Friday, February 06, 2009

Pakistan: Swat - A Paradise in Peril

By Adam Pal in Lahore
Thursday, 05 February 2009

Swat is one of the most beautiful valleys of Pakistan but today it is being ravaged by the barbarism of fanatics decrying the rottenness of a decaying capitalist system. Today the Taliban are governing this beautiful valley. Sections of the Pakistan Army under the guise of a military operation against them are in fact supporting this fundamentalist reaction. On top of this, the aggression of the imperialist forces in the name of the so-called "war on terror" propels these forces further.



Map of the North-Western Frontier Province in Pakistan with Swat highlighted. Made by Pahari Sahib.

The beautiful valley of Swat, which was a few years back a tourist's paradise with its eye-catching landscapes, is now a haven for criminal gangsters joining the Taliban forces. In Lower Swat one can see terraced fields, startlingly green rice paddies, abundant fruit orchards, and views of snow-capped peaks. In Upper Swat the river narrows into turbulent gorges, the mountains tower above and pine forests cling defiantly to the slopes. It is an excellent place for fishing and climbing. For the historian and amateur archaeologist it has several thousand archaeological sites spanning 5,000 years of history waiting to be explored. The other side of the picture, however, is the fact that the 1.7 million population of this picturesque valley is living a life of hell. Nearly 700,000 have emigrated to other places or have been forced to move away.

The Taliban forces led by Fazlullah are imposing the most barbaric laws on the local people and are slaughtering the innocents for not obeying their obscurantist orders. Fear reigns supreme. The Islamic militants have banned girls' education, forced women indoors and have resorted to murder to enforce their version of Islam.

The Green Chowk (Crossing) in Mingora, which is the main city in the valley is now called the Zibah khana Chowk (Slaughter Crossing) as one or two slaughtered bodies of innocent people of the valley are hanged their daily from an electricity pole. A note accompanies the body which says that whoever dares remove the body before sunset will get the same treatment.



Fundamentalist forces are terrorising the beutiful valley of Swat. Photo by Scott Christian.

These Islamic fundamentalists regularly blast government girls' schools and shops which sell Audio and Video CD's. Also the barbers are slaughtered if they shave anybody in the valley. Many other similar barbaric acts take place every other day.

According to the Dawn of February 3, 2009: "The journey upwards from Mardan these days is forbidding. The entire route is a picture of utter desolation. Fear of the unknown has overtaken a place fabled for its fertile fields and majestic mountains. Even a flying visit is enough to fill one with a sense of foreboding that religious extremists would overrun the valley before long. Most people, especially those living in urban areas, seem to have lost the will to live."

The Pakistan Army has started an operation named "Rah-i-Haq" against the Taliban forces, but in actual fact it is aimed against the civilian population and is giving strength to these forces of black reaction. This operation was launched on July 29, 2007. At the launching of this operation the spokesperson of Pakistan Army Brigadier Javed Nasir had said that there are only 700 to 800 Taliban in the Valley and that they could easily handle them.

Now the Operation is in its third phase with two full divisions of the Pakistan Army, the 17th and 37th, in the Valley and yet the conflict is nowhere near an end. According to a conversation with a reporter of Aaj TV in Batkhela, the presence of 45,000 army personnel in the valley would be more than enough to handle the less than 1000 Taliban fighters. The Army is using Gunship helicopters, heavy artillery and mortar guns. But still the Taliban are holding the key areas in the Valley.

The main leader of these fundamentalists, Maulana Fazlullah, systematically uses FM Radios to convey his orders and sermons to the people of the Valley. Four FM Radio channels are being run in separate areas in which messages of the Maulana are conveyed by his deputies. Separate broadcasts are being aired for the Malakand and Shamozai, Matta and Khawaza Khela areas in Swat.



Taliban forces in Swat are imposing taxes on local traders and businessmen. Photo by Scott Christian.

Despite the presence of the Army, the Taliban are spreading their message in the same way as they did, and still do, in Swat. The medium of the message is fear. In fact, fear itself is the message.

In Malakand Shah Dauran a deputy of Fazlullah can be heard in the evenings from around 8.30pm to 11.00pm. In his broadcast Shah Dauran first points out various people in the area who are not obeying obscurantist Islamic laws and announces punishments for them. These punishments are carried out the very next day which include death. Then he announces the names of those who have confessed their mistakes and have come back to the "right" path. In the end there is a segment of "Good News" in which news of bomb blasts and suicide attacks on various places is given. The programme ends with songs of holy war. Shah Dauran has also given his mobile phone numbers where he can be reached and complaints can be placed.

The transmission of radio channels, the continuous supply of arms, ammunition and strategic support for the Taliban and their minimal losses clearly show that sections of the Pakistan Army and Intelligence agencies have no intention of curbing this savagery, rather they support them by all means.

According to newspaper reports, so far 207 Islamic fundamentalist militants have been killed while 325 security personnel and 2000 civilians have lost their lives. According to the Dawn newspaper, "The Maulana's followers hold sway over no less than 80 percent of the Swat valley."

Taliban forces in Swat are also imposing taxes on local traders and businessmen and are operating their own courts. Also mobile companies are paying Rs 30,000 (US$400) per month for each mobile tower in the valley to the Taliban for security. The civilian population is also being charged taxes in the form of cash payments or in the form of arms.

These Taliban forces are actually local criminal elements who have been sponsored by the ISI (Pakistani secret services) and the American CIA to disguise themselves as fundamentalists and ravage this beautiful area only to threaten the workers and peasants of Pushtoonkhwa and curb any form of resistance against this exploitative system. Also this area has become a safe haven for criminals of the whole region and they are coming in big numbers to take their share of the plunder.



The main leader of the fundamentalists, Maulana Fazlullah, systematically uses radio broadcasts to convey his orders and sermons to the people of the Valley. Photo by salimswati.

According to the local people most of these are seasoned kidnappers, car lifters and dacoits who are now part of the Taliban forces. One of the commanders of Fazlullah in Swat is Rahimdad, alias Kuch, who was a famous inter-provincial car thief a few years back.

It has been reported that when a Union Council Administrator in Dheri, Malakand, Ahmed Hussain Khan went to Swat for some personal reasons he met there with Bacha who has been known as a hardened criminal in the area and been to jail in Batkhela several times. Ahmed Hussein Khan told the press that Bacha told him that he is now really enjoying things more since becoming a part of the Taliban. He reportedly gave Khan US$12,000 and some jewellery to handover to Bacha's brother. Also these criminals are deeply involved in drug trade.

It is common knowledge that the secret service agencies like the ISI are deeply involved in the methods, strategy and planning of these fundamentalist forces. Apparently all this destruction of homes, schools, shops and the imposing of reactionary laws may seem as utter madness and yet there is a method in this madness. These forces are trying their best to gather support of the primitive layers of society to propel their agenda further and move forward into the urbanized areas. They seldom attack petty criminals like pickpockets, robbers and brothel houses, so as to gain the sympathy of these primitive layers. But the indignation of the common people towards these hardened criminals is increasing every day.

These reactionary fundamentalists are trying their best to destroy the centuries old cultural and aesthetic aspects of this society. One beautiful aspect of this culture is the classical folk dance which is performed at weddings and other cultural ceremonies. The artists living in the valley are renowned all over the region and have been associated with this profession for many generations. The most famous of all these artistes are from Bhand Mohalla (artistes locality) in Mingora city where not only dancers but also musicians have been living for centuries. The Taliban not only have destroyed this locality but they have also slaughtered Shabnam, a famous dancer. She was popular with men and women alike. Four other dancers were also killed. Now most of the dancers and musicians have migrated to Karachi and other cities and are living a terrible life. The barbarism in Swat is spilling over into the neighbouring areas, especially Malakand which is a gateway to the whole region.

The Malakand agency lies at a strategically important position as it acts as a gateway to Swat, Dir, Chitral and Bajaur. It is in the Lower Swat region amidst high mountains thick with evergreen olive and pine trees. It stands at the exit of a pass known as the Malakand Pass or Darrah Malakand.

The Taliban have threatened the official courts in Batkhela, the main city of Malakand, demanding they stop their functioning within 15 days. Also army check points are starting to appear on the main road, which actually heralds the onslaught of Taliban forces.

CD shop owners are being threatened and orders are being announced from FM radio to obey the orders of the Taliban or face dire consequences. The sporadic killing of innocent people and barbaric acts of intimidating women are already taking place in the area. Lawyers have been warned not to appear in court and that "Whoever will appear before court will be our enemy". Already they have set up 73 Sharia courts to administer "speedy justice". These courts summon people by phone, threatening violators with death.

Madrassahs



Madrassahs are mushrooming these days in every nook and corner of Swat and Malakand where poor people send their children to study. These Madrassahs became a source of income in the period of the Afghan Jihad (against Soviet forces) when millions of dollars were pumped in by the American government. These dollars are still coming in, mainly through the drug trade and other criminal activities. Hundreds of children are being sent there by parents who cannot afford the food and clothing of these children. These Madrassahs are being used by the ISI to recruit suicide bombers.

The suicide bombers from these Madrassahs are also now being used to sell services to those who can pay hefty amounts to settle their personal disputes. One such bomber was used in the Bhakkar bomb blast in South Punjab to settle a personal score by a local who had bought this suicide bomber for 12 million rupees. According to some local people some suicide bombers are also instructed to blow them up as a trial for prospective buyers!



Madrassahs, where poor families send their children, are being used by the secret service to recruit suicide bombers. Photo by *Muhammad* on Flickr.

This "industry" of terrorism has been flourishing quite rapidly since the 'War on Terrorism' was started by the Bush administration in America. The sale of arms and suicide bomber jackets is helping to expand this "industry" and new methods are being developed to increase the sales of various forms of terror.

Drone attacks by American and NATO forces in the Tribal areas are aggravating this war and are keeping the sale of bombs, fighter planes and drones growing. A Station Headquarter Officer in Malakand has claimed in the press that "if given a chance I can end the rein of the Taliban of Swat in one week, otherwise I may be hanged".

With the rottenness of capitalist system and a crisis-ridden economy, the multinationals and industrialists in Pakistan may use these forces as a threat to curb workers' rights and to threaten them if they dare hold any protests. In Swat and the adjacent areas, political activities are almost banned and the activists of left political parties are being targeted. Some have been killed and others have migrated to Islamabad or Peshawar.

No mainstream political party has any agenda or solution to this conflict and they are all capitulating, though reluctantly, to these forces. One of the main reasons for this is their compromise with this rotten capitalist system and their slavish attitude to the Army generals and the imperialist masters.

The ANP, the Pushtoon nationalist party, is currently in power in Pushtoonkhwa, along with the PPP as a coalition partner. Also in the Federal government both are collaborating with each other, along with the Islamic fundamentalist party JUI-F. Neither the PPP nor the ANP can offer a way out of this crisis which is a threat to humanity itself; rather they are proposing various ways of compromise with these reactionary forces. In Malakand, which is traditionally a stronghold of the PPP, all the MPs elected in the elections last year have fled from the area.

The only force that is giving not only resistance to this dogmatic force but also offering a solution, are the comrades of the IMT in Pushtoonkhwa. Working in the most perilous conditions, they are patiently explaining that the root cause of all this menace is the disintegrating capitalist system which is imposing these forces on humanity.

They are also encouraging people to raise their voice against unemployment, price hikes and other basic issues like healthcare and education. The inability of the system to provide these basic necessities is not due to any lack of resources but to the lack of planning which can only be done under Socialism.

The comrades of the IMT are working inside the PPP and also in trade unions of various departments and are also organizing the unemployed youth of the area on the platform of the BNT (Unemployed Youth Movement) to wage a political struggle against these reactionary forces. In this struggle, imperialism, the Pakistani state apparatus, the Army and the Taliban are all against them. And yet, the forces of revolutionary socialism are growing in the area. This can be seen from the fact that in the year 2008 after the general elections of February the only political activities carried out in Malakand were those of the comrades of IMT. They celebrated May Day, a big demonstration against price hikes on June 2 and also a rally in support of the Venezuelan and Bolivian revolutions, and another against US aggression in September in Batkhela when they burnt US flags.

The masses are learning fast from their own experiences and are listening to the ideas of socialism. That is why the only threat the Taliban really feel are from the genuine forces of socialism. During the Friday prayers sermons are given in Malakand and Swat condemning the ideas of Karl Marx and Lenin and attacking the theory of surplus value to warn the people to keep away from these ideas. In spite of all this, the struggle of the comrades is still going on amid serious threats but they are waging a serious fight.

When the masses will begin to move they will smash these forces of barbarism and will stand up against all aggression of the State and fundamentalist forces. The movement of hundreds of thousands of poor and downtrodden peasants and workers will not listen to sermons or feel threatened by weapons but will move on to challenge this system. There is a history and tradition of such movements in this region, especially during the 1968-69 revolution. A volcanic eruption from the depths of society will shake the standing army from inside and the ferment in the rank and file will grow to become a revolt.

The comrades are patiently explaining the ideas of revolutionary Marxism and have remained in the area against all odds and threats to their lives. In the coming period they will be able to lead the masses towards the complete transformation of society. On this basis and united with the movement of workers, youth and peasants of other areas of Pakistan, will lay the basis for a move towards a socialist revolution in Pakistan.

RENEGADE EYE

331 comments:

1 – 200 of 331   Newer›   Newest»
Ben Heine said...

Most interesting post, Renegade, well done

Desert Mystery said...

Renegade Eye,

As a Pakistani, I can attest to how ruthlessly the left has been completely obliterated in Pakistan, and how the current situation can be directly linked to that.

A strong left is the only cure to the Taliban and all the other reactionary elements.

Some of us, even look with envy at the Quasi-Maoist regime in Nepal, as even attaining that seems so far off.

Nevin said...

Renegade Eye, When I was reading your post, I was wondering how come you knew so much about that area... now I realize you are Pakistani... :)

Turkey has the same problem. The left has been completely wiped out through the CIA supported coupes in the past, especially the most ruthless one of them all, is the 1980 coupe.

Part of the reason why Turkey is still struggling with human rights issues and fundamentalist Islam is due to the fact that the "left" is extremely weak... The balancing powers of both sides are not there.

Among the Turks, it is a well known fact that the 1980 coupe resulted in a huge "brain drain". My parents were one of them.. they left the country in october 1980, right after the coupe....

The faith of the developing world has been much the same if you ask me.... :(

The Pagan Temple said...

If somebody can get close enough to Fastullah to take a picture of his ugly raghead mug, why is he still breathing? This isn't rocket science. It would be easy to end this so-called war. Kill him and any other fundamentalist leader that rears his head. Target them all for assassination, along with all those around him, in the upper echelons of Taliban and other such leaderships.

You can't just stop there. Bomb the Madrassas, and make it clear throughout the Muslim world that if you send your child to one you are sending him to the slaughterhouse.

Then, wipe out all the mosques in which the imams preach messages of hate. Don't try to wait until they are alone to try to spare their families. Take the opposite approach. Go out of your way to make sure their families are with them.

Finally, when a group of radicals take to the streets and take it to the point that they are engaging in property damage, in burning, breaking, endangering lives, etc., let it be known they will not be met with tear gas, rubber bullets, and high powered water hoses (though this in combination with a little soap would not be a bad idea probably) but with real bullets.

Bottom line, if you want a quick end to any war, don't worry about the foot soldiers, target the generals and the leaders. One by one, group by group, pick them off.

Then, if a group of elitist Euro-trash (like for example a certain group of judges in Spain) get it in their heads they are going to prosecute you for war crimes, give these enablers a dose of the same medicine. Wipe them out. They have de facto made an aggressive declaration of war. Respond appropriately. Kill them.

It might seem radical and hot-headed, but remember, the purpose is to eliminate the source of the violence. It wouldn't take too many deaths before radical imams would suddenly moderate their positions, for the sake of their survival and their families. Without them, any such radical, violent movement will die quickly.

Tere said...

East is not free, and live down the West think they have freedom and we are in the hands of the capital

Tere said...

My daughter and her husband spend four or eight months in Pattaya in Thailand What do you know?

FJ said...

These Taliban forces are actually local criminal elements who have been sponsored by the ISI (Pakistani secret services) and the American CIA to disguise themselves as fundamentalists and ravage this beautiful area only to threaten the workers and peasants of Pushtoonkhwa and curb any form of resistance against this exploitative system.

Right...

The USA is backing the Taliban in Pakistan because it hates "leftists", and America only pretends to fight the Taliban across the border in Afghanistan so that they can kill Afghan Leftists.

I'd keep going, but this is one non sequitur that only a Leftist could possibly follow.

The Pagan Temple said...

FJ-

I can actually believe all of that to a point. The idea that the Taliban there are comprised of criminal elements is not a stretch at all. The idea that they are sponsored at least in part by elements of ISI is almost common knowledge. If there is CIA involvement, this is probably just as aspect of covert intelligence gathering, so it is possible that they are putting in some seed money in order to establish themselves. Again, not beyond the range of reason. It's just a matter of how you interpret these factors.

Also, you might want to consider that the CIA is believed by many to be a leftist government agency to begin with. Leftist that is in the sense that it is comprised mainly of liberal Democrats, Democratic Party appointees, and just your typical government bureaucrat. The CIA has been accused of doing everything within its power to undermine the Bush Administration, including but not limited to the events that led to the Valerie Plame fiasco.

So yes, I can believe that part too. The CIA, like all government agencies, is not trustworthy and needs to be kept on a long leash just like all the others.

FJ said...

You mean a "short" leash, don't you Pagan?

And I don't believe it for a minute. None of it.

The Pagan Temple said...

Yeah, I did mean a short leash, and I caught that but left it alone, because after all, some agencies need a shorter leash than the others, and given the function of the CIA maybe we can justify giving them a bit longer leash to keep from interfering unduly in their legitimate operations. They still need to be accountable.

You don't even believe the part about the ISI? That's almost a proven fact, that there are elements within Pakistani intelligence services that support the Taliban. The only question involves who, and how extensive is the level of involvement.

As for the criminal element part, look at how the Taliban has profited from heroin. That would not be possible without a distribution network that almost has to involve organized crime syndicates.

The CIA is just one of those necessary evils inherent in any government. It's impossible for a government agency to be evil or good, just like it's impossible for a gun to be evil or good. It is a tool that can be used for good or bad, and all it takes is for a handful of agents to go off the rails to do some real damage. By and large, they are a government bureaucracy, no better or worse than the Department of Education, Health and Human Services, etc. As such, they are to be trusted no further than you could throw any particular agent, which I doubt would be very far.

Bear in mind I'm certainly not defending the Islamists, or minimizing their contribution to the problem. To me, the idea that a radical Islamic fundamentalist might be described as a "criminal element" is not at all contradictory.

Renegade Eye said...

Ben Heine: Thank you for visiting.

Tere: I asked Celinejulie from Thailand, to answer your question. Celinejulie has a blog that I believe you would enjoy, and lives in Thailand.

The people who occupied the airport are reactionary. They are opposed to the poor voting. Only reactionaries are allowed to occupy airports.

Desert Mystery: The government of Nepal, is following the Stalinist/Maoist two stage revolution. It is a capitalist government. It just banned strikes.

In Pakistan you should join The Struggle.

The Economist magazine just wrote that the main threat to the PPP leadership, is the Marxist wing of the party. That is The Struggle group.

Your blog seems closed to comments. The comment box doesn't open.

Nevin: This is a brilliant Turkish lefty blog.

I'm from Minneapolis, MN. The group that I belong to, is strongest in Pakistan, with thousands of members, who speak every dialect, in every city, school and union there.

I think in Turkey, the main issue is Kurdish autonomy.

FJ: It is hard if not impossible for you to grasp contradiction.

The CIA backed Islamists against the left, way before the USSR invaded Afghanistan.

The US has a strategy similar to General Petraeus's. Doing business with the Taliban is nothing new for the US.

Did you know the CIA were instrumental in mullahs taking over in Iran, once it became clear the Shah was done?

Pagan: You are correct that the CIA are a liberal institution, as opposed to conservative. In academia Praeger Publishing is their outlet.

The CIA is doing something as General Petraeus did in Iraq.

The Taliban is not Al- Quaeda. Even Karzai supported the Taliban at one time.

Eventually the US will have to negotiate on a high level with them. Heck Russia can even pull the plug from the US. Nonmilitary goods are shipped through Russia.

The Pagan Temple said...

No doubt there will be talks in one form or another with high-level Taliban officials, if only through intermediaries. That would be a prerequisite to any kind of potential peace deal. How can you propose solutions otherwise? That's nothing new.

What I don't think anybody gets, or perhaps they just don't want to get, is the degree of suffering the Taliban will have to be afflicted with before they can be trusted to negotiate in good faith. With these fanatics, it amounts to putting them in a position where they have to surrender unconditionally before you can believe a word they say. It amounts to us telling them either surrender and step down or you are all going to die, and what's left of your family will have to take their chances with the general population.

Winning hearts and minds of that general population is a major step as well, but that doesn't change the facts that the Taliban have to be brought dragging and screaming to the negotiating table, because their hearts and minds are definitely not for sale and can certainly not be won over.

Of course we are nowhere near that point yet where we can break them down the way we most certainly must, and may never get there.

I started to say something about the Russian Mafia probably being to a great extent responsible for the opium trade that originates from Afghanistan, but I don't really know, though that's an easy enough assumption to make. What I do know is they have to be working through some kind of organized crime syndicate of that order. They aren't processing, smuggling, and selling heroin in bulk quantities all by themselves. They are too isolated for that.

It's like if I happened upon a cache of stolen goods or drugs. Sure, I could conceivably sell it, but I would need an intermediary, because otherwise I just don't have the connections, nor do I even begin to know what the shit I'm doing. If I tried to sell it by myself I'm going to end up busted pretty quick. You have to know the right people and have to have the right connections, and that is all the more true if you are responsible for the number one source of world heroin traffic.

The CIA? Nothing they do would surprise me. They perform a necessary function, but that doesn't mean they are always the good guys. They can and have been duplicitous in a lot of different areas. They are also notoriously inefficient in many regards. I think no one was more surprised than they were when the Ayatollah Khomeini turned out to be so virulently anti-American and anti-Western. In that case they were not so much duplicitous as just stupid. The Shah was out of favor in the West, and the Ayatollah was seen as a potential leverage to engender Iranian good will over time.

Had they known how it would turn out, the Ayatollah would have never left Paris. He would have died of a "heart attack" or a "stroke". People have either forgotten or perhaps never were aware of the level of US government involvement with the Mujahadeen. A lot of people assume it started under Reagan. It actually started under Carter. Zhbigniew Brezhinsky actually made a trip where he met with the Mujahadeen with promises of aid, which he delivered. Reagan just upped the ante.

It's quite a leap though to say they supported the Taliban. The Mujahadeen were made up of various disparate elements, many of whom formed rival factions once the Soviets were finally out of the picture.

By and large, the CIA are like any other government agency. They are first and foremost bureaucrats, and like and other group of bureaucrats, their number one priority is job security, and to secure government funding. To that end, they will support any policy or foreign leader necessary to achieve their aims, only in their case they have the ability, means, and resources to go about that overtly or covertly.

George H W Bush even talked about using them to spy on foreign businesses that were in competition with US businesses.

They have been valuable in some regards and done some good things, but for every good thing they've done, they've done something bad, and the same holds true of the FBI. Think Robert Hanson, and Ames, for just two examples. We probably don't even know the half of it. For that matter, neither do they.

Mehmet Çagatay said...

Hello Ren,

Thank you that you describing my blog as "brilliant", although I don't deserve such a generous praise for the reason that being an idiot most of the times, I will try to update my blog in a more regular basis.

In addition to Nevin's account about the Turkish left, I think the central problem is the left in Turkey is Turkish. I'm not here simply mean the unavoidable geological limitation or linguistic identification, but the essential aftermath of the coups in Turkey is not the suppression of the left but the transformation of the residues to everyday state ideology (I used 'the state' here as Badiou, indicating both the State and the existing state of affairs). Therefore, the contemporary tendency of Turkish left is the identification with the exclusory, (constructed with the exclusion of different ethnic groups) name "the Turk" as strict as any ideology in the guise of patriotism. It is no coincidence that the programme of the Turkish CP emphasizes the necessity to cultivate the patriotic consciousness among working class. This name serves as a kind of Lacanian the name of the father for Turkish left, which guarantees their consistent place in the symbolic order by prohibiting which has already been deemed as impossible. This is the reason why I hate Turks who are pretending to be Turks, who are identifying with the name of the oppression.

Best,

FJ said...

The PPP controls the Pakistani government. You're saying that they're supporting the Taliban in the fight against Leftists like themselves.

And Obama controls the US government and they're supporting the Taliban against Leftists themselves as well.

This proves one thing certain, "Never trust a Leftist".

celinejulie said...

Hi Renegade Eye and Tere

As for your question if it is safe in Thailand or not, I guess you will be safe in Thailand as long as you don't comment publicly on Thai politics or on some institutions in Thailand. Though I hate the current government of Thailand, I accept the fact that the situation is relatively calm now because this government is supported by the military. Some bad things are happening in Thailand now, but these bad things happen to good people who are involved in politics. So I guess if you are tourists who don't comment publicly on Thai politics, you will be safe. :-)

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: In the post, it makes clear the actual number of fundamentalists in this border area, are not very many, compared to all the supposed opposition.

The CIA exclusively supported the most extremist Muslims. I found that out from reading Karzai's writings. Islamism spread to places like Algeria as well.

FJ: Leftist has no meaning.

Again you don't contradiction. The PPP leadership is afraid of both its Marxist wing and Islamists within Pakistan's security forces.

The masses know the PPP as Benadir Bhuttos father's party, that had a socialist program.

Mehmet Çagatay: Really interesting about Turkey.

Celinejulie: Thank you for answering Tere's question.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

*cough*

Just to draw attention to Pagan's use of the racist and inappropriate term "raghead".

The Pagan Temple said...

Correction, Daniel, we all have our prejudices, but Raghead is not a "racist" term, because it doesn't have anything to do with "race".

Nor for that matter does it even necessarily have to apply to the religion of Islam in general, just to those fundamentalist factions that want to impose their way of life on others, and who are far more bigoted themselves than I could ever come close to being. They are not deserving of anyone's well-meaning though misguided defense.

To make it clear, a Muslim who might be said to be within the mainstream of that religion, while he might wear a "rag" on his head, as a sign of his religion and/or culture does not fit the term.

Whereas someone such as the "gentleman" in question is a dirty fucking raghead. Hope that clears it up. Or at least I think we can agree that the term "racist" does not apply here. Just sayin'.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

It's a racial term, stop using it becuase it invalidates all your points in one fail swoop.

Links on the use of the offensive term here, read them and then stop using it.

Racial slur.

Prince Harry nearly as much of a racist as you.

Final nail in coffin.

Renegade Eye said...

Daniel H-G: Reactionaries use a tactic, where they deny this or that ethnic slur is about race.

Technically when Pagan used the word, it was race free. It being an ethnic slur can't be wiggled around.

Like when they say Palestine doesn't exist, when challenged as racist, they say Palestinians aren't a race. It's an ethnic slur. No Zionist leader would dare say that.

Objectively words like that aren't technically racist. The reactionaries are aware of the wiggle room they have. The thoughts behind the words are clear.

The Pagan Temple said...

Islam is not a race. Also, it is not an ethnicity. Radical fundamentalist Islam is therefore neither of those.

Nor are Americans and Westerners "Great Satans".

Tit for tat. I'm not interested in proving I'm "better than them". I'm interested in proving I can give as good as I get, which is all radical Islamists respect. Do note here that I specify radical Islamists.

Harry is loads of fun. Unlike most elitist Brits, he is an actual human being. His older brother, and for that matter his doltish father, should both have the integrity to step aside and allow him to take the throne when the time comes.

Charles and his older son William either one would be hard-pressed to replace the charming and gracious Elizabeth and her husband Philip, one of the world's true remaining gentlemen.

Political correctness needs to take a hike, and Harry sets an admirable example of how this can and should be done.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

It's not about Islam, it's about the fact that 'raghead' is an offensive, racial slur.

Simple as.

As for Harry being "loads of fun" he may well be that, be he is also a fucking twat and a right nob, which is cool.

You do realise he comes from the ultimate British elite don't you?

As for Philip, the man's a fucking racist Greek bigot, like you, apart from I doubt you're Greek.


This won't be the first time I say this but political correctness does not exist.

Be racist by all means but have the strength of conviction to stand by your bigotry and wear it with pride, rather than flip-flopping on the issue.

The Pagan Temple said...

I'm not Greek, never claimed to be Greek. I'm Irish, in fact, so I don't think you want to get me going on your limey ass. Do you read me, bloke head?

(pausing here, waiting for DHG to return from purchasing a new computer monitor).

I like Philip and Elizabeth, and Harry, all the elite business to the contrary. I don't judge royalty the way I judge the truly political elites. I judge them as individuals. A political elite is something that maintains the mere appearance of humanity, and they are all pretty much alike. They know how to manipulate you and they know they have your number. Wise up.

And again, I am not a racist. I just refuse to recognize a common humanity with people that commit atrocities against real people. Grow a spine and demand that your "leaders" (by the nose) kick these people out of your country. I'm not talking about every Muslim or Arab there, either, I'm talking about the ones that preach radical hatred of the West. As long as you are willing to put up with that and make excuses for you, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously-including them, by the way.

Your new backbone awaits.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Irish chip on the shoulder, now it all makes sense.

I never said you were Greek, I said Philip is Greek. Please read before spewing.

(Waits for Pasting Table to learn to read)

The royal family, are, quite frankly, a waste of space and a drain on resources, however we don't seem to be able to get the heart to put them out of their misery, so it goes.

As for wising up, anyone who is a fan of royalty in the modern age is indeed in need of some wise words, I think you have a need to be dominated and its a role I'm willing to fullfil.

And again, you are a racist becuase you used the racist term raghead, along with your previous use of Paki paints a grand picture.

Your attempt to dehumanise people by referring to them as not real people is alarming but ties in perfectly with your prejudiced and hateful world view. And as soon as anyone mentions 'kick these people out of your country' I am reminded of the far-right political parties that blight the UK and some parts of Europe.

Thankfully, these voices at at the fringe, ridiculed and rightly dismissed as ignorant, hateful bores but I do admire that they wear this badge with pride, unlike you, who pretend to be something else.

Your sense of decency, human rights common sense awaits bigot.

Ducky's here said...

Geez, visit a Marxist site and find someone going ga-ga over the Royal Family.

Ducky's here said...

Correction, Daniel, we all have our prejudices, but Raghead is not a "racist" term, because it doesn't have anything to do with "race".

-----------------------

Would bigot make you happier?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Tell me about it ducky.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Yes it does duck, it is a generic term for people of a Middle Eastern, Arabic origin as evidenced in my links.

So it's both racist and bigoted.

YAY!

Cheers!

The Pagan Temple said...

Come on, Beak, give me a break, you're killing me with this sock-puppet shit. The jig's up.

Daniel, one of your links as "evidence" gave an example-

"That brown person is a raghead".

HaHa what in the hell is that supposed to prove? Anybody can make up an "example" to prove their point. Just like anybody can declare that "raghead" is a racist term applied to Middle Easterners. Says who? I know what I meant.

By the way, after you pointed out to me that Paki is considered a racist term, I explained my error, and how I used the term innocently, and have since ceased to use it from that point on.

And again, I didn't suggest you throw all Arabs and Muslims out of your country, but only those who preach hatred of the West, meaning especially radical imams and their followers. Not ALL Arabs and Muslims.

If that makes me a "bigot" or a "racist" then yes I will wear that badge proudly.

The royal family is a tradition going back nearly a thousand years, and it brings in a lot of tourist money. It's not like they actually have real power. If they were going around acting like some past monarchs I could see your point, but they don't have that kind of power anymore.

I heard once that the reigning monarch can take power in the event of a national emergency, but I don't know if that's true or not. But somebody needs to, if true, I assume they are trained for the responsibility.

Count your blessings, you sure don't have much else on that sad little island.

Renegade Eye said...

It doesn't do you good, using language that is useless for making a point, and diverts discussion.

The effect of the language is apparent by the way this thread is ending.

I believe degrading your enemy is wrong.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

At last you admit you're a racist and a bigot, cool, we got there, 29 comments too late but we got there.

As for your misinformed stuff on the royal family all I can say is you must really dig interbreeding and reduced gene pool fucking. Whatever, each to their own, just because you secretly want the US to be a monarchy so you can have your ubermensch domination kicks.

And as for 'sad little island' dear oh dear, is this all you have in your enfeebled armoury?

What has become of you?

The Pagan Temple said...

Come on, Daniel, don't you know how it would make you look to the average person, to refuse to agree to the wisdom of kicking RADICAL ISLAMISTS off your island. That's not racist or bigoted, and for you to even entertain the notion that it is, is no more or no less an incendiary tactic than my referring to them as "ragheads".

When I refer to kicking such people out of your country, I am specifically talking about people who advocate blowing up buses and other forms of public transportation, or killing innocent Brits in other ways, for no other reason than they are supposedly conducting a "holy jihad".

It's bad enough that you are doubtless too squeamish and weak-kneed to execute such people like that are they are found guilty in a fair trial. That's fine, we can debate the merits of the death penalty, but for you to act like it's wrong to expel these people from your island is the height of foolishness.

And it's precisely why I use terms like Raghead. I wasn't realy going after them, I was going after PEOPLE LIKE YOU whom I knew would object, just so I could make this point-pay attention now-

Until you start acting in a rational manner in dealing with such human excrement, you have no standing with which to criticize me for using such slurs.

Every Brit who dies from an assault conducted by one of these fanatics, their blood is on the hands of those who refuse to purge their island of said fanatics. That would evidently include you, Daniel Hoffman Gill.

The Pagan Temple said...

By the way, here's another point. Your government actually did expel one of these radical imams from Britain, a man who habitually referred to the 9/11 hijackers as "The Magnificent Seventeen" and otherwise spoke of them in glowing terms of praise, a man who advocated the exact same kinds of things I am referring to. He finally went too far, far enough that even your weak kneed government had enough and expelled him from your nation.

Okay, here's my question. Judging from your previous statements, am I right in assuming that you would have objected to expelling this pile of breathing filth?

Just answer the damn question yes or no, and that will be sufficient.

For my part, I not only agree they were right, they should have done it long before they did, and they should act in a similar fashion towards every other individual that acts as he did.

So how is that racist or bigoted, other than in the thought processes of the feeble minded and the politically correct? (yes there is such a thing).

Sometimes I think your country would be better off if they would drop the pretense of democracy-and that is evidently all it is, a pretense-and go back to the days of the true monarchs. As blood-thirsty and barbaric as a good many of them were, at least they had spines and a respectable pair of balls sufficient to never put up with this insane crap you are such an ardent apologist for.

FJ said...

Pagan,

You can call Danny, Poofter-boy and he won't get upset. He only becomes hypersensitive when the slurs involve people who have learned to hate racist British apartheid loving colon-izers like himself.

He thinks he's performing penance for his ancestor's sins... and boring everyone else in the process.

FJ said...

Danny, are you by any chance related to George Wigg, the Labour Party MP made famous for his, "The wogs begin at Calais," comment?

The Pagan Temple said...

FJ, the way I look at it, once Muslims become the majority population of Europe, assuming current trends continue, it won't make a dime's worth of difference. The only difference is we will be trading in one set of arrogant elitist know-it-alls for another set.

I only feel bad for the appreciable percentage of well-meaning European citizens who have to live (or die) with the consequences, assuming a large percentage of the future European Muslim majority are the same percentage of fundamentalists as the usual Muslim populations.

The Vatican, The Louvre, Buckingham Palace-wow, they will all make damned impressive mosques one of these days. Don't worry though, the bonfires from all that exquisite artwork shouldn't last too awful long.

Larry Gambone said...

Farm Boy, when you quote something at least understand what you are quoting. George Wiggs famous phrase was an attack upon the Conservatives and their racism, not his personal belief. Twit!

Larry Gambone said...

Muslim fundis taking over Europe = paranoia. Same paranoia as the fear that Catholics would take over the US in the 19th Century or the Commies in the 1950's. Meanwhile the world is being run into the ground by corporate gangsters and we are supposed to worry about things like this...

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

Just because you don't like the sound of something or because it doesn't fit in with your pre-conceived notions of how things should be, doesn't make it "paranoid".

If you can accept that current demographic trends at least suggest the possibility of a majority Muslim population within a large portion of Europe, then it's not that much of a stretch to go from there to the possibility that in at least some places the fundamentalists might be a major influence, or for that matter the controlling power.

Where is the paranoia, that Europe might be majority Muslim, or that fundamentalists might acquire power? I say neither.

This is especially true when you consider that the radical fundamentalists Islamists are probably also a numerical minority within such places as-oh, I don't know, Afghanistan maybe?

Is their power and influence in Afghanistan some kind of paranoid delusion on the part of us that recognize it? If not there, why not Europe? Because Larry Gambone says Europe is going to be a haven of socialism and the radical Muslims are going to fall in line with what he wants?

Question-how many radical Muslims are out-breeding socialist Europeans as we speak>?

Larry Gambone said...

Two things here Pagan. The first is that it can be a mistake to extrapolate from existing conditions into the future. This is especially true when you are dealing with something as complex as human behaviour. Remember, the US was supposed to be over-run with Catholics who would then destroy the republic and replace it with a papist theocracy. What really happened was the Catholic birth-rate declined and they became as patriotic as the WASPS who feared them. Who today in the US other than a handful of nuts worries about Catholics?

The second point is that there needs to be a discussion over fundamentalism itself - its causes, what can strengthen or weaken it, and irs ultimate future. But that is something I will save for another time.

FJ said...

Gambone,

Thanks for pointing out that Danny-boy is just as self-righteous and cynical as the race baiter George Wiggs was. Wiggs' fought straw men wherever he went, and they have since come to define him, not any position held by an actual adversary, just as Danny-boy's guilt-ridden sphincter contractions on the subject have only serve to reveal his own psychotic compulsion to seek redemption through loud denunciations of any and all "hyper-perceived" expressions of racism and pursue absolution through loud professions of political support for magical negroes of all stripes, foreign and domestic.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, here is what I said in my reply to FJ-

"once Muslims become the majority population of Europe, assuming current trends continue"-

Note the part where I said assuming current trends continue.

As for how you can deal with radical fundamentalists and what causes them, that doesn't change what is the now, and it's really one hell of an assumption to think you can change them in the future, a lot more so than my statement that-the way trends are going now-they will be the majority population of Europe.

Current trends are what they are when it comes to projected future populations. There are no such formulas for dealing with radicals other than killing them or imprisoning them. If you know of such a way, please share it with the world, as I don't think anybody else has caught on yet.

FJ-

When Daniel plays the race card, it is a tactic. No need in making it out to be any more than what it is. I know it's a tactic because I specified all too clearly that I was talking about radical Islamists when I said Europeans, in this case Brits, should kick them out of their country.

He refused to recognize my specific statement to that effect, and accused me pretty much of encouraging kicking out all Muslims, period. Thus, he is engaged in the tactic of playing the race card, or perhaps better put, the racist card.

Or, another way to look at it, is he is actually accusing me of racism for wanting to kick out radical Muslims, something only the most truly unhinged could actually believe. I honestly don't think he believes that, so there again, it's a tactic-a very disingenuous tactic at that.

Another thing you have to realize about Daniel Hoffman Gill is, he is an actor, evidently one of some skill. Thus, it is imperative for his career goals that he remain on the good side of all the good little leftist twits that frequent the world of the theater. The last thing he needs is to come across as a moderate or-gasp-a conservative, because the powers that be in the world of film and stage are predominantly leftist, either socialist or social liberals like Democrats.

Even now, probably as we speak, Daniel Hoffman Gill is engaged in a starring role in a comedy play which purports to prove that, yes Britain, Polish people are human beings just like you are. This is a comedy, but what is truly hilarious is that someone seems to feel the need to make this point in a stage production.

Perhaps Daniel and his partner will soon put on a play whereby they travel to the Middle East looking for work. I suggest they make sure they try to find gainful employment as camel jockeys.

Failing that, perhaps they can fit right in working as eunuchs guarding a sheiks harem.

Unfortunately, their best bet might be as human shields for Hamas officials, but then again you do need some balls for that.

Larry Gambone said...

Farm Boy, are you implying that the Conservative Party was not full of racists in 1949 when Wigg made his comment? Why their Living God, Churchill was a notorious racist and Anti-Semite to boot. A straw man argument is one with very little or no substance. The worst you could say about Wiggs comment is that it was a humourous exaggeration to make a point.

Larry Gambone said...

The nature of fundamentalism has a very definite import visa vis its future as a threat to Europe. Why? I leave that to you to find out.

Larry Gambone said...

Only in a fantasy-world like the US would the DP be considered left-wing.

The Pagan Temple said...

You seem to be judging the Democratic Party by the public face of its national leaders, Gambone. They have to moderate to keep themselves viable. The true face of the Democratic Party looks more like Dennis Kucinich than it does Bill Clinton.

Also, it's all relative. Be that as it may, Americans view the philosophy of progressive taxation as a leftist philosophy, ergo with gun control, anti-death penalty views, increased spending on social programs,etc., as something synonymous with the Democratic Party, and leftist politics.

Democrats sincerely believe in government as an expression of the will of the people. There is some validity to that view, but I see it ideally as a servant of the people, the kind of servant who should do no more than necessary and otherwise stay out of the way, and most definitely stay out of those areas where they have not been identified as essential in the constitution.

Here's a clue-they are essential in only a very few matters. Tell that to a Democrat and you are itching for a fight. To them, there is no area of life where government should not be involved on some level or another.

That is why they are seen as leftist. I understand we are approaching this probably from two different definitions of leftist. Liberal would probably be a better descriptive term for the Democrats, but it is common and even habitual to refer to them here as leftists.

Again, it's all relative. Also, many Democrats are considered moderate but it is the left wing (or the liberal wing) that generally controls the party, sets its agenda, and write its party platforms.

If your Conservative Party members were to come to America and manage to get elected as Republican Party officials they would doubtless be considered RINOs, probably with good reason. Your Liberal Party members would probably be unelectable outside of a very small handful of states or regions here in the US.

We tend to be practical people here, Gambone. No pie in the sky for us. When times are going great, we tend to act all the more conservatively. It's only when things go to shit that we swing in the opposite direction.

Who is the most powerful country on the face of the earth again? Oh yeah, that's right, that would be us.

FJ said...

Farm Boy, are you implying that the Conservative Party was not full of racists in 1949 when Wigg made his comment?

No Bonehead, I'm saying that every party and government in the world was full of so-called "racists" and "nationalists" in 1949 when Wigg made his comment. The fiction of claiming NOT to be either a racist or nationalist bastard and the fiction that others who did hold such an "unenlightened" position were "morally reprehensible" only became politically viable with the emergence of the UN, the opportunity that "progressive" Leftists/ Internationalists of all stripes had been dreaming of since the Great War and the failed "League". After all, before you can weave a completely new peplos, you need to "card the old wool" first. That "old wool" was the British Empire (et al) and the carding tool was a "moral" attack on anyone who would fall back on historic traditions or ideologies to try and keep it together.

FJ said...

And since no one had carried the once "ascendant" "racist" ideology further in the forties than "Master Race" builders of Nazi Germany... it soon became very convenient for the Left to find a racist under every bed and a "national socialist" behind every curtain. Otherwise, who knows, maybe people would have started denouncing "communists"!

Renegade Eye said...

The anti-Castro Cubans in Florida's younger generation, are far less conservative than their grandparents. Hostility to Cuba is a grandparents thing.

Look at the younger generation of Iranians. It is well known, they are not fundamentalist.

Churchill was racist and antisemitic. Highly overrated as a general and a politician. The allies beating Hitler, came from not listening to Churchill. He didn't want US troops to be in Europe. He wanted them at the Suez Canal and India, while he fought the Russians in the Balkans.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Unlike the FJ and Pagan windbags, I've got a fucking life and haven't got time for this shit, which is pointless airing of retarded views that matter not one jot. My beef was with Reagan's Temple using racist language, which he has now confessed to. However, in breif reposte to the pair of racist bigots...

PAPER TABLE:

You're a narrow minded bigot with a twisted, negative world view, the more you rant, the more you confirm your backward thinking and deep set hatred. Thankfully, your view is a minority one. I hope it remains that way.

My problem was the use of the word 'raghead' which is an offensive and racist term.

I get the feeling that you use this blog as a forum for your backward, fringe views which are thankfully, never going to feature in contemporary political thought.

You've taken your wrongful use of a word as an excuse to show your ignorance on the UK and put words in my mouth I never said. I can't be arsed to take you apart, I've done it every time we've clashed here and I always have the last word.

You are boring.

As for Poles Apart, it is a show about immigration, unfortunately, we have bogits like you in the UK and the piece is about refuting the lies perpetuated by idiots like you and explaining the complexities of immigration in the UK.

You know nothing of Europe. Work on self-knowledge first and distance yourslf from cunts like FJ.

FUCKING CUNT FACE BOY:

You are a twat and you know it, you contribute nothing positive or intelligent to this forum, you loiter with an intent merely to disrupt. You are empty.

For the record, "Poofter-boy" is also an offensive term and homophobic.

I am going to the middle east on a arts exhange program next year, your lack of knowledge of both art and humanity is unfortunate, must read more books Fuck Bank, you are slipping like a bad wig.

Don't talk to me about having balls, I've out my money where my mouth is and live life, you merely piss in the wind and do nothing. Sad little old man.

I will continue to destory the pair of you nasty little bigots.

Even whilst I am really busy.

The Pagan Temple said...

Daniel, you put me in mind of a good many people here in the US that are on the constant search for things to be offended by. If they keep loooking long enough they'll find something. That's just how they roll. They and you want to turn the world into a sanitized setting, with the scent of a sterilized hospital, where all the nasty germs of the world will nevertheless find a way to adapt and mutate into something really nasty.

All your belligerence adds nothing positive, except it is, to borrow one of your terms, a "right laugh".

You are an object of hilarity to me and I suspect FJ as well-you just haven't caught on to it yet. You do not come any where close to destroying anybody. You are punching bag.

In truth, you are probably struggling deep down with your own deep-seated bigotries. How could you not be, after all, you are an apologist for a system that has not even come close to making up for centuries of oppression of racial and ethnic minorities across the world. Just a nation run by a bunch of two-bit elitist windbags who if the truth were known still imagine they control the world.

All it would take would be for the US to cut you loose, and your sad little island would be nothing and nowhere. I can understand how humiliating that reality must be for you, but really, Daniel, here's a clue-

If you and your partner are truly as prejudice-free as you like to pretend, you might want to think about dropping the anti-Russian jokes in your play, you fucking bigoted limey twat.

FJ said...

What he said...

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, surely if Dennis Kucinich was representative of DP rank and file the party would not be dominated almost completely by right-wingers.

"the philosophy of progressive taxation as a leftist philosophy, ergo with gun control, anti-death penalty views, increased spending on social programs,etc., as something synonymous with the Democratic Party, and leftist politics. "

With the exception of abolition of the death penalty, all of these were part of the Conservative Party platform in Canada in the 1950s. Even today, after the old Tory Party got hijacked by US-style right-wingers, the present Harper Cons would not be out of place in the DP. In fact a study of political positions shows Hillary to the right of Harper and Obama and Harper sharing most positions. There is literally no political force in parliament as reactionary as the Republican Party.

When Canada put through its own version of the Equal Rights Ammendment, all parties, unanimously supported it, unlike in the states where right-wing extremists got it defeated.

A personal anectdote. I started my political life as a Conservative during the Diefenbaker years (1957-64) I didn't like JFK because I thought him too right-wing! As a Canadian patriot, Diefenbaker came in conflict with US imperial ambitions. The US wanted him to have nuclear arms, he refused. They embargoed Cuba, he told them we will trade with whoever we want and US branch plants are subject to Canadian not US law.He attacked S. African apartheid in the UN and got the country kicked out of the Commonwealth. JFK hated him for his independence and the US govt. manoeuvered to have him defeated. Which he was in 1964. A host of Conservatives (including me) then migrated over to the social democratic NDP, the only other party to stand for some level of independence from the Empire.

(The following has been for information purposes to show how different conceptions can be even among two nations sharing the same border, language etc. So imagine how differently Europeans must see politics.)

The Pagan Temple said...

What you said about the Conservative Party of Canada fitting in with the Democrats is pretty much in agreement with my assessment that were they to become Republicans they would be viewed as RINOs (Republican in name only).

Most liberal parties of Europe and Canada would be unelectable in the US-thankfully. There are no truly conservative parties in the world, not in the way we define conservative. To us, a true conservative wants as little government as possible. They play a role in defense and in a few other well-defined areas, especially in cases of national emergency, in securing our borders, in interstate matters, etc.

The idea that the Republican Party is a "religious party" and wants to legislate morality is a relatively recent innovation, but it originated with so many conservative Christian types migrating to the party. They were originally Democrats who were social "conservatives" (conservative in this context meaning support for traditional so-called moral values). The fact that they were originally Democrats, however allegedly conservative they were, insured that they brought alone with them a belief in the use of government as a means of enforcing their own particular sets of beliefs.

However, this is not the true essence of conservative thought. Nor for that matter is imperialistic goals, when you get right down to it. The neocons as well were, at least to a great extent, originally Democrats who believed in a strong national defense.

Again, being originally Democrats, they brought along a belief in a strong central government that promotes a pro-active foreign policy.

Again, this is not the essence of true conservatism.

Once more, I see myself as basically a Federalist more than a conservative. As such, I believe in local control-city, county, and state control, where applicable, and central, national government (federal government) when necessary, but absolutely no more than absolutely necessary, and in case of LEGITIMATE emergency.

This is the philosophy I try to put across as often as possible. Most people in most other parts of the world can't conceive of a nation or a system where the national or federal government isn't in control of most if not all aspects of life, or at least of government.

That's why sometimes I get the feeling I am wasting my time trying to explain the concept. Most people here don't really understand it, let alone Europe.

Look at the cult of personality that has grown up around Obama. That in itself is as anti-American phenomenon as anything, though to be fair similar such cults have sprung up around Reagan, Kennedy, Roosevelt, Lincoln, and Washington, and for that matter even Clinton, Truman and George W. Bush.

It's a sign that people are putting too much faith in national leaders, and far too little in themselves, their communities, their country and the constitution.

WE are our country, not Obama and his little gang of worshipful Obamabots. And the same for Reagan, and I'll even take it further to include Sarah Palin, who I like, but I don't see her as infallible or perfect.

When you start having faith in politicians that's pretty fucked up.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

And it still goes on, from the plain fact that Pagan used a racist term and then initially refused to accept it was a racist term and then accepted it was and then used the comment form to spout nonsense about Europe.

And as for FJ's 'what he said' glad to see that twat has finally run out of shit to spout and can live vicariously through the shit spouted by PASTING TABLE, that should cut down on comment dross here...

FAGAN PIMPLE:

This is the pattern of your contributions to this blog, Ren posts something that honestly reflects his views, you trash it and either your nonsense is left unchallenged or you get challenged and then use this place as a soap-box to expose your ignorance.

It is becoming fucking tedious and I for one have no idea what the point is to frequently visit blogs that are in total opposition to your views, it is not about education and it is not about reasoned arguement, it is about trolling.

There are many racist, right-wing blogs that I could visit and have a row over there but don't. Why? It is fucking pointless and I have a life.

Right, onto your vomit.

It's not about a search to be offended, it is about that raghead is a hateful, racist term that should not be used by anyone with intelligence or interest in a decent level of debate.

Many of my Asian friends, whether they be from Pakistan or India have been on the receiving end of this term and I can assure you, it is offensive.

Your and FJ's ideas are always laying in tatters, becuase fundementally, they are mean-spirited, clumsy, fringe and unworkable, hence the joy I feel at how often you spout them and expose your failings.

All humans have prejudice and bigotries but it is a good human that first acknowledges this and then does something about it, either by challenging themselves or investigating the root of their falsehood until, to the best of their ability, they can be the best they can be.

Your 2+2=5 idiot logic that because I am British it means that I am inherently guilty for the past crimes of the UK deserves no further deconstruction and nor will I drop to the level of listing the crimes of the US that I could pin on you but thankfully, I am not an idiot.

As for the flawed idea that in a global economy with globe spanning foreign relations that the US would 'cut the UK lose' or if they did, survive in the global political environment perhaps illustrates how little you understand and know the world. You remind me of a 'little-Englander' island mentality, you are way off base and clearly not grasping the world we live in. Please read more and learn outside of your sphere.

Finally, your failed dig at what you perceive to the the anti-Russian jokes is a simple error. Don't judge something you haven't seen, the anti-Russian material is in the context of a Polish stand-up comedian, where we are playing on the long history of anti-Polish sentiment in both Russian and Germany, the jokes are used to put this in perspective at the long history of Poles returning fire.

In reality, Poles Apart is about dropping such tit-for-tat mentality and removing barriers rather than erecting them.

Once again, another in an endless line of fails on your part.

Try harder subhuman cunt.

FJ said...

Poles returning fire?

For Sale - Cheap. Polish military rifles. Only dropped once.

FJ said...

Please, my ethnic jokes against Poles are justified. Your anti-Russian ones aren't.

Hypocrite, much?

Ooops. Hypocrite means "actor", doesn't it. Winkie-Winkie.

The Pagan Temple said...

Hey Daniel, glad you stopped by. I'm writing a play and I need your advice. It's about a couple of stupid faggot Brits that want to go to Poland to work as male prostitutes. I'm thinking it might be right hilarious.

I'm thinking of making a promotional poster in which our two gay heroes are astride a hobby horse. The one in back has his hard dick up against the ass of the one in front, who is obviously enjoying it and hoping his friend will go ahead and stick his hand down the front of his jeans.

I'm thinking of calling the play "Poles Up Our Asses".

So, what do you think? You think I've got a winner here. Maybe I should add a few bigoted jokes about roving gangs of Russian ass-rapists?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FUCK BOY:

You're out of your depth, your constant stream of xeophoibic invective is kindly tolerated by Ren with the view I presume to hoist you by your own petard.

As I said to PAINTING TABLE, as you haven't seen the show, to comment on its content is foolish, best to buy a ticket and come see it before you wade in above your head bitch.

PENIS TART:

Faggot is an offensive and homophobic term, I'm glad that you are consistent in your bigotry and hate.

I'm sure you're repressed homosexuality is finding rich fruit in the poster image for Poles Apart and no doubt you cup your tiny penis in your clawed hand and yank until your man milk leaks out over your hairy palms.

I hope one day you are at ease with your sexuality and do not feel the need to hate yourself and others who are happy in theirs. I wish you all in the best in your journey to sexual happiness and until then, keep wanking yourself to death over images of me, for I am indeed a hot bitch.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, I think we have covered some of this ground before. All anarchists, and historically, most socialists have been federalists. The original federalist form of government in the USA, at least in the Northern States, was rooted in a society composed in the main of independent producers – farmers and artisans. When the US economy became corporate and the independent producers were reduced to peonage, so too did the form of government change. (And as I have mentioned many times before, govt. was also the instigator of these economic changes.) Thus the present corporate state. To seek to return to a Jeffersonian Republic while keeping the corporate economy would be an exercise in futility – a utopian dream. You cannot clearly separate economics and politics. The only way to return to true federalism would be to restore the economy of independent producers. Obviously, going back to an 18th Century technology is out of the question. However, there is a way of restoring the freedom of the independent producer within a contemporary context. That is through cooperative production. With a cooperative economy everyone is an owner, everyone has a share of the proceeds and everyone has a say.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, don't get into a slagging march with an Englishman. They are the world's masters of invective - at least in the English language. Your attempts at rebuttal are nothing but a pale pastiche of real insults. I do know of some Americans who are good at it, but it is not generally the case with most Americans. (It is just a cultural thing, and should not be seen as a put-down on Americans.)

FJ said...

Larry,

Danny-boy's neither an Englishman nor master at anything more difficult than race baiting. He's a limey poofter, a bag of malodorous, mostly sulfurous noxious gases contained by an over-abused and inadequately controlled sphincter, nothing less and most certainly nothing more.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

Daniel Hoffmann Gill is obviously no match for me. Pour over carefully the things he says compared to mine. His words are for the most part preachy, whiny, invective and insults. His points are rehashes of the same old tired talking points you can read on any liberal web-site (I'm avoiding the term leftist here to avoid confusion and misunderstanding), with an extra dash of outright hostility. I'm just having him on, and he still hasn't caught on to it. Even when I say it, he still is mentally incapable of grasping that I'm pushing his buttons.

The first time I ever paid attention to the words of this person, was when he hurled insults my way over something I had said to someone else-not to him-regarding something he took exception to. Instead of trying to make a valid point, and trying to speak with some reason, he introduced himself to me by way of informing me that I am a "racist".

I don't care, actually, what his opinion of me is. Pay careful attention to what the both of us say. When he speaks, he is obviously in one stage of anger or another veering from petulance to outright foaming-at-the-mouth rage.

When I reply to his nonsense, my blood pressure is quite fine. I am not in the least bit angered, and in fact, I take great pleasure out of pushing his buttons. If I did not, I would not devote any further time, I would ignore him as I have chosen to ignore Gert, who despite what you think is a troll in every sense of the word.

A hint-when someone makes a statement, and you respond directly to those statements, and the person replies by telling you that your response is irrelevant, that is being a troll. There is no reason to further feed such a creature.

And yes, I concur that a great deal of what I say to Gill could be considered trollish, but you have to remember and acknowledge that he fired the first salvo in this, what he in his delusion, imagines to be a war of words.

If you honestly do believe that he is making the superior argument, then perhaps you are simply defending his positions, which are more in line with yours. If so, that up to a point is understandable.

Still, just so you know, I feel fine. When I am "beat" in an argument, I can pretty much see it and know it. That is not the situation here. I think there is even a possibility you feel sorry for him. That's all right, sometimes I do too. After all, here is a 32 year-old man struggling to make a living at a profession which has obviously not been kind to him. I have seen no reviews of his plays in any major British publications. A search for his name on site search engines is a worthless endeavor. Ergo his plays.

Try it. Google Zero and that is about what you get-a big fat ZERO. Oh, you can find a few reviews on some minor sites, which by the way look suspiciously like they were written by Daniel Hoffmann-Gill himself, or one of his fellow performers perhaps, but I challenge you to find a legitimate review of his work in the BBC, The Guardian, or the Independent, or the Mirror.

Oh sure, his company is real, and they do put on real plays. If you want, they will perform in your living room, for a fee.

Don't get me wrong, I wish him no true ill will. In fact, I have and do wish him good luck in his profession. If he had any real integrity, he would be the first to admit that I have done so on at least two separate occasions, and by the way I did so in all sincerity.

Facts are stubborn things, though, and the facts at least strongly hint that this is a bitter, vindictive man who cannot brook disagreement or any kind of debate. If I were a legitimate London reviewer and reviewed the work of this man, I would choose my words carefully. There are as we speak deranged Islamic fundamentalists who would love to carry out an Ayotollah inspired fatwa who would be no more dangerous than this unhinged individual.

Again, I repeat, I do wish him well in his acting career, but-well, he is thirty-two, and you know the acting profession.

Tick-tock

Tick-tock

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, I am talking about the quality of invective, not about the nature of the argument - now long lost in the shuffle. What was it about anyway? Few Americans can compete with the English when it comes to invective, so don't try to imitate him. Look at Farm Boy's puerile attempt, it is positively embarrassing. Once again, it is a cultural difference and should not be taken as a put down of Americans.

FJ said...

*giggles*

Puerile. Good one, Boner!

Larry Gambone said...

Your heifers miss you Farm Boy

The Pagan Temple said...

I'm still not sure where you are distilling this quality in Gill, Gambone? It doesn't take much originality to fudge somebody's screen name and call them names and engage in other such ad hominem attacks. A true gauge of the "quality" of such endeavors is to be measured in their effects on the intended target. Using this as a criterion, I can assure you Gill is nothing. He makes me laugh, true enough, but I hardly think that is the result for which he aims.

He thinks to shame me and cower me, belittle me by, for just one example, calling me homophobic, after which he absolutely destroys his argument by engaging in homophobic insults on my person.

It is actually quite pathetic on his part, and why you can't see this is beyone me. But, on to actually important matters.

I think that we do have an understanding as to the nature of federalism, and our major source of disagreement might well be the nature of any internationalist movement.

My feelings are that federalism, by it's nature, is not conducive to any kind of internationalist prerogatives or demands. You would probably assert that, allowing for the proper conditions, socialism would come about and flourish quite naturally under a federalist system.

I would disagree, but I would be more than happy and willing to take the risk that you might be correct.

You seem to know a lot of pagans, thus you might be aware of the cliche that states that getting pagans to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats.

Well, I think the working class is pretty much the same way. I just don't believe that any one group of people are one big amorphous mass. The herd mentality, while prevalent and in some situations predominant, is not a permanent state, and people diverge according to individual leanings.

Federalism would under the proper care and nourishment unlike a great lot of the creativity that is the human potential. Any mass movement that produces any kind of "system" can only survive by imposing limits on the human potential. That is equall true of socialism as it is capitalism, if not more so.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Round and round and round we go...pointless internet debate.

FUCK BOY:

Nice try at trying to be clever but as always, you fail, too clumsy and not enough creative flow. Also, I am English and I am a Master, of many things but also of the arts, hence my MA.

PATHETIC TEMPLE:

Just becuase you say it, doesn't make it true, I'm afraid, aside from FUCK BOY, you are alone in thinking that you're winning. I always do.

And I'll say it again, you're projecting your insecurities onto me, button pushing is what this is all about, if you want to hide your racism behind that, fair enough but it is an act of cowardice.

You ignore differing opinions and those that challenge you, again like a coward.

As for your petty digs at my career, EPIC FAIL, considering I earn a living, have featured on TV around the world and played many fine theatres and am currently engaged at the National Theatre, after Poles Apart is finished, one of the finest in the world.

I think your own empty, failed life is making you feel sad at my success and the good news I had last week, of my US advert being taken out for a further year meaning another $64,000. HURRAH!

You need to Google Daniel Hoffmann-Gill and you will discover my CV. Zero was reviewed in The Guardian and The Times by the way. Big enough for you you daft twat, you have made yet another grave error, what a sad, bitter failure you are. Come back to me when you've been a pro actor for 12 years, own your own home in London that cost some $350,000.

You're a joke. What are your success stories?

I think you are scared that Gambone and others back me against you, it challenges your small world view and exose your lies and bigotry.

You are horribly defeated, again.

The Pagan Temple said...

DHG, maybe I am wrong about your level of acting success, I willingly cede that much. After all, how reliable is Google? Not very.

Other than this misjudgment on my part, this "debate" is a menaingless exercise in you hurling insults, making meaningless accusations, and fudging my screen name, and me responding and putting you in your place.

You got me on something. Hurrah! You are a success. Pat yourself on the back, it seems you are finally right about something major, at long last. Aside from a few other very minor points, you have generally been wrong, so guess what-

I declare myself the ultimate winner in this useless exchange, and hereby call a halt to it. Henceforth, I shall certainly ignore you as I do Gert the troll, although for a different reason.

The reason in your case is that, in effect, I actually agree with you on one other major point. Life is too valuable to be spent with this bullshit. Therefore, though I shall continue to comment from time to time, don't bother spewing your bilge towards me. All the accusations and insults leveled against me will be ignored.

Also, no I don't care whether Gambone agrees with you or not. Me and Gambone seldom agree on anything. Nor do I care whether anybody else agrees with me or not.

You are and always will be a small, petulant, angry, hateful little man with an exaggerated sense of your own self-importance, and a fucking bigot to boot. Have fun with all that.

As for me, I'm tired of exposing myself to your deranged mental illness.

Goodbye, sir.

FJ said...

Limey Poofter-boy,

*P-f-f-f-t-t-t-t!*


Boner,

So does your wife.

Larry Gambone said...

At least I have a wife, Farm Boy, and don't have to trek out to the barn for female company.

FJ said...

Yes you do, and I do love to hear her squeels while rolling in the hay with her. :*

Larry Gambone said...

Your statement about herding cats, Pagan. I believe that complexity is natural and desirable and is a source of strength and not weakness. What is needed is only that people agree on general principles. In the case of the economy all they need agree on is ending the oppressive nature of the present economy and replacing it with economic freedom. The particulars don't matter. “Pure” economies only exist in the fantasies of ideologues. All real “on the ground” economies are mixed economies. With the ending of domination and exploitation in the economic sphere people will be free to experiment in all variety of ways. Some will prefer to work by themselves or in family groups. Others will form worker coops and large scale stake-holder coops. In some areas municipal and communal experiments. Some people will try out alternative currencies. Some parts might be nationally owned but with worker and consumer control. What ever you want...
Of course, if the majority of people do not want to end domination there could be no socialism. But I have never met any worker who liked being bossed around so I don't think that is the problem. The real problem is inculcating the hope for a better future, the idea that it could be possible to live in a world where we are not bullied and exploited, of converting the worker's sullenness into action.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, first of all, if I took the preceding comments between you and FJ seriously, I would advise you to head straight to your family physician for a thorough exam, and to take your wife for one as well. I don't take it seriously, of course, but I do worry heartily over the long-range implications of mob rule, which is pretty much what you are describing here.

Like I told you before, here in the states, at least, we have safeguards against monopolies, its only a matter of enforcing them. If they were enforced adequately, and if our politicians had the integrity to do so, that would solve the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem.

But they don't, and they never will, because most people don't really care. Under a socialist system, why would they care any more and why would the politicians be any less corrupt? Establishing a kind of mob rule which limits ownership is not going to solve the problem, its only going to create a whole set of new problems, and exacerbate some others.

Plus, let's face it, expecting elected politicians to limit their sphere of influence is an exercise in futility. Part of the reason Americans have been extremely wary of generally Democratic Party politicians who promote socialist or quasi-socialist schemes is that their policies come bundled together with others that have little if anything to do with socialism.

Unfortunately, you can't pick and choose your policies. Politicians like to play the mandate game, assuming their victories are license to do whatever they want.

If you want to make serious headway towards reforming the economic system, or any other that has a political element, then you need first and foremost to devise a way in which parties can be dismantled. Then and only then are political candidates totally free to represent the wishes of their constituents in ALL matters. Now, they have no such freedom, because they are bound by party loyalties to party platforms, and further bound by the money of special interest groups, to adequately and honestly reflect the views of their constituents in more than a handful of things. That's why it's so necessary to demagogue by way of a handful of hot-button emotional issues. Otherwise, if the people stopped to look at what these punks were really about, in a good many cases their heads would be on pikes outside city limits-and rightly so.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from some liberal Democrat, anywhere, as to what gun control and eliminating the death penalty has to do with economic policies. When they can answer these and a host of other questions to my satisfaction, then I can take a look at them, but not until then.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the accumulation of wealth. I only have a problem with the laxity of law-enforcement in regards to anti-trust laws, and in the view of corporations as entities with constitutional rights. There are a lot of concerns, actually, but wealth and private property rights is not included among them.

I don't like government, Gambone. I don't like politics, or politicians, of any stripe. I only support Republicans because if you don't support one party you support the other by default. The Democrats are the party of big government, high taxes, political correctness, and oppressive and intrusive laws, so I choose to stand against them.

Both parties are internationalist, which is unacceptable. I am not so much nationalist as I am anti-internationalist. I am not so much pro-American in terms of the American government-which actually I detest, in all candor-as I am pro-American constitution.

Like I told you once before, any kind of government or economic system is fine with me as long as it doesn't infringe on the US Constitution, and as long as power remains firmly within the hands of the people-NOT THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!

That is simply because when the people have control, they can experiment to their hearts content, and if they decide they don't like what you are selling, they can go on to something else. Let the government be the be-all and the end-all of decision making, and the people are just stuck with whatever is tossed our way whether we like it or not.

Unfortunately, the downfall of democracy is too many dumb-asses have the right to vote, and too many politicians know how to demagogue them. Democracy, in most of it's currently known forms at least, is manipulative pie-in-the sky and I've about lost all faith in it.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FUCK BOY:

More homophobic digs, more digs at other people's loved ones, my what a sad little man you are, best if you creep away now, your dignity smashed, before you are once again destroyed as you always are here and no doubt, in real life.

I always find it funny that, face to face, you'd never have the strength of will to talk as you are liable to write but we all know, you've no strength in your convictions.

REAGAN TABLE:

The fact that this has gone from being a blog post on Pakistan to a thread rot where you attempt to knock me perosnally speaks volumes for your lack of ability at dealing with any challenge to your use of offensive and prejudiced language. Me highlighting the use of the term was not a personal attack, no matter what you may think but a flagging up of a word that is not suitable for an intelligent debate.

Until you can handle a challenge to your ideas without blowing up, I'd say you need more practice with debating.

On a side note, Mark and I sold out our show in Spalding last night, some 250 people, it is a small town but one that has experienced genuine issues with the Polish workers living there and it was a triumph. The highlight being a group of Poles waiting for us afterwards, not only to congratulate but to thank for educating Brits on the reality and history of Poland and the issues faced by economic migrants.

We posed for pictures and signed programs and it felt that, via a small piece of theatre, some level of positivity and change had been enacted.

Not a massive shift, not world changing but something of a step in the right direction.

It is in that world that I live, a world of positivity, forward thinking and a desire to enact change rather than moan on the internet and postulate theories that have no basis in reality or truth.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, Farm Boy is a troll. He is not here to discuss as you or I do. He adds nothing to the discussion what so ever. So I treat him with the contempt he deserves.

Anyway, back to what we were discussing. None of what I wrote about has anything to do with politicians. I would not want them running the show any more than the corporate psychos. You write of mob rule. Is a credit union an example of mob rule? A coop grocery? A community-run medical clinic? A furniture factory run as a workers coop? These are the sort of things I mean when I talk of economic freedom - not everyone doing what they damn well please and to hell with the consequences. Let me try another tack. Think of 21 Century Jeffersonian Republic plus cooperative production and you will sort of get the hang of what I mean.

The Pagan Temple said...

Yeah, that's really good Daniel, congratulations. Just out of curiosity, how many working class Brits showed up to thank you for informing them that they are backward thinking, stupid, bigoted racists who need to shut the fuck up and keep their concerns to themselves? I have no doubt that's what you believe. You "liberals" for the most part are just hypocritical that way.

For example, I take no sides in the nonsense that passes for argument between Gambone and FJ, but perhaps you can answer me this-how is it any worse for FJ to claim to fuck Gambone's wife than it is for Gambone to accuse FJ of fucking his livestock?

Like I told you, I am not now nor ever was really mad at you over the nonsense you spewed, I've just been having you on. It's been a right laugh to me, while you are the one that's been getting all bent out of shape over it.

Deal with it. It's time to move on.

The Pagan Temple said...

Larry, I admit you paint a nice picture of it, and it does look and sound good. But what about all of the other modern considerations that have led to concerns that wasn't applicable to the early nineteenth century? What about the technology, especially as applied to modern weaponry, mass media and communications, etc. What about the global economy? What about pollution? You can go on and on.

The question becomes, where is local control appropriate, and where is centralized or national government necessary, and how does this tie in with economic and worker's concerns, and concerns of the Middle Class and the working poor, etc.

How do we establish a national framework to deal with problems that are too large and complicated to be dealt with in a patchwork manner by various local governments, and yet empower such a national entity in such a way that it does not intrude on the legitimate interests and areas of local communities and/or regions and states?

It requires, for one thing, a voting class of citizens who are educated and involved, and who demand accountability of elected officials, and it also requires oversight by people who are more vested in keeping these people honest than they are in supporting one class of politicians and their agendas over another.

All of that has been shoved out the window long ago, and I don't see any real way of getting it back, because most people are just too caught up in the shell game that is partisan politics.

Would that it were not so, but I'm afraid that's just the reality.

FJ said...

Don't question the hypocrisy of those charged with squelching dissenting opinions, PT. Uniformity of thought and opinion is a prerequisite for anyone who posts at a liberal blog... despite any desire expressed by this blog's host to sponsor a dialectic.

Totalitarianism is the desired end of every socialist revolution. It's either the herd way or the highway.

And the vocal thugs who shout down the opposition like boner and poofter boy do so precisely because they're incapable of expressing themselves in a reasonable fashion. Dialectic is a foreign concept. Heterodoxy must be repressed. And the paradox expressed by the orthodox remains forever unexplored and unresolved.

The Pagan Temple said...

Actually, you can have a reasonable discussion with Gambone. You can even joke around with him to a point. Daniel is a big waste of time, but I do have fun pissing him off. I'm going to even stop that though, it's just not worth the time messing with somebody that's too fucking dumb to get it that you're just messing with him. Sometimes it's almost like picking on a defenseless animal or a mentally disabled person. At best it just gets old.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Round and round and round we go...

BIGOT:

The show never says that, it does however, challenge racist and bigoted views and tackles the truth behind xenophobic headlines. In other words, we use research, evidence and well honed arguments. Something alien to you.

The best thing about Mark's company (Hard Graft) is that the audience is actually, right-leaning and conservative, hence the joy of not preaching to the converted by initiating real change via art and debate (the show contains a Q&A which is full of lively, positive debate, unlike here).

So you're wrong on both counts.

Again.

FJ, you're a fucking twat.

FJ said...

...and we all know what you are... p-f-f-f-t-t-t-er boy!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

In your dreams twat.

FJ said...

Poofter-boy get's his fill of dialectic in the theatre, like any proper rhapsode performing in a traveling Dionysian religious festival performance group.

Can you say "Ion" rhapsode?

btw - Luv yer epistemology! It's simply, "divine".

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FAIL.

FJ said...

...did I say theatre? I meant circus.

Which clown are you poofter-boy? Arlecchino? Pantalone? Scaramouche?

FJ said...

Nah, Most likely Colombina in drag!

FJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Larry Gambone said...

"How do we establish a national framework to deal with problems that are too large and complicated to be dealt with in a patchwork manner by various local governments, and yet empower such a national entity in such a way that it does not intrude on the legitimate interests and areas of local communities and/or regions and states?"

I think you and I agree on the answer there and that is a federal structure based on the subsidiary concept. This applies both to political federation and economic federations. Economy of scale through federation of local economic actors, in the same way credit union branches are members of provincial/state, national and international federations. Remember, this is no utopia, that everything I am suggesting exists already on the small or limited scale. It is merely a matter of generalizing these processes.

Larry Gambone said...

Sorry Pagan, I will not take Farm Boy seriously. He is not willing to engage in discussions in a rational and thoughtful manner, but is only here to spew his venom. I don't have time to waste on someone like that

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FAIL AGAIN FJ.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

Well, here's the problem. See, you are somewhat leftist, therefore it is quite natural and understandable that you would be more offended by FJ' comments, while in my case, being more of a moderate and slightly right-leaning, I find the likes of Daniel Hoffmann Gill to be not so much a cause for offense as they are a complete waste of time.

This is truly a deranged individual, who imagines that the hang-ups of his guilt-ridden audience makes them "right-leaning", while the reality is that their hang-ups are doubtless based at least in part on a collective sense of shame at Britain's colonial past, which seems to be what Gill is afflicted with himself.

In America the equivalent would be those afflicted with "white guilt". They are generally not at all "right-leaning", but in fact are "liberal", and I have no doubt that this constitutes the vast majority of Gill's and his partners audience-such as it is.

In America, I think Gill could probably do quite well as an actor. If I ever needed a costumed clown to perform at my young child's sixth birthday party, I am quite sure I would find someone just like Daniel that would put on an adequate performance, which of course I would want to monitor closely.

Not that I am making any untoward innuendos, mind you, but an unhinged individual who engages in such deranged behavior as to be seen displayed in the actions of one Daniel Hoffmann Gill, Esqueer, are of the type not to expose a young child to.

After all, one would wish to teach his child proper behavior, such as not to make insulting faces at perceived rivals or at friends with whom he has fallen out, or to disrespectfully do so to the more adult and the more shall we say mature among us. Unlike Daniel Hoffmann Gill, who when he has further slid into the lower depths of derangement posts links to ridiculous pictures which serve no debate function, but are pure-and puerile-insults, much like a juvenile extending his hands from his ears while his tongue wags viciously.

Of course, like any misbehaving child, there are the temper tantrums and the name calling. Again, this might serve a purpose to a point and might provide some merriment, but after so long, it gets old, and it is time to take the child to the woodshed. Well, I have done so. Daniel Hoffmann-Gill has been thoroughly spanked, but like many bad and disrespectful children, he has taken offense at an action which which was meant as a means of teaching him a valuable lesson.

Well, pride goeth before a fall, as they say, and Daniel Hoffmann Gill is headed for his. I seriously doubt that we shall see an Oscar or a Tony in his future. His birthday clown suit awaits.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

The problem, and I speak of the situation in America, is that politicians love their power, and are always able to exercise vast amounts of creativity in acquiring and holding it. Were they to exercise as much creativity at actually solving problems as they do at using problems as a means of acquiring, increasing, and holding on to power, the vast majority of America's problems would be minor indeed.

The first method used to this effect in America was the passage of the Seventeenth Amendment, which called for the direct election of US Senators. Prior to the passage of this odious amendment, states could appoint their Senators, or if they preferred they could have direct elections. The Seventeenth Amendment took this decision out of their hands. As a result, the states lost a great degree of their autonomous power.

Because of this, citizens who once were actively involved in state politics gradually began to lose interest. This had the effect of setting up situations where state governments were more easily co-opted and controlled by political cabals.

That is just one example, but generally, politicians can always find some emergency pretext in order to keep the citizenry fearful and dependent. This recent stimulus porker of a bill is a perfect example. The change we can believe in is demonstrated to be a change from Republican ideology to one of Democratic Party ideology. Much like Bush's tax cuts were offered as an answer to every situation good or bad, this will be repeated with the Democrats now that they are in power.

Hope and change is no more than the old bait and switch, and our politically naive public falls for it every time. They will fall for it again as soon as it becomes viable for a Republican to intone that indeed it is "Time For A Change".

FJ said...

Islamabad - The Taliban announced a 10-day ceasefire in Pakistan's Swat Valley on Sunday after freeing a Chinese hostage during peace talks with the government.

However, an abducted American threatened with imminent death by his kidnappers remained missing.

Past peace deals with militants, including in Swat, have failed. Any agreement this time could spark renewed US criticism that peace talks merely give militants time to regroup and rearm.

Taliban spokesperson Muslim Khan called the release of Chinese engineer Long Xiaowei a goodwill gesture as government officials and Taliban sympathisers said they had come to terms with introducing elements of an Islamic judicial system in Swat and surrounding areas.

"In view of these developments, we announce a unilateral ceasefire for 10 days, but we reserve the right to retaliate if we are fired upon," Khan told The Associated Press.

The Swat Valley was once a tourist haven and is now believed to be mostly under control of the militants, who have long demanded imposition of Islamic, or Shariah law.

Regaining Swat is a major test for Pakistan's shaky civilian government because, unlike the semi-autonomous tribal regions along the Afghan border where al-Qaeda and the Taliban have long thrived, the valley is supposed to be fully under its control.

A string of recent attacks on foreigners - including the apparent beheading of a Polish geologist - has underscored the deteriorating security conditions.

Baluchistan Liberation United Front

On Friday, the kidnappers of American UN official John Solecki threatened to kill him within 72 hours and issued a 20-second video of the blindfolded captive saying he was "sick and in trouble".

UN officials said on Sunday they were still trying to establish contact with the gunmen who seized Solecki on February 2 in Quetta, a southwestern city near the Afghan border.

The kidnappers have identified themselves as members of the previously unknown Baluchistan Liberation United Front, indicating a link to separatists rather than to Islamists.

The captors have demanded the release of 141 women allegedly detained in Pakistan, but Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik has denied that the 141 are being held.

Baluchistan provincial government spokesman Syed Kamran said it was offering a $31 363 reward "for any information leading to the recovery of the kidnapped UN official".

Pakistani government officials could not immediately be reached for comment on the announced ceasefire.

Officials would not comment on whether a ransom was paid or militants were freed in exchange for the Chinese engineer's release on Saturday.

Long's freedom was secured days before a planned visit to China by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, I am in discussion with a whole range of people, not all of whom are "left" let alone socialist or anarchist. My approach is to search out a common ground with people and work from there to eliminate any prejudices or misunderstandings they might have of my position or allied positions. Thus I have had discussions with paleolibertarians and old time Tories. For the former we can agree on opposition to war and empire and an ending of corporate welfare. With the latter the need for a social conscience and that today's conservatives are conservative in name only. (For two examples.) In order to find common ground you have to treat others with respect and be treated with respect in turn, most especially where you don't agree. People who come here to sneer, insult and to make stupid comments like Beak and Farmer, you can't do this with. Anyway, I think I will finish commenting here - we are way off topic - and see what comes up on later postings...

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FARM BOY FAIL!

PAGAN FAIL!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

And for people who pretend not to care, you sure keep commenting a lot...

FJ said...

And for someone who claims to be a non-troll, so do you poofter-boy.

ps - Boner, was your wife screaming out my name again last night? No? Then you must not have gotten any.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FUCK BOY:

Unlike the pair of you who protest too much I've never made such a claim.

So once again, you're wrong, or should I say...

EPIC FARMING FAIL.

FJ said...

The Obama Administration just convinced the Paki's to surrender to the Taliban. The Left laughed at the WoT when Musharraf signed a peace treaty with the Taliban...called Bush a weakling. I guess this means that the Obamessiah is the ultimate surrender monkey.

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) -- Pakistan agreed Monday to suspend military offensives and impose Islamic law in part of the restive northwest, making a gesture it hopes will help calm the Taliban insurgency while rejecting Washington's call for tougher measures against militants.

A U.S. defense official called the deal "a negative development," and some Pakistani experts expressed skepticism the truce would decrease violence. One human rights activist said the accord was "a great surrender" to militants.

Elsewhere in the northwest, missiles fired by a suspected U.S. spy plane killed 30 people in a house used by an extremist commander, witnesses said. It was the deadliest of almost three dozen apparent American attacks on al-Qaida and Taliban targets in the semiautonomous tribal lands close to the Afghan border since last year.

Monday's peace agreement applies to the Malakand region, which includes the former tourist destination of the Swat Valley, where extremists have gained sway by beheading people, burning girls schools and attacking security forces since a similar agreement broke down in August.

U.S. officials complained the earlier accord allowed militants to regroup and rearm and urged Pakistan's government to concentrate on military solutions to the insurgency in the rugged frontier region, where al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding.

The new agreement intensified that unease.

"It is hard to view this as anything other than a negative development," a senior Defense Department official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of relations with Pakistan and because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

There was no official comment in Washington because government offices were closed for the Presidents Day holiday.

Speaking in India, President Barack Obama's special envoy for the region, Richard Holbrooke, did not directly address Pakistan's peace effort in Malakand. But he said the rise of the Taliban in Swat was a reminder that the U.S., Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."

The government in northwestern Pakistan announced the deal after officials met with local Islamic leaders who have long demanded that Islamic, or Shariah, law be followed in this staunchly conservative corner of Pakistan.

Among the participants was a pro-Taliban cleric who authorities said would return to Swat and tell militants there to disarm, although there was no mention in the agreement of any need for extremists to give up their weapons.

Many analysts questioned whether the fighters would listen to the cleric and said they doubted the deal would stop violence. Critics asked why authorities were responding to the demands of a militant group that has waged a reign of terror.

"This is simply a great surrender, a surrender to a handful of forces who work through rough justice and brute force," said Athar Minallah, a lawyer and civil rights activist. "Who will be accountable for those hundreds of people who have been massacred in Swat? And they go and recognize these forces as a political force. This is pathetic.

The Swat Taliban, which had said Sunday it would observe a 10-day cease-fire in support of the government's initiative, welcomed the deal.

"Our whole struggle is for the enforcement of Shariah law," Swat Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan said. "If this really brings us the implementation of Shariah, we will fully cooperate with it."

Several war-weary residents interviewed in the Swat area welcomed the announcement.

"We just want to see an end to this bloody fighting," said Fazal Wadood, a teacher. "We do not mind what way it comes. It is no problem if it comes through the Islamic system."

Pakistan's shaky civilian government is under intense domestic pressure to retake control of the Swat Valley, although many Islamist lawmakers and other Islamic groups have urged it to negotiate with the militants.

Amir Haider Khan Hoti, chief minister in North West Frontier Province, said troops in Swat would remain there but stop offensive operations and go on "reactive mode," retaliating only if attacked. He stressed they would not leave the valley until the militant threat was over.

A spokesman for the army said militants would have to live up to the truce deal.

"At the moment, the military has been asked to hold back and allow the peace initiative there," Maj. Gen Athar Abbas said. "But it is to be seen whether they (the militants) follow this cease-fire in true letter and spirit or take undue advantage of it."

Hoti said the main changes to the legal system promised by the accord already are included in existing laws stipulating Islamic justice. But he said they would be implemented only after peace was restored in the valley.

Hoti said the laws, which allow for Muslim clerics to advise judges when hearing cases and the setting up of an Islamic appeals court, would ensure a much speedier and fairer justice system than the current system, which dates back to British colonial times.

The rules do not ban female education or contain other strict interpretations of Shariah that have been demanded by many members of the Taliban in Pakistan - restrictions imposed by Afghanistan's Taliban regime that was ousted by the U.S.-led invasion in late 2001.

The accord does not involve the tribally ruled regions adjacent to the Afghan border, where the United States has been targeting suspected militants with missile strikes fired from drones believed launched from neighboring Afghanistan.

Monday's attack was the first in the Kurram area.

Rehman Ullah, a resident of Baggan village, said drone planes were seen in the sky before the attack on the house. He said he counted 30 bodies dug out of the rubble.

A Pakistani intelligence official said field informants reported militants showed up at the village bazaar and ordered 30 caskets. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to media.

The Obama administration has signaled it will continue such attacks, which U.S. officials say have killed several top al-Qaida leaders. Pakistani leaders have voiced strong objections, saying the strikes undercut support for their own war against militants.

FJ said...

Poofter boy. Have I ever denied being a troll?

p-f-f-f-t-t-t

There, now inhale deeply. You know you want to.

FJ said...

ps - I said "Paki" above just for you, abused sphincter boy. Paki, Paki, Paki.

p-f-f-f-t-t-t-t

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FJ IS A RACIST

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FJ is also a fucking idiot who thinks that trolling blogs is something to proud of.

I suppose if my intellect was as small as yours I'd hop on board the internet twat bus myself.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I've also noticed FJ how you spew loathing at pretty much everyone and then accuse everyone else of siding with mean-spirited people, when it is you who is the mean-spirited one.

Whay are you so angry and bitter? Did your dad hit you and your mum not tell you she loved you?

Have you found love hard to come by and are wondering that you have no redeemabale features as a human?

Keep your chin up.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

HEY FJ, HERE IS A HOT BITCH FOR YOU!

FJ said...

You'll always my hot b*tch Danny-boy! I love the sound of your walk...

p-f-f-f-t-t-t-t, p-f-f-f-t-t-t-t, p-f-f-f-t-t-t-t...

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

FJ IS A HOMOPHOBE.

The Pagan Temple said...

HaHaHaHa I must be a "homophobe" too, because if that fruit fly in that picture was to sit next to me in a bar I would damn sure cover my dick with both hands so fast I'd probably spill my drink.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Yep, you're a homophobe as well with the bigoted presumption that you are attractive to a gay man by defualt.

Classic homophobia.

Good to see that confirmed.

The Pagan Temple said...

I've had them come on to me in bars enough to know that as a general rule, when they plop down beside you, that's what they have in mind. That's especially true if there are plenty of empty seats to choose from. You're just not quite as smart as you think you are, Daniel. Of course, with that ugly fucking mug of yours, I can see where you probably never experienced that problem.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

You perpetuate homophobic myths that flatter yourself and enable you to portray homosexuals in a manner you feel is fitting to your prejudiced agenda.

You cannot generalise an entire, naturally occuring sexuality with your nasty take on it.

I let your own homophobic words do the damage you sad little bigot.

Why are you so full of hate? Repressed perhaps?

The Pagan Temple said...

Nope, not repressed at all, nor am I full of hate. I just tell it like it is. I am speaking from experience, not making anything up. Face it, Daniel, you're just upset because a good looking gay man wouldn't give your ugly ass the time of day, so you're just wasting your time "kissing up" to them to try to gain their approval. Ergo, when you meet somebody like me who could get any gat man but is most definitely not interested, it hurts you and feels you with resentment.

Come on now, Daniel, fess up. The truth is good for the soul. Stop being such a bitter, hateful schmuck. Maybe if you will be a good little boy you can get your girlfriend to use a nice snap-on dildo to help fulfill those queer fantasies of yours.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I find you pretty disgusting.

You beleive a classic homophobe myth, that gay men throw themselves at anyone and that also, the other part of this myth, is the 'backs to the walls' attitude, as if that just by the default of being a man you are attractive to a gay man, which is not the case.

Your attitude to this issue is, a the very best, a badly thought out ignorant joke but as someone who has worked with the UK's leading gay, lesbian and bisexual charity, Stonewall and worked with young people who on a daily basis have to cope with the bigoted attitudes that you possess, I find you not only deeply unfunny but also revolting.

Thread rot continues apace, your petty pride pricked at every turn, your backwards views on a far ranging number of issues left exposed for what they are...

Rubbish.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gay activist groups are experts at creating myths, and I have no doubt Stonewall is no exception. Ask them one of these days if it is possible to actually be a bi-sexual, and see what kind of response you get. There is no more group of people in the universe that is more intolerant and bigoted than queers, and you are one of their classic type of enablers.

Ask them how AIDS got started. Good chance they believe it was a plot to kill them off by the American government. They used to believe that rot, at any rate. Oh, that's of course the ones that allowed themselves to believe there really is a disease called AIDS. A good many of them denied it for years.

Then they protested when the government talked about devoting resources to creating a vaccine to prevent contraction of HIV. That wasn't good enough for them.

You say you're not gay? I hope you're not lying and keeping it a secret and they find out, because if you are and if they do, ho ho, it won't be a secret for long.

They are a disgusting group of people who care nothing for anything but promoting their own agenda, and the minute you cross them in any regard, to hell with you. And you wonder why people hate them?

As for me, you can believe me or not, that's totally up to you, but I am telling you straight up, I have had them act towards me in precisely the way I have described. Sometimes I have been accosted by certain ones on more than one occasion, probably because I went out of my way to treat them with respect and understanding.

I guess I should have just beaten the hell out of them, but oh well, I guess I'm just too nice for my own good.

As for you, you are just a sap. You don't give a shit about them anyway. You are judging them all as one group, and imagining because you are doing so in a supposedly "positive" way, that proves you aren't a bigot.

In reality, you're the worse kind of bigot. How many gay people do you actually know that you can actually say is a really good friend, whom you can have a friendly conversation with without it detouring into a bunch of forced humor and "light-hearted" banter meant to disguise your own inner disgust to the person and the people around you? I bet not many. In fact, I bet not one.

Give me a break with your latent homosexual hypocrisy, please.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Oh so it is the group that is oppressed, victimised and in some cases their acts made illegal, that is the one creating myths? Not the hegemony?

Give me a fucking break you bigot.

Stonewall defends the rights in the UK of gay, lesbian and bi-sexual people, they have no issue with bi-sexuality, unlike you clearly.

Stop projecting your bigotry and prejudice onto others, be a man, for once and accept your irrational hatred and bigotry.

I love how you speak for a sexuality that you are neither part of nor know of, you don't speak for anyone buy your own prejudice, ie: you think that gay people have an issue with bi-sexuality.

No group in the UK and I doubt very much that any mainstream gay, lesbian bi-sexaul group in the US believes AIDS/HIV to be a government plot.

You should stop taking tinfoil hat weating beliefs and painting them on everyone, once again, you do not speak for this group, you have NO experience of working with and for this group, therefore, your judgements are false and based on your own prejudice. Again.

"They are a disgusting group of people who care nothing for anything but promoting their own agenda"

Hate riddled prejudice again, so generalised and vulgar but once again, useful in exposing your ignorance.

Your own experience and I must confess, I do not take it to truthful or particularly accurate, is not a brush by which to tar all. On your thinking, if I was mugged by a black man than I should fear black men and they are all muggers.

I doubt you treat anyone with respect and understanding, don;t you reside in one of the most oppressive states on gay rights?

Makes sense.

I will not list the number of gay, lesbian and bi-sexual people I call friends or am indeed related too. In fact, Stephen whom I acted with in Zero, a fine committed and powerful actor, has many of the qualities you lack as a human, which is a blessing.

I would advise you to stop now before you type more homophobic, bigoted nonsense.

The Pagan Temple said...

So you are a bigot when it comes to Kentucky I see? Everybody that lives in Kentucky must be a bigot, is that it? Fine, you are a bigot against Kentuckians, I am a bigot against homosexual activist groups. I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home, the only illegality I know of is sucking somebody's dick or fucking them in the ass in public. As fun as that must be, many gays act like they should be able to have sex anywhere they want, and then they wonder why people don't want their kids around them. I know I sure wouldn't want any of mind around a group of fruit flies like that.

Sure, I can be friends with a gay man, but the minute they cross the line with me, I let them know once I am not interested. You probably say "oh, I don't know I'll think about it" and then look around mortified at the thought somebody might have heard or seen it.

As long as they want to just have a drink and make small talk or discuss business matters or politics or sports, etc, or play a game of chess, I'm fine with all that, but I'm not going to pretend for one minute that there is any potential there for anything beyond a cordial acquaintanceship, because I know for a fact I will never fit in their world and with their society. Why pretend to be something you are not? To try to establish a deep and abiding friendship with someone whose sexuality is so profoundly different from yours is asking for trouble and misunderstanding.

Eventually, you are going to have to make a choice. You are one of them, or you are out of the loop. The only other option is if they pretend to not be gay so they can fit in with straight society, but such people are generally miserable curs. Ask yourself why that is. Of course it is because they don't fit in and never will. The minute they come out, they have automatically distanced themselves from the main body of society, and they know it. And, it eats them alive with resentment.

By and large, though, they are the ones who have removed themselves from the social circle. Most people generally don't care. They are the ones who can't move past it. Why? Because they know they are different. It's only natural that they should gravitate to their own group. It's only natural that they should form an exclusive society within that group where I and most others don't belong.

So, are they not "bigots" going by your definition? Please, don't answer with some tired old excuse of some law dating back to the Victorian Era, we have moved well beyond that phase. It is no more one groups fault than the other that we have not moved further beyond it. You are as much to blame as anyone for playing up to their bitterness and resentment, and fomenting further divisions with straight society and encouraging misunderstanding.

You are just quite simply nothing more or less than an apologist hack who dabbles in feel-good rhetoric.

Your actor friend is gay? Surprise, surprise, surprise. I bet a part of him despises you somewhere deep down inside, probably because he assumes you'll never get there, and even more because he may have figured out by now that you probably have no desire to get there.

People gravitate to certain groups that share their backgrounds and interests for a reason. It's quite natural, and yes you could say bigoted to a point, but this is only as bad as you want to make it out to be. It's no more or no less bad than people associating mainly with those who share their political views or their religious beliefs.

I would put myself up against the likes of you any day of the week when it comes to associating in a friendly and understanding way with those of different beliefs or values than myself. I can do so quite naturally and comfortably. You would never last very long, you would have to withdraw into your own world, where you can feel loved and protected.

I would eventually go back to mine for no other reason that I have the good common sense to know it is where I belong.

You don't even know where you belong, let alone that you need to be there.

FJ said...

I don't fear homosexuals. I make fun of them. There's a difference.

btw - Do you have a live in peanut butter pal, or is Boner just visiting?

FJ said...

Your behavior is "disgusting" poofter-boy. It's a different emotion entirely from "fear".

Your lifestyle is a bad bathroom joke.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Pagan Fable:

I never said that re: Kentucky, show me where I said that (in my error regarding your base of racist operations being TN) but you can't.

However, I did find this, which says enough on the matter I think.

Or this.

Or even this.

I didn't read the rest of your babble, there is only so much homophobia I can handle in one sitting.

Fuck Boy:

For you.

And this is a joke.

FJ said...

The joke is in your mirror every morning staring back at you my little coprophiliac friend.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Your analogies are as tired as your old withered mind.

Take a break.

You're a mess.

The Pagan Temple said...

No, of course you didn't read it because you are a fucking fruit fly and you can't stand reading the truth about yourself, just like you can't stand the thought of anything that challenges your other ignorant views. You are a fucking mental and emotional coward.

As for your ignorant fucking links about Kentucky, which by the way is no more anti-gay than most other states, and maybe not as anti-gay as a good many others-

the first link seems to be just another two-bit gay activist group. Nothing there, so I'll move along. I should probably check my pc for viruses though.

Second link-so what? Unmarried couples shouldn't adopt children, and homosexuals definitely should not adopt them, married or not. Bottom line, there are those of us who will not allow the likes of you to use innocent children as a tool for your social experimentation.

Deal with it.

Third link-the marriage thing, I don't have a problem with. Like I said, I don't care whose dick you suck or who fucks you in the ass, or vice versa, so I also don't give a shit if you get a marriage license issued by the state.

Actually, if you faggots could get married maybe I could go to a bar without having to fight off some drunk queer running his hand up my thigh because I return his greeting with a smile, or because I give him a light for his cigarette, or any other number of bullshit excuses they have to try to molest somebody.

Keep that fucking shit to yourselves. It makes all the difference in the world between being treated with respect and ending up like Matthew Shepherd. If you want respect then by God you had better be willing to earn it.

As for gay marriage, like I said, I can accept it, but the caveat to that is that the minute you try to force religious organizations to go along with it, that's where I end my support, such as it is.

I am reasonably sure some of these nut-ball activist groups will try that too by demanding church's tax-exempt status be ended if they don't play along. The minute you try that is where you lose what support you have.

Oh, and one more thing. Stop sticking gerbils up your fucking asses. That is absolutely the most disgusting thing I ever heard of. It is fucking animal abuse, and those of us who love animals are going to put a stop to it.

Again, deal with it.

Also, stop being such a hateful schmuck with people that have a different point of view than yours. Not that I give a fuck, I can and will gladly match you spew for spew.

FJ said...

Projecting, danny? p-f-f-f-t-t-t-t!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

PAINTING TEMPLE:

Again, ain't reading all that self-indulgent babble. Get therapy to treat your homophobia and racial bigotry.

FUCK BOY:

You're always projeting your own deep apin onto others, as with Fagan, get help.

FJ said...

...Is there an Echo in here, poofter-boy? Or just a Narcissus? The way this thread is rolling, I'd have to say "both". ;-)

The Pagan Temple said...

Some faggot fruit flies even pretend to have girlfriends. Queer actors are especially noted for this. Those of course are the ones that are puke cowards who could never have the courage of their so-called convictions, they just want to slam others under the shield of "tolerance".

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Again, the pair of you dump more of your bigoted nonsense. Have you no shame? 120+ worthless, tit for tat comments that expose your prejudice cruelly. And cowards the pair of you, hide behind your blog profiles, pretend to be something you are not. I pity you both.

FJ said...

Just keep in mind, poofter boy... at least 60 of those "worthless, tit for tat comments that expose your prejudice cruelly" comments were yours.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Not true, we all have equal responsibility in this thread but I was responding honestly and openly to bigotry, or bigoted language.

Which you keep using by the way, you fucking prick.

The Pagan Temple said...

Daniel, I need your advice. I'm afraid certain people think I'm a faggot, so I'm thinking of going on Polish television and claiming I'm looking for a Polish girlfriend. Do you think that would work?

I dunno, I know one queer fruit fly that tried that once, but judging from the reaction of the blond Polish TV hostess, I have an idea she was secretly laughing at him behind his back.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

And still it goes on Pagan?

Are you not disgusted at yourself yet?

Once again you use the word faggot, deeply offensive and homophobic that you hide behind a 'joke' and I use this word in it's loosest sense.

As for going on Polish TV Pagan, very little chance of that, as you'd need to be creative and have the strength of will to come up with a good idea and then generate a vast raft of publicity, make an excellent show and get invited to Poland.

As for the blond Polish TV hostess, she made it clear at the start of the interview that she is already engaged but was flattered by the idea.

As I was there, I think I know a wee bit more than you, as is the case of most issues.

Cheers.

FJ said...

I was responding honestly and openly to bigotry, or bigoted language. Which you keep using by the way, you fucking prick.

By Gott, metinks dis faggot's 'bout ready to burst into flames.

Metinks me's going to need more marsh-mellows.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

And you of course are totally un-committed to this thread, right?

You're a joke FJ, an offensive joke but a joke never the less.

135 and counting of worthlessness.

Word Verifcation: scant.

How apt.

FJ said...

Answer me this question, Danny-boy. How many of your posts were on topic... and how many of mine were.

You are a joke, poofter boy. The count proves it.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I became involved in this thread because of the use of the offensive and racist term raghead, you got involved with the following:

"Pagan, you can call Danny, Poofter-boy and he won't get upset. He only becomes hypersensitive when the slurs involve people who have learned to hate racist British apartheid loving colon-izers like himself."

And then:

"Danny, are you by any chance related to George Wigg, the Labour Party MP made famous for his, "The wogs begin at Calais," comment?"

And then:

"Thanks for pointing out that Danny-boy is just as self-righteous and cynical as the race baiter George Wiggs was. Wiggs' fought straw men wherever he went, and they have since come to define him, not any position held by an actual adversary, just as Danny-boy's guilt-ridden sphincter contractions on the subject have only serve to reveal his own psychotic compulsion to seek redemption through loud denunciations of any and all "hyper-perceived" expressions of racism and pursue absolution through loud professions of political support for magical negroes of all stripes, foreign and domestic."

Thankfully, Ren doesn't delete your nonsense becuase then I and others can use it against you as evidence of not only your trolling nature but also spiteful attacks.

And I repeat, let us see if you can follow the rules laid out by Ren.

FJ said...

You go off topic and then complain when other call you on your off-topic thugish remarks? LOL!

In future, quit pretending to be the world's designated representative of the PC Police and stick to thread topics. You'd save yourself a ton of grief in the long run.

FJ said...

...and my actual 1st involvement with this thread was completely ON topic...

These Taliban forces are actually local criminal elements who have been sponsored by the ISI (Pakistani secret services) and the American CIA to disguise themselves as fundamentalists and ravage this beautiful area only to threaten the workers and peasants of Pushtoonkhwa and curb any form of resistance against this exploitative system.

"Right...The USA is backing the Taliban in Pakistan because it hates "leftists", and America only pretends to fight the Taliban across the border in Afghanistan so that they can kill Afghan Leftists.

I'd keep going, but this is one non sequitur that only a Leftist could possibly follow."
---

I only jumped on you after your all too lengthy and totally unneccesary digression into the field of international racial and social political correctness:

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

It is not off topic to state the fact that racist language is being used in a thread, as someone who drops in block quotes with only the most tenuous of links to the subject matter.

Are you suggesting that when offensive, bigoted language is being used that no one is ALLOWED to flag this up? That is must remain unchallenged?

I doubt that very much but as always FJ you bend you beliefs to fit whatever argument you have and then use the same rules you break to brow beat others into submission.

This will not work with me.

As for your first interjection I was of course referring to your diatribe after I politely pointed out prejudiced language.

"*cough*

Just to draw attention to Pagan's use of the racist and inappropriate term "raghead".

You then waded in with the already quoted passages.

I find it sad that besting bigotry is deemed by you to be a "totally unneccesary digression" and once again, you can try and use the fake banner of political correctness but you will find that calling someone a raghead and then challenging this you is merely called doing the right thing.

Something you would no little of, considering that your politics as outlined here anyway, are mostly negative, spiteful and thankfully, not the least bit practical.

So once again, cheers for that.

FJ said...

I hate to tell you this, Danny boy, but challenging the prevailing orthodoxy may often be the "right" thing to do socially, but it is seldom the "true" thing, factually. And if PT's descriptive language weren't entirely true, then your condescending genuflections to political correctness would be entirely unnecessary.

Raghead. Do many Muslim's wear what appear to be "rags" on their "heads"? If so, then you deny the truth when you you require from others that they not state the obvious. They wouldn't call it "political correctness" otherwise.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

You're a joke.

Raghead is a racist term and your daft attempt at justifying is just that but actually it is far more insidous and yes, racist, defining head dress as a rag is part of the problem.

To further expose your twisted and terrible logic, because a person from China or Japan's eyes are narrower than ours "slitty-eyes" is acceptable.

Because a person of African heritage has darker skin we can then refer to them as "darkies".

What bigoted nonsense, in your case the pejorative term "idiot" is indeed accurate.

FJ said...

You're the joke...

Here's PT's rant:

If somebody can get close enough to Fastullah to take a picture of his ugly raghead mug, why is he still breathing? This isn't rocket science. It would be easy to end this so-called war. Kill him and any other fundamentalist leader that rears his head. Target them all for assassination, along with all those around him, in the upper echelons of Taliban and other such leaderships.

You can't just stop there. Bomb the Madrassas, and make it clear throughout the Muslim world that if you send your child to one you are sending him to the slaughterhouse.

Then, wipe out all the mosques in which the imams preach messages of hate. Don't try to wait until they are alone to try to spare their families. Take the opposite approach. Go out of your way to make sure their families are with them.

Finally, when a group of radicals take to the streets and take it to the point that they are engaging in property damage, in burning, breaking, endangering lives, etc., let it be known they will not be met with tear gas, rubber bullets, and high powered water hoses (though this in combination with a little soap would not be a bad idea probably) but with real bullets.

Bottom line, if you want a quick end to any war, don't worry about the foot soldiers, target the generals and the leaders. One by one, group by group, pick them off.

Then, if a group of elitist Euro-trash (like for example a certain group of judges in Spain) get it in their heads they are going to prosecute you for war crimes, give these enablers a dose of the same medicine. Wipe them out. They have de facto made an aggressive declaration of war. Respond appropriately. Kill them.

It might seem radical and hot-headed, but remember, the purpose is to eliminate the source of the violence. It wouldn't take too many deaths before radical imams would suddenly moderate their positions, for the sake of their survival and their families. Without them, any such radical, violent movement will die quickly.


Out of that entire rant, you zero in on the singular use of the word "raghead" and pretend that its' use is what renders the entire statement "offensive". You didn't challenge the fact that he should be assassinated... sent to the slaughterhouse... that imam's families should be killed... that they should be dealt real bullets... wiped out... eliminated... etc.

No. You found that calling the man a "raghead" was "unacceptable".

You are a pathetic little weasle.

Using a pejorative in the context of a rant like that is perfectly appropriate.

But then a little faggot like you isn't capable of taking on an argument greater than one of linguistic etiquette.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I single out the word 'raghead' because it is a word that is offensive and bigoted and yes, using words like that weaken your argument, that is obvious, for example if someone was taking apart the flawed governance of Mugabe and referred to him as a "nigger" I think we'd have an issue with the entire argument.

This is obvious stuff FJ but in your desperation to keep this going and the vain idea that you'll have the last word you make these flawed arguments.

And again you use faggot, please go and read, yes read, the warning that Ren issued on his blog.

Good luck with that and developing a heart.

FJ said...

Yes, "raghead" was definitely the most inflammatory part of Pagan's post... *rolls eyes*

And "nigger" fits Mugabe extremely well. I don't think it takes away from the argument that he's a racist genocidal murderer one little bit, and if you think it does, it just goes to show how truly distorted our sense of priorities must be, that we feel that simply must show 'respect' to a despicable tyrant like that.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

"Yes, "raghead" was definitely the most inflammatory part of Pagan's post."

Glad we can agree at that, thanks for seeing sense.

And you know as well as I did that my comment had nothing to do with showing respect for Mugabe, quote me where I say that.

You can't becuase all you do is invent things I've said to argue against to somehow pereptuate your involvement in a thread long dead.

Best if you leave and stop now.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

"This thread is dead.

It's not unreasonable to ask, at the next political thread, not to use racist lanuage, stay away from personal attacks, and focus on the topic."

The Pagan Temple said...

Wow, this is still going on? HaHaHaHa. Let me elaborate on my offensive use of the term raghead.

Only "bad" Muslims are to be referred to as "ragheads".

The "good" Muslims should be referred to instead as "towelheads".

Really, Daniel, I'm not trying to keep this stuff going, but since you seem concerned that I am weakening my arguments, I'll just return the favor by pointing out that a lot of the things you say-not all of them mind you, just a good lot of them-and especially the way you say them weakens your own arguments, and in fact I would go so far as to say many could actually point to your words as a kind of self-parody of the left.

Sometimes I have to wonder if you are engaged in a bit of satire, sort of like Landover Baptist Church.

By the way, it's "slant-eyes", not "slit-eyes". By and large, such colloquial expressions are just that-colloquial expressions that were never intended to be expressions of hate, though all too many of them definitely were and are.

Ask yourself why you take the time to scroll all the way down to the bottom of Ren's page to continue this discussion. You like this shit. Why don't you just admit it, you enjoy the give-and-take and the idea of "putting a cap in your ass" as much as me and FJ do.

Translation-I've only been having a bit of fun with you, don't take it so personal.

FJ said...

No, don't take it so personally, poofty!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

"This thread is dead.

It's not unreasonable to ask, at the next political thread, not to use racist lanuage, stay away from personal attacks, and focus on the topic."

FJ said...

You're the one with the problem, poofty.

The Pagan Temple said...

Hey FJ-

Have you heard the news? Seems that Daniel's comedy-team partner, Mark, is wanting to get rid of him and hire another partner.

He decided he needs a straight man.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

"This thread is dead.

It's not unreasonable to ask, at the next political thread, not to use racist lanuage, stay away from personal attacks, and focus on the topic."

FJ said...

That does explain Pooftey's limp frustration.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Fuck you cunt.

Yeah, this trolling is fun!

FJ said...

Poor poofty. Don't be angry... it scares the children.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

...

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

You forgot to try and have the last word here troll!

You're slipping!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Over?

The Pagan Temple said...

Having the last word is useless if you look like an ass having it. By the way, what's your bread problem? It would help if you elaborated on what kind of bread you are making (there's literally hundreds if not thousands of different kinds), and if you detailed the steps you go about making it and ingredients, quantities, etc.

Of course there's also possibly a point to being so vague, that you're probably not really wanting bread advice, you're probably just fishing for an insult to complain and whine about so you can sabotage that thread too.

I'm sincerely hoping FJ don't fall for that, as I would hate to see Ren's recipe series, which he developed in part as a service to help promote other bloggers, degenerate into yet another forum for your politically correct and juvenile claptrap.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

PT:

This isn't about having the last word, although it clearly is for FJ. It's about good blog being destroyed by FJ.

I'm trying to make a good flat bread to go with my Morrocan lamb, that is a simple request for any bread experts that may be out there.

And do you want to know something? I've been wanting to comment in that post about that for some time but I thought I'd hold back becuase of my fear that FJ would troll it, again, which is what he always does.

But then I thought, why the fuck should I not comment becuase he might spam the thread?

Fuck that. You're on the wrong side Pagan and you have the wrong impression of me but that's fine, I don't care much for your impressions anyway.

FJ said...

Wow. I must be "all powerful" if I make you fear commenting on Food threads.

Are you sure you're not just a heterophobe, Poofty?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

OH YOU'RE BACK!

As I've said in every thread, (this besting of you is boring, try harder old man) you fail to read my comment correctly, it is clear that the fear is you destroying yet another thread, not a fear of you.

Goodness me, what posturing from such an old lush.

FJ said...

I never left. It just goes to show that your "fear" is entirely in you own head. Ren knows full well that all he has to do is ask me to stop commenting on his blog and I will stop commenting here entirely. But the point is, it's HIS blog, not yours, and you don't get to make the rules.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Yes, you left, you left it alone, for a short while at least but now your desperation to at least have the last word even as your ideas lay in tatters has kicked in once again.

Ren has made his feelings clear, you seem to ignore them, which says much about you.

FJ said...

You're "last word" on this thread, and a few others has stood. When the "insults" stop, I usually stop.

So I'll follow Ren's requests when you do. The question is, "can you?"

The Pagan Temple said...

I'm not on any "side". I have disagreed with FJ various times. I used to jokingly call him a pot farmer and tell him that he shouldn't smoke up so much of his profits. I'm sure he remembers that. It was all in fun, whereas you, Daniel, take everything personally and resort to name-calling. That's my "impression" of you, in part. Actually, I have nothing personal against you. You are the one that gets all torn to pieces over every meaningless word and throw-away phrase. I hope you enjoy living in that disinfectant-overwhelmed world you're trying to build.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Usually is the key word old chap, considering your addiction to the last word.

I love how you project your behaviour onto me and then say, in a nutshell: "I'll stop when you do"

How old are you? This is the logic of the playground, apt thought for what this has become.

And if it's really that simple, then let it end.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

You can say you're not on a side but many of us here can only judge based on words, rather than mind reading and on that front your firmly in the FJ camp, along with FJ and no one else.

Cool.

Whatever gets you through the night.

FJ said...

This is the logic of the playground, apt thought for what this has become.

You're it Miss Hissyfit.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Sorry chap but cut and pasting my words about you and saying:

NO, THAT'S YOU THAT IS!

Doesn't cut it.

You lose.

Again.

Poor chap.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

How long is this going to go on?

FJ said...

...

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

To quote Seward:

"No man will ever be President of the United States who spells 'negro' with two gs."

FJ said...

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. Winston Churchill

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Yawn.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

"You tell me that I make no difference. At least I'm fuckin' trying. What the fuck have you done?"

Ian McKaye

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Get some, get some, get some, get some, go again!

FJ said...

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Heh, sounds like you pal.

FJ said...

Does it, Poofty?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Yeah, it does.

FJ said...

Who does this sound like...

We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. --WC

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

It is you that has no interest in the truth.

Next!

FJ said...

Au contraire. I, for one, understand and demonstrate the essential nature of truth. You, for another, are merely a hypocrite who pretends at an understanding of it.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Just becuase you say it FJ doesn't make it true, you're judged here by your words with show scant use of evidence and truth.

And for such a proud American I'm shocked at your use of French.

Freedom Fries anyone?

HA HA HA!

FJ said...

I'm not the one obsessed with quoting only those people with whom I entirely agree. Now, you don't entirely agree with everything French, do you most illustrious representative from perfidious albion?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

And you call me a hypocrite?

Your wig is slipping old boy, in the fluster of your block quoting, your ideas are running thin, best to get stuck into pedantry, there rests your mediocre success.

The French have given us much including America but they also built the Maginot Line whoch was very foolish.

Rather like the French you build walls easily negated by moving round the edges.

Do try harder FJ, you're sweating!

FJ said...

You mean "hardly sweating," don't you, poofty?

And I never realized that the French "gave us" America, unless you can count those couple of hours of the French fleet sitting off the coast of Virginia in the eighteenth century preventing Cornwallis' retreat a "gift".

FJ said...

AS Plato would say, Dunkirk boy...

ATHENIAN: Remember, my good friend, what I said at first about the Cretan laws, that they looked to one thing only, and this, as you both agreed, was war; and I replied that such laws, in so far as they tended to promote virtue, were good; but in that they regarded a part only, and not the whole of virtue, I disapproved of them. And now I hope that you in your turn will follow and watch me if I legislate with a view to anything but virtue, or with a view to a part of virtue only. For I consider that the true lawgiver, like an archer, aims only at that on which some eternal beauty is always attending, and dismisses everything else, whether wealth or any other benefit, when separated from virtue. I was saying that the imitation of enemies was a bad thing; and I was thinking of a case in which a maritime people are harassed by enemies, as the Athenians were by Minos (I do not speak from any desire to recall past grievances); but he, as we know, was a great naval potentate, who compelled the inhabitants of Attica to pay him a cruel tribute; and in those days they had no ships of war as they now have, nor was the country filled with ship-timber, and therefore they could not readily build them. Hence they could not learn how to imitate their enemy at sea, and in this way, becoming sailors themselves, directly repel their enemies. Better for them to have lost many times over the seven youths, than that heavy-armed and stationary troops should have been turned into sailors, and accustomed to be often leaping on shore, and again to come running back to their ships; or should have fancied that there was no disgrace in not awaiting the attack of an enemy and dying boldly; and that there were good reasons, and plenty of them, for a man throwing away his arms, and betaking himself to flight,—which is not dishonourable, as people say, at certain times. This is the language of naval warfare, and is anything but worthy of extraordinary praise. For we should not teach bad habits, least of all to the best part of the citizens. You may learn the evil of such a practice from Homer, by whom Odysseus is introduced, rebuking Agamemnon, because he desires to draw down the ships to the sea at a time when the Achaeans are hard pressed by the Trojans,—he gets angry with him, and says:

'Who, at a time when the battle is in full cry, biddest to drag the well-benched ships into the sea, that the prayers of the Trojans may be accomplished yet more, and high ruin fall upon us. For the Achaeans will not maintain the battle, when the ships are drawn into the sea, but they will look behind and will cease from strife; in that the counsel which you give will prove injurious.'

You see that he quite knew triremes on the sea, in the neighbourhood of fighting men, to be an evil;—lions might be trained in that way to fly from a herd of deer. Moreover, naval powers which owe their safety to ships, do not give honour to that sort of warlike excellence which is most deserving of it. For he who owes his safety to the pilot and the captain, and the oarsman, and all sorts of rather inferior persons, cannot rightly give honour to whom honour is due. But how can a state be in a right condition which cannot justly award honour?

CLEINIAS: It is hardly possible, I admit; and yet, Stranger, we Cretans are in the habit of saying that the battle of Salamis was the salvation of Hellas.

ATHENIAN: Why, yes; and that is an opinion which is widely spread both among Hellenes and barbarians. But Megillus and I say rather, that the battle of Marathon was the beginning, and the battle of Plataea the completion, of the great deliverance, and that these battles by land made the Hellenes better; whereas the sea-fights of Salamis and Artemisium—for I may as well put them both together—made them no better, if I may say so without offence about the battles which helped to save us. And in estimating the goodness of a state, we regard both the situation of the country and the order of the laws, considering that the mere preservation and continuance of life is not the most honourable thing for men, as the vulgar think, but the continuance of the best life, while we live; and that again, if I am not mistaken, is a remark which has been made already.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

As your mum would say:

"I'm so very sorry that my son is such a nob. Forgive me."

Kindest regards...

FJ said...

Moving round the edges is for cowards, poofty. Try taking me head on for a change. It'll make a better man out of ya.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

No. I meant you were sweating, do read what I say and not make up your own stuff old boy.

And now you deny all the aid the French gave to the independence of America, next you'll tell me only 1 million jews died during the holocaust. You're a revisionist.

And you obviosuly don't know much about the Maginot Line otherwise you'd get the point, read more books, come back to me and then we can carry on.

Bless you, you're all over the shop.

FJ said...

This reminds me of the futile Athenian attempts at circumvallation at Syracuse at the close of the Poloponnesian War. It's a shame you've no Spartan generals to save you. Only the hope that 'Alcibiades' wont be recalled for defacing the herms.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

HA HA!

What a pathetic attempt at showing off, come on old boy you're all over the shop.

You should have left this one for dead, like your sense of humanity.

Chin up old boy.

FJ said...

And please, the Maginot line... that's like saying that Hitler was unaware of the Schlieffen plan.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

That took you far too long to Google old chap, bless you, I know this is moving too fast for you but if you're to compete you must keep up.

Good luck with that!

FJ said...

If I Google it's only for spelling. I know how anally retentive you are about spelling.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

As fun as this besting of you two is, the serious matter is that Ren will not post again until this stops, to quote him:

"I'm not posting anything, until its safe to."

How soon is now?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

As fun as this besting of you two is, the serious matter is that Ren will not post again until this stops, to quote him:

"I'm not posting anything, until its safe to."

How soon is now?

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