Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Stop Israel's Massacre in Gaza!

By Walter Leon
Tuesday, 30 December 2008

Two years after the Israeli ‘Defence’ Forces indiscriminately slaughtered over a thousand Lebanese civilians in the quaintly-titled Operation Just Reward, Israel has turned its attention to Gaza, in the form of Operation Cast Lead. Stripped of its innocuous-sounding name, this operation becomes a lot less palatable: according to Palestinian medical sources, nearly 300 Palestinians have been killed, including numerous women and children. Israel’s targets have included police stations (which are unsurprisingly situated in densely-populated areas), the headquarters of a Hamas-owned satellite television channel, and the Islamic University, Gaza’s only higher education institution.

According to witnesses, hospitals are overwhelmed with the injured and the bodies of the dead are piling up in the morgues. BBC correspondent and Gaza resident Hamada Abu Qammar describes a typical grisly scene:

“I followed one woman who was screaming ‘my son, my son’ as she searched the building.

Eventually they located him, a young man was in his twenties. The staff would not let her see the body, but I saw it. It didn't have a head and there was no stomach. She fainted on top of the remains of her son, which were covered with a white sheet.”

Israel’s ‘Ceasefire’ and the Complicity of the Arab World



The attacks have come as a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas elapsed. However, even when this ceasefire was in place, this did not mean the people of Gaza were free of problems. Israel has instigated a crippling blockade of Gaza that has starved its people of food, fuel and even medical supplies. As John Ging, head of operations of the United Nations agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA), said in an interview with The Electronic Intifada in November, “there was five months of a ceasefire in the last couple of months, where the people of Gaza did not benefit; they did not have any restoration of a dignified existence. We in fact at the UN, our supplies were also restricted during the period of the ceasefire, to the point where we were left in a very vulnerable and precarious position and with a few days of closure we ran out of food.”

Nor should Israel alone be held responsible. Whilst Israel was instigating these brutal attacks, Egypt was playing host to Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. According to the BBC, “[a]s jets pounded the southern Gaza Strip, hundreds of Palestinians stormed over a fence on the Gaza-Egypt border, but Egyptian security forces fired shots to prevent them entering.”. In fact, Egypt has consistently participated in the blockade of Gaza, time and again doing Israel’s dirty work, caging Palestinians like animals and denying them essential supplies. Arab states called for an ‘emergency’ session of the Arab League, but Egypt opposed this and Saudi Arabia expressed ‘reservations’.

Why has Egypt done this? Well, firstly, as the world’s second largest recipient of US military aid (no prizes for guessing the first largest), Egypt is a ‘key regional ally’ (i.e. pawn) of the United States, and as such, will carry out US policy. Writing in Haaretz, the liberal Israeli newspaper, Zvi Barel argues that “Egypt and Saudi Arabia, which view Hamas as an Iranian ally whose goal is to increase Tehran's regional influence at their expense, prefer to wait a bit in the hopes that Israel's military operation will strip Hamas of its ability to dictate terms.” In other words, the Egyptian and Saudi regimes (and their US puppet-masters) are hoping Israel succeeds in destroying the Hamas government and replacing it with something more pliant. They are prepared to see Gaza’s streets drenched with Palestinian blood to make this happen.

The Masses Rally



Of course, the pusillanimous collaboration by the Arab states has not been matched by its people. In Egypt and Lebanon, rallies of tens of thousands have taken place in support of the Palestinians. Large rallies have also taken place in Syria, Libya, Iraq and Jordan. Revulsion at the complicity of the Arab states was evident: left-wing Lebanese television station Aljadeed (New TV) showed demonstrators outside the Egyptian embassy, some waving red flags and one sporting a Ché Guevara t-shirt.

Even in Israel itself, where the population is subjected to a relentless propaganda machine in support of the state, a rally of over a thousand people assembled spontaneously in Tel-Aviv, attended by organisations from “Gush Shalom and the Women’s Coalition for Peace to the Anarchists Against the Wall and Hadash [with whom the Israeli Communist Party are involved]”.

A demonstration also took place in London outside the Israeli embassy. According to police reports, 700 people attended the stormy demonstration, blockading the road outside the embassy and bringing traffic to a standstill. Clashes between protesters and the police broke out when a group of protesters tried to storm the barrier that was penning them in.

The Futility of Terrorism and the Bankruptcy of the Fundamentalists



So what is Hamas, the supposed leader of Palestinian resistance to Israel, doing to defend the Palestinians? Unfortunately, their ‘resistance’ strategy is based on futile terrorist attacks on Israeli civilian targets. Since taking control of Gaza, the Islamic movement has fired hundreds of homemade rockets at the Israeli border town of Sderot. Whilst these attacks have rarely been deadly (less than 20 Israelis have been killed in such attacks since Israel removed its settlers from Gaza), they have made life miserable for the inhabitants of this poor, working-class town.

These attacks do nothing to militarily damage the regional superpower; they do however serve to harden Israeli public opinion, particularly amongst the poor workers of Sderot, who should be the Palestinians’ natural allies. Such attacks help to create a fortress mentality within Israel, encouraging its workers and poor (themselves heavily exploited by Israeli capitalism) to support ‘their’ state in its attacks against ‘the enemy’. The Israeli military can then take advantage of favourable Israeli public opinion to launch an attack. Its aim is to destroy or severely weaken Hamas, and see it replaced by something more pliant.

For its part, Hamas is primarily interested in gaining power over its own stretch of territory. The terrorist attacks on Israel are aimed at strengthening its position at the negotiating table; Hamas has already shown its willingness to accede to Israel’s demands (even going so far as to aid the Egyptian security forces in preventing Palestinians from entering Egypt via Gaza), but its support base forces it to drive a harder bargain than Fatah. This is a problem for Israel, whose dominant economic and political position will be threatened if it concedes too much.

Is There an Alternative?



If Hamas were serious about organising a resistance against Israel’s occupation, it would base its strategy not on futile acts of terrorism by small bands of ‘heroes’, but on arming the Palestinian masses. It would organise regional defence committees in every city, town and village, democratically controlled by the workers, peasants and refugees, and composed of every able-bodied man and woman. Such a force would have a genuine mass base, and, conducting a campaign of guerrilla street-fighting, would be a formidable foe for the Israeli occupation forces. But such a force would threaten the power of Hamas (and of the powerful, semi-feudal clans that dominate Palestinian politics). One of Hamas’ first actions upon taking control of Gaza was to raid the offices of the Palestinian Trade Union Federation, in an attempt to stifle any independent organisation of Palestinian workers.

For its part, the Israeli labour movement has a moral duty to oppose Israel’s barbarous actions. The Histadrut (Israeli Trade Union Federation) should refuse to cooperate with the ‘war effort’, calling strikes amongst workers involved in the handling of military supplies, and, if necessary, an anti-war general strike. The workers and poor of Israel are the natural allies of the Palestinian masses of Gaza and elsewhere. This war will not benefit them – it will mean more curtailing of civil liberties by the state (Israeli police already have unprecedented powers to search people’s homes without even informing them), more cuts in public spending, and more threats of terrorism as Hamas or Hezbollah retaliate.

Of course, we are under no illusions that the Israeli labour movement is about to take such actions – even more than in Britain, Israeli trade union leaders are very much integrated into the state machine. But some rank-and-file members, Israeli workers, will start to ask awkward questions at union meetings, demanding that their leaders take action.

We demand

:

An immediate cessation of hostilities by the Israeli military against the population of Gaza
An immediate lifting of the crippling economic blockade, to allow free movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza
An end to the futile terrorist attacks on the civilian population of Sderot; the leadership of the resistance must arm the Palestinian masses and organise regional defence committees in every city, town and village
Support for the suffering masses of Gaza by the Israeli labour movement – no cooperation with the Israeli war machine
For a Socialist Federation of the Middle East


RENEGADE EYE

85 comments:

Zahid said...

Excellent blog. This is the first blog I read which sounds like truth. All other blogs were either supporting disproportionates military response from Israel or labeling the UN and EU for not supporting Israel. I m not a big fan of middle east. I consider them as cowards, lazy and failed states. But when i comes to humanitarian grounds I can not support the action taken by Israel.

Most of the blogger either supporting it because they have connection with Israel either religiously or politically. But I think anyone think above religion and politics, I mean humanitarian grounds, will never appreciate this.

US call for Hamas and Ghaza people to cooperate when they are being killed is unjustifiable. While UN and EU ask Israel to stop they were being blogged as terrorist gatherings or groups.

I believe this operation is to damage the ambition of PEO Obama to build a peace process in Middle East. This will definitely make everything unstable and complex again. More anger for middle east will go over the world and definitely victims of wars will stand against Israel and its Allys leading more terrorist activities in the region.

While everyone was looking for a positive change, peace and progress in the coming years. Again Israel gave new challenge to world.

Only US and people who above any lobbies can take a decision and give a direction to the world towards peace. But the key is "Earlier is Better".

FJ said...

Gee, 400 Hamas rockets drop indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza killing innocent Israeli children, and when Israel strikes backs, the Pseudostinians howl "FOUL!"

The Psuedostinian "cause" is a cruel, cruel joke. Stop paying these UNWRA unemployed and unemployable welfare cases to make trouble. Cut off all international funding to Pseudostine TODAY! 60 Years of UN welfare is ENOUGH!

The Pagan Temple said...

It's a shame this stuff has to happen, but really, is Hamas any worse than Fatah? They pulled the same kind of crap when they were in power. Granted, the religious component might not have been quite as pronounced, but still, they pulled some shady stuff too.

Bottom line, as long as either engages in assaults on Israeli civilians, they can expect this kind of reaction eventually. The surprise is actually the level of Israeli restraint up until now. That is, until you look at the big picture.

This Israeli attack on Gaza and Hamas is timed for the upcoming Israeli elections and also the current US presidential transition period. Things will get pretty much back to normal once Obama takes office, unless he does something out of the ordinary.

As soon as the Israeli elections are over, for sure it will go back to the same old bullshit, guaranteed, regardless of who wins.

By the way, when Sharon withdrew from Gaza, they all complained that he was acting unilaterally. HaHa what the hell was that supposed to mean? See, that just proves the Palestinian leaders want to keep this shit going on. They want the Israelis to keep reacting to their provocations as harshly as possible so they can excuse their own excesses.

I think most people see through all this bullshit. Too bad nobody will ever do anything about it. You can forget a socialist solution here. I don't think Karl Marx is going to replace Mohammed in the hearts and minds of the Arab world anytime soon.

As for the Israelis, if they weren't constrained by the US and the UN, they would have already driven the Palestinians into the sea. By the same token, if it weren't for the US they would have been wiped out themselves twenty or thirty years ago at least.

In other words, if we really wanted to stop this shit, we could. We could do either or, let the Israelis off the leash, or cut their water off completely. This war in the Middle East is nothing but a reflection of our own divisions. It's like a man and a woman in a dysfunctional marriage having kids and thinking they're going to turn out sane.

Larry Gambone said...

Best thing, PT would be for the US to pull the plug on Israel. An Israel without US protection and funding would then be forced to bargain in good faith with the Palestinians. At the same time no one would allow the Arab states to exterminate the Israelis.
I suspect this is what will eventually happen as Americans will become fed up with funding a state which causes so much trouble in that area for them.

The other possibility is that the Israelis themselves will become fed up with the right-wing in their own country and deal with them. This would also allow for some kind of rational compromise.

Jack said...

Perhaps someone would like to deal in reality and ask why Hamas is not being held to the fire.

Why negotiate with a terrorist organization whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

They aren't firing missiles at land that is populated by so called settlers, but into Israel proper.

Mike said...

All I gotta say is, too bad the Isrealis did not sink that boat. One less stupid idiot in the world is a good thing. They defied a blockade by Isreal into those waters on several occasions. Those waters were off limits according to Isreal, and the claim that the boat did not get any advanced warning of being rammed is hogwash. The advanced warning was Isreal telling the world a blockade was in effect was their warning. Had I been the captain of the Isreali boat, I would have simply sunk the vessel.

As for Gaza, I am fully behind Isreal. The people of Gaza which support Hamas are shortsighted ignoramous's who have been told time and again to lay down their arms and keep the peace. Since they do not want peace, Isreal is accomodating them. I also hope the leadership of that country tells Canada, Britain, France, Germany AND the US (along with all those other detracting countries) to piss off about humanitarian calls for a ceasefire. I am hoping they roll the tanks through and squash Hamas and its supporters into oblivion. It should have happened years ago, and all these peace talks that failed and led to more deaths on both sides would not be going on.

Genocide against the Gaza inhabitants is a distasteful thought, but what else can be done about a people who do not want peace, proof of that in the countless cease fire agreements they have violated since the '67 war.

A quote from "Cool Hand Luke"

"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."

enough already, get it over with. Glass parking lot anyone?

mohamedhassan said...

Thanks for visiting over Renegade. I, for the most part, agree with your post. Hamas are acting irrationally, and are truly proven bad politicians. In the midst of all the calamities already ongoing pre-Israel attacks, they passed a law in their pseudo parliament to instate religious rulings on the people of Gaza. A move which I could not understand given the circumstances in Gaza! Even their role models who are the prophet companions in the early islamic state suspended Islamic law in times of famine and national calamities! Is Hamas another Taliban? no, they are better, but is this a meaningful comparison?!!

Israel is mistaken in what they did, this will not obliterate Hamas! it is bizarre thinking, simply because Hamas was formed, strengthened and became what it is when Gaza was occupied by Israel. A few rockets here and there might topple the Hamas Government, but it will also push Hamas back underground to which Hamas is very well versed in living and it will never be neutralized. Hamas engaging in the political process was a gain that should have been capitalized on differently and not via the aggressive sanctions by the world community as has been done. History teaches us that when guerilla organizations are pulled into the political process they almost always neutralize, and become less and less militarized over time. This is a failure by the international community. Hamas is being pushed underground, and we go back to square one.

Israel must cease fire and resort to reason, their policies breeds more violence, and have never EVER lead them to peace of anywhere close. I always have my strong doubts that mainstream Israeli politicians do really want peace, this is just smoke screen. Much like Palestinian organizations, they have a vested interest in keeping the conflict as it is. It emboldens them to blackmail the international community and show as the victim that they are not. Peace needs to be forced on the Israeli's as much as it needs to be forced on the Palestinians.

Egyptian government (my country!) are buffoons and Mubarak is as you bluntly put it, a US puppet. To be honest, I do not mind him being a US alley, but I mind him being a puppet. As puppet the Egyptian people gain nil by doing what he is doing. But as an alley he can use some political leverage to benefit his country. What he is getting from the US is peanuts that keeps him in power, but is not benefiting the Egyptian people economically in anyway. In a more leveled playing field he can leverage on his US and EU relations to truly and develop Egypt economically. Alas, he is a puppet dictator who is only after keeping his regime.

Israel is set to lose by her actions, and as time told before, it will tell again that they are wrong. They portray Hamas as a monster with ROCKETS, while all Hamas has are tinfoil rockets that are laughable at best. Apparently, they drunk the koolaid they sell to the world and believed their own propaganda and decided to respond to Hamas disproportionately only to embolden Hamas more. Needless to say they exposed and discredited the regional leaders *who are alleys) in Saudi Arabia and Egypt in the eyes of their own people, making the whole region as unstable as ever.

redkazim said...

This is an excellent piece on the Arab-Israel conflict. Many people mistakenly believe that Judaism and Zionism are one and the same thing -- they are not. Israel is a crooked state as the Zionist regime is sitting on a stolen land. Israel represents the ugly face of US-backed imperialism in the Middle East.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, you've got to be kidding me. Who do you think exactly would keep Israel from being eliminated if we stopped supporting them. The UN? The European Union? Russia? China? You are kidding, right? None of them would do anything, other than wax poetic about the "horrible tragedy", and get on the tube and say "please, we urge restraint". Then they would pass a resolution-maybe-condemning the violence, and by that time it would probably be about half over or more.

Sometimes I honestly think the UN set up the Israeli state so they could continue Hitler's work with the enraged Palestinians acting as their pawns-and executioners.

If it hadn't been for the US taking the lead role in protecting Israel, I think its pretty easy for most people to see which country would be the overgrown refugee camp, at best.

I mean, look at it from the beginning. The Israelis were willing to settle for what they were given, it was the Palestinians who refused to accept the UN mandate.

Which, frankly, I don't blame them. At that time, if I had been one of them, I would probably have felt the same way if I were uprooted from my home and told the area I had lived in all my life now belonged to another country. There ain't no maybe about it, I would have definitely been out for blood, and then some. There would not have been a Jew in sight whose name wouldn't be on a bullet in my gun.

But, that was then. It's been SIXTY FUCKING YEARS. It's time to move on. The reality is, the Palestinian leaders are standing in the way of their people ever having any kind of decent life for their kids and future generations. What they are doing has never worked, and it never will work. Maybe once the Israelis eliminate Hamas, and show they are willing to eliminate anyone else that pursues similar policies to Hamas, the people will finally get the message and demand their future leaders act responsibly. The leadership can save face by adopting the facade they aren't afraid of Israel, they're just pursuing the wishes of the people. However, I am not hopeful.

FJ said...

The only reason that the Pseudostinians stay in Gaza is to collect their welfare checks from UNWRA. Take away their welfare checks, and they'd all be too busy earning a living in Cairo to care about launching rockets into Israel.

Larry Gambone said...

PT, I didn't say "Israel eliminated" , I said "the Israeli people exterminated". No one is going to allow that. Put it down to brute self-interest if nothing more. The European and US right will demand the protection its confreres in Israel, just like we will demand the protection of our socialist and anarchist brothers and sisters in Israel.

Larry Gambone said...

Both extrem sides in the conflict are exterminist. The Israeli right is able to get away with its genocidal policies because of US support. Once the US withdraws its support, the Israeli population will deal with the fanatics in its midst. But then the fanatics on the other side must not be allowed to engaged in genocide either.

Renegade Eye said...

Zahid: Thank you for visiting this blog. Do you have a blog?

I disagree with you about Obama. Obama is absent from leadership. If anything this attack is for Israel's domestic politics. Israel has a history of launching military campaigns to divert from local scandals.

Israeli lobbys are overrated. Israel is the US's satellite in the area, as Colombia in South America. America dictates to Israel, not the other way around.

Pagan: Both Fatah and Hamas are supporters of neoliberalism. Either one in power, would invite the world to come to Palestine for cheap labor.

The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians, is socialist revolution in Egypt. Whether there is a one or two state solution, it doesn't matter unless it's a socialist government. Under capitalism and with a nationalist outlook, how could water rights be negotiated for example? The Palestinian leaders only care about their own wealth. Why does Hamas use tactics that don't touch the Israeli state? Because they only want a handout for themselves. They don't care that the masses are being slaughtered.

FJ: Israel has existed for 60 years, therefore it's a legitimate state. The world calls those displaced by Zionism Palestinians. End of discussion. If the world calls DR of Congo or El Salvador a country, they are a country.

Cairo shut the borders.

Larry G: Israel faces no real threat from any country. What people don't know is, that the amount of weaponry and aid the US gives Israel has been a static amount. According to Stratfor, Israel's power is in its arm sales.

Jack: Thank you for visiting my blog. Hamas not held to the fire? I don't understand to who that is directed? I think Israel can't do without Hamas. Its tactics solidify Israeli popular opinion to the government. This attack is against civilians, not Hamas.

Mike: I think Israel needs Hamas. They play their role, and solidify Israeli public opinion.

What you are advocating won't happen. Most in Israel want a smaller Israel for the future.

Hamas uses its weapons against working class and poor Israelis. They don't send missiles to Tel Aviv. They are angling for negotiation.

mohamedhassan: I agree with you. Good analysis.

Last year's strike wave in Egypt was an important development. In the big picture from my viewpoint, a socialist Egypt is maybe the most important thing that could happen in the ME. If I could send organizers to the ME, I would pick Egypt as the place to go

RedKazim: Many people mistakenly believe that Judaism and Zionism are one and the same thing -- they are not.

It has to be taken into account you live in Pakistan. I could imagine you see that quite a bit.

Larry Gambone said...

Ren, I remember your comments on the failure of Maoist/Third World nationalist strategies. I cannot think of a better example of that failure than the PLO-Fatah.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

I don't know, if they want the world to come to Gaza for "cheap labor" they should change their tactics. Who would want to invest money in a place like that?

What is the basis for your wanting socialism in Egypt. I understand you want it as many places as you can get it, but why does Egypt qualify as a good starting point. I would think Lebanon would be the best option, but I don't claim to be an expert.

Under a capitalist economy, water rights are easily negotiated. That is because in order for a capitalist economy to be viable and sustainable, there has to be stability and security. Once that occurs, if ever, the Palestinian leadership, whoever they are at that point, will find themselves in a much more conducive position for all kinds of negotiations favorable to them.

Gambone-Whether you meant eliminate Israel as a country, or exterminate the Israelis as a people, the point is, the UN couldn't do a damn thing about either one. That's even being kind enough to assume they might want to.

The Pagan Temple said...

By the way, Ren, if you're still interested in recipes, I have one up now on my blog. It's a chili recipe, and its da bomb.

troutsky said...

This is like arguing whether it was a smart tactic for Sitting Bull to massacre Custer because it raised the ire of the US cavalry. People like FJ, Mike and Jack with no knowledge of history or real conditions would have been the ones calling for the extermination of the Indian welfare cheats. Shooting rockets into Israel may not be rational but just like the Indians they are dead meat either way.And just like the US after it stole all the land, Israel will someday apologize and give a few scholarships to well behaved Palestinian children.

Racists are racists,whether they are Nazis, Zionists or Americans.

The Pagan Temple said...

Yeah, Troutsky, the Indians were pretty much dead meat after they went about the business of butchering American settlers and kidnapping their women in children in the French and Indian War, and again during the Revolutionary War, and yet a third time during the War of 1812. That's something your average PC high school and college history courses tend to skip over, but that don't mean it didn't happen any more than it excuses the white man's more vicious atrocities going on for decades afterwards.

Bottom line, there were excesses on both sides, and that applies to the Israeli-Palestinian issue today. It's not all one sided. But as long as there are Palestinians attacking Israeli civilians, it's not going to change.

The simple fact is, there will be peace when Palestinians decide they love their children more than they hate the Israelis. Until then, it's going to be same old, same old.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: Egypt is a country, with an industrial base, and a strong working class. Socialism is best in wealthiest countries. It would spread more, than at somewhere as Gaza.

There really is no nationalist solution to Israel/Palestine.

Hamas's tactics are similar to Hezbollah. Last year Hezbollah marched into Beirut, killed people, and settled for a few administrative positions. Hamas only wants a piece of a neoliberal Palestine.

Water can't be negotiated, if there is a shortage. That's not the nature of the beast.

Larry: The Maoist PFLP only calls for "Palestinian unity," as their solution.

Troutsky: I agree.

Pagan: You are reading too much Cormac McCarthy.

nanc said...

God help you, ren.

perhaps you should go back and read the back of THE BOOK without your blinders on?

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Incognito said...

Troutsky says:
"Racists are racists,whether they are Nazis, Zionists or Americans."

and radical Islamists aren't?? give me a break.

Sigh.

Happy New Year Ren. This dialogue here truly saddens me.

Renegade Eye said...

I wish people would speak to what is in the post.

Incognito: Troutsky has no sympathy for Islamists.

I don't why it saddens you. There are several views represented.

Nanc: Happy New Year.

Take my word for it. Its about Nero and the Roman Empire.

CB said...

HNY Ren, everyone!

Iranian meddling needs to stop. If a Palestinian state were in the interests of Persia, Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas, Jamal Islamia or any of the groups advocating the destruction of Israel, there would be a Palestinian state.

Palestinians are hate filled not because of Israel but because of their "leaders." Hateful television commercials, they still teach the Protocols, etc... how can you enter a peace with someone who requires the blood of your children for breakfast?

Egypt closed its borders as has Jordan because they know what the Ayatollahs are doing and have been doing for 60 years. They have seen Israel be a peaceful neighbor but they've only seen aggression from Iran.

Finally, I love how non Jews try to separate the Jewish homeland from the faith with authority. Do they think anyone takes them seriously? See how seriously I am taken as an authority on Buddhism having only read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

It's just a matter of opinion. I think if socialism would work anywhere, it would be in a country in the process of development, but with potential, and with a variety of ethnic and/or cultural groups where it could make inroads towards unifying key segments of those communities. I think Egyptian potential is limited, but I could be wrong. There are too many people with too much to lose under a socialist system. That's just my immediate take.

Cormac McCarthy-I had never heard of him, so I didn't know what you meant, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. I still don't know what you mean.

By the way, Revolatiions is about the Roman Empire during the day, but it was also a prophecy about a future empire that would be even greater. It was based in part on the historical observation that each successive empire was larger and more powerful than the one that immediately preceded it. Taken to it's logical extreme, this process unchecked would eventually lead to an empire swallowing up the entirety of the world. Once it fell as all others before it, there would be nothing left but what they assumed would be the final awaited return to God's laws.

nanc said...

types and shadows, ren - types and shadows...

FJ said...

Ren,

Gaza has only existed as an cast-off criminally run state for a year. It's residents are Pseudostinians. Eventually, they will return to being called Egyptians... but only AFTER they re-learn who their master is.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: McCarthy writes about the violence, in settling America. I think he's incorrect being so even handed.

Socialism works best in the most developed countries.

Engels On Revelations.

Nanc: ?

FJ: A socialist Egypt could play a role in Gaza. The current government offers no solution.

The emphasis of Zionism and Islamism on taking civilian life, could open up a new movement, that could shove both aside.

The Zionist state is the most dependent on non-Jews, and is where Jews are in the most danger, than anywhere in the world.

Liberal White Boy said...

"Palestinians are hate filled not because of Israel but because of their "leaders." Hateful television commercials, they still teach the Protocols, etc... how can you enter a peace with someone who requires the blood of your children for breakfast?"

CB must still be feeling the effect of the handful of mushroom buttons he must have consumed on New Years Eve. To come up with shit like this he must still be halucinating.

Zionism is little more that a nationalistic movement of Eastern European fraudsters cloaked in extreme religion, also stolen from others, for the rest of us. If Palestinians are hate filled it probably has more to do with the fact that 70 percent of their land was stolen 60 years ago and now Apartheid Israel is doing their best to steal the rest, while brutalizing, oppressing and murdering the Palestinians. Their hate is no more complicated than that. The only ones drinking baby blood these day CB is the Weep's(White Eastern European Pretenders).

Larry Gambone said...

I don't think attacking and insulting Eastern European Jews adds anything to this discussion, LWB. All you are doing is fighting bigotry with bigotry and playing into the hands of the extremists here. It would be much better to center on the real problems here - the injustice and cruelty perpetuated against the Palestinian people and the failure of their leadership - trapped in the painful and false dichotomy of Islamism or secular Third world nationalism.

Larry Gambone said...

I just checked your blog, LWB. Its "Jews this and Jews that" You have crossed the line from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism.

Incognito said...

LARRY GAMBONE: Can't you tell from LWB's moniker that he's a an anti-semite..liberal WHITE BOY. And frankly... most anti-zionists are anti-semites, I don't care how much they claim otherwise.

Renegade Eye said...

Incognito: FJ said: The only reason that the Pseudostinians stay in Gaza is to collect their welfare checks from UNWRA. Take away their welfare checks, and they'd all be too busy earning a living in Cairo to care about launching rockets into Israel. Would you say that kind of talk is not racism? No mention that the Gaza citrus was bulldozed by Israel.

Zionism has been unable to keep its promise. Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews, and most dependent on non-Jews, than anywhere in the world.

Israel's tactics will not hurt Hamas. Hamas will survive for sure. The timing and severity of Israel's attack, is for domestic consumption, to be tougher than Benjamin Netanyahu, at the coming elections. Israel has a history of bombing, when the government has scandals, to divert from them.

At the end of the post, is a program I think is worthy of support.

Don't for a minute think Zionists won't sit down in the end with the Islamists. If Israel really wanted to destroy Hamas, it would send ground troops.

LWB: Israel is a satellite of the US. It does what its master tells it to do. When the US tells them they can't bomb Iran, they shelf their plans.

Zionism is little more that a nationalistic movement of Eastern European fraudsters cloaked in extreme religion, also stolen from others, for the rest of us. If Palestinians are hate filled it probably has more to do with the fact that 70 percent of their land was stolen 60 years ago and now Apartheid Israel is doing their best to steal the rest, while brutalizing, oppressing and murdering the Palestinians. Their hate is no more complicated than that. The only ones drinking baby blood these day CB is the Weep's(White Eastern European Pretenders).

These old Europeans had their pensions cut by the Zionist state. They are victims of Zionism.

In Tel Aviv the Communist Party got 35% of the mayoral vote.

Neither Hamas or Zionists care about civilian casualties. The big moment in Middle eastern history will be when these civilians take history into their hands.

Most Israels want a smaller, not a larger Israel. Between Zionist deception and Hamas's tactics, the majority can't be heard.

Again I agree with the program at the bottom of the post.

Larry: On Tuesday the Maoists led a confrontation with 40 people at a senators office. They support the PFLP, which called for UN action (LOL). They had a Jewish speaker, who talked about the "Jewish Lobby." No word of criticism of Hamas's tactics.

Today they had a news conference from the local Islamic Center. I bet they said zero about Hamas.

Zahid said...

I was reading another blog regarding the Massacre in Gaza.
As I mentioned earlier that US is acting in the hands of Israel is clear with the following quote: The Democratic party grandee Ann Lewis said recently (as quoted in an excellent Salon column by Glenn Greenwald): "The role of the president of the United States is to support the decisions that are made by the people of Israel."
This is what is reality and moreover the main stream media is in the support of Israel because of it. I hope Israel lobby is not overrated at least in case of US.

An excellent blog about the acts of Israel for terrorizing the regions and US blind policies can be read at

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/rules-of-engagement-from_b_154669.html

I think this clears most of the doubts about the subject.

How Israel is fooling around the world by using mainstream media and war brands like F16 from US. The initial step was to brand Hamas a local political party as terrorist and them after they won the democratic elections, how Israel rejected the elections and called them was really clear after reading the entire blog.

The only solution to this US and mainstream media should stop blindly supporting and endorsing any nation.

FJ said...

Would you say that kind of talk is not racism? No mention that the Gaza citrus was bulldozed by Israel.

Whiter Shade of Pale, Procol Harum

If music be the food of love
Then laughter is its queen
And likewise if behind is in front
Then dirt in truth is clean

My mouth by then like cardboard
Seemed to slip straight through my head
So we crash-dived straightway quickly
And attacked the ocean bed

Liberal White Boy said...

Larry sniffs...

I just checked your blog, LWB. Its "Jews this and Jews that" You have crossed the line from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism.

I'm screwed now Larry has branded me an anti-Semite one of the most fraudulent terms in the English language.

By allowing certain Jews to hide under the skirts of their Jewishness, we have allowed the creation of the Apartheid Jewish State now slaughtering its non Jewish subjects. Yes Larry it is a Jewish State, they say so themselves. Why should I call them Zionists. Zionism is nothing more than the political movement facilitating the land theft. The fact that these fraudsters claim some historical right to this land makes their origins relevant whether you like it or not. We must call a spade a spade. Oh shit, now incognito is going to think I have something against people of color. But not a single post about people of color. No my focus is on the worlds other white people. The most successful, affluent and well organized ethnicity on the face of the planet. And even most of these former Eastern Europeans I have nothing against until they start making their frauds my problem. Lets face it Larry, the man has become the mannstein. Very much in need of some critisism.

Larry Gambone said...

You cannot collectively blame a people for crimes committed by some members of that group. For example, I abhor attempts to blame “the Germans” for Hitler, or “the French” for Vichy, as though there were no great masses of progressives opposed to fascism in those countries. So too with Jews and Zionism. There have always been Jews, both secular and religious, opposed to Zionism. Both Ren and I have comrades in Israel opposed to the attacks on the Palestinians. As for “Anti-Semitism” , just because some people mis-use a term doesn't mean it no longer has value. Right-wingers say the same about “racism” that you do about anti-Semitism.

Larry Gambone said...

Farm Boy must have run out of irrelevant classical references to post. Now he is stooping to 1960's pop music...

I am soooo impressed.

Renegade Eye said...

Zahid: The character of the Israeli state is one of being a satellite of the US. To some extent so is Egypt.

Israel toes the line of the US. When the US dropped plans of an Iran invasion, so did Israel.

It is not logical that a country like Israel, could dictate to the worlds biggest military power.

LWB: By the logic of your position, you'd be perfect for Hamas. They shoot artillery into the air, as long as it lands on a Jew, all is fine. See where it gets them.

If the Palestinians had full control of Gaza, they would still have a bad life. I think their best hope is a socialist Egypt, with no border, free healthcare, schooling etc.

All Hamas and Fatah offer, is a power struggle for crumbs at the table.

Zionism, nationalism and Islamism have no realistics solutions.

Hamas is doing a poor job of protecting Palestinian civilians. They are as scared of palestinian workers as they are of Zionism. Why doesn't Hamas arm Palestinians?

Just think the new nation of Kosovo's economy is mostly tied to Serbia's. There is no national liberation anymore. That is out of date, with a world economy.

Jews are hurt by Zionism, not as much as Palestinians.

If a state exists for 60 years it is a state that is recognized. You can't go back.

Most Zionists want a palestinian state to exist. It won't be pretty. Hamas and Fatah will invite corporations to exploit Palestinians, while they get rich.

Nobody is going back 60 yrs. Some Palestinians will return to Israel. Some peoples homes are now parks and museums.

My perspective is Larry's.

FJ: Your position is a dead end as well. Israel will sit down with Hamas soon.

The Pagan Temple said...

Hamas doesn't just want to be a part of Egypt, anymore than they want to just have a state of Palestine. What they want is a dissolution of all borders of the Arab world, and for the nation of Israel to be swallowed up within those borders. They want freedom of movement within the Arab world from one place to another. The names of current Arab countries would be no more than quaint geographic designations to them then. That is I suppose the dream of the revived Caliphate.

You don't have to take my word for this. Watch any Palestinian children's program and you can see this concept taught as an article of faith.

What the Arabs in other countries want might well be a different matter, and what the leadership of those countries want is most definitely a different matter.

Ren, while your vision of a socialist Egypt that includes Gaza might well work-it would definitely be an improvement-there is the question of whether the current government of Egypt would be willing to accept such an arrangement. They would probably view the Palestinians as a force of potential instability, to say the least, and they would probably be right.

Larry Gambone said...

Ren, I have been thinking about the historical context of the origins of the secular Palestinian liberation movement which began in the late 1940's with George Habash's Arab Nationalist Movement, and later in the mid-1950's, Al Fatah. These developed within the global context of Third world nationalism and Stalinism. This period was also the nadir point for authentic socialism. Thus the Palestinian movement could only be militantly nationalistic, and its propaganda and actions created a “them vs. us” situation of Israelis vs. Palestinians. But if a movement is to be successful in any great measure it ought not to unify its opponents, indeed should seek to turn a significant section of the dominating nation over to its side. (As Gandhi did with Great Britain) Had there been a socialist movement among Palestinians it would have reached out to the Israeli working class and its actions would have sought to divide both the Palestinian and Israeli peoples from their respective bourgeoisies. But given the historical context, a Palestinian socialist movement could not arise and thus the present tragedy. Thus, the world is still paying for the defeats of the 1920's and 1930's and the legacy of Stalinism.

Renegade Eye said...

Larry G: In the 1960s, Fatah representatives went to the UK, to meet with Ted Grant and get advice. He told them to not do terrorism, hijack planes etc. In addition he said not to be involved with negotiated settlements, instead have a revolutionary outcome. They didn't follow a word he told them.

In the 1970s Fatah portrayed itself socialist. They had meetings with socialist leaders everywhere. I was at a small meeting with someone from Fatah's "central command." He said all the things, a 1960s wanted to hear. They said they were secular and were not against Jewish people. I don't know when the right turn occured. They rejected antisemitism, but it turned out is nationalism poisoned them.

Pagan: When you think of a country the population size and strength of Egypt being socialist, arguing one state or two state solution is small potatoes. The US satellite Egypt has to be overthrown.

Hamas wants to control Palestine. Their tactics and strategy is one of only being top voice in Palestinian government.

I haven't seen really the "revived Calafate" scenario from Hamas. They think too small.

The Pagan Temple said...

"I haven't seen really the "revived Calafate" scenario from Hamas. They think too small."

They don't necessarily use that exact term, but they do propose eliminating all borders of the Arab world and allowing freedom of movement within the Arab world.

They also teach that Arabs are the predestined masters of the world, that all advances in civilization are due to Arabs, etc. They even teach this on a Palestinian children's program, "The Pioneers Of Tomorrow". Think a Hamas version of the Mouseketeers, complete with Farfour the Rabbit and a Killer Bee -both of whom have been "martyred" (i,e, murdered by Jews, their deaths portrayed on the program), and replaced for now by a Jew-eating bunny (who will probably eventually also be "martyred" and replaced, probably once he acquired the sufficient popularity for his "martyrdom" to have the desired impace.

It's hosted by a cute-as-a-button little Palestinian girl (probably the daughter or granddaughter of a mid-level Hamas official) who discusses all these things with the characters mentioned, including how the Jews are filthy murderers, the names of various "martyrs" are mentioned, etc. There's also a call-in segment where Palestinian children can call in and ask questions and get the standard Hamas party-line answer.

If it wasn't so scary it would be hilarious.

There was another children's program which was a puppet show. In it, a Palestinian child murders George Bush. Right before he kills him, he informs Bush a group of Palestinian children have taken over the White House, which will now become a mosque.

This is the kind of people you are dealing with, and is precisely why I don't particularly care that they are getting their asses handed to them right now.

Larry Gambone said...

10,000 people in Tel Aviv marched against the war. See
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3288

The Pagan Temple said...

Wow, a full one percent at the very most of the people of Israel got bussed in to Tel Aviv, many of whom probably just wanted a ride to the city where they knew they'd be safe. Big deal. How many Palestinians demonstrated against Hamas firing rockets into Israeli territory? I bet'cha none.

Stick a fork in Hamas. They're done. The Israelis have divided the territory and surrounded the largest city. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I hope the Israelis turn every damn one of the Hamas members into human torches and make all the Palestinian kids watch them burn and scream.

Take that, Pioneers of Tomorrow.

Larry Gambone said...

10,000 people MARCHING. If they had come to get away they wouldn't have been in a peace march, now would they? This march is significant in that it shows, once again how the Israeli population is not just made up of right wingers, racists and war mongers.

No one here supports, admires, or defends Hamas, so why go on about them?

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: Wow, a full one percent at the very most of the people of Israel got bussed in to Tel Aviv, many of whom probably just wanted a ride to the city where they knew they'd be safe. Big deal.

Qualitative change can lead to quantitative change. Quantitative change can lead to qualitative change. A small group can change a large group, and a large group can change a small group. That is part of dialectics.

Combined with Tel Aviv in large numbers voted lately for the Communist Party.

Larry: Zionists would rather deal with Hamas, than those demonstrators.

Larry Gambone said...

My experience is that for every person demonstrating there are 20 or so others who are not there but who are sympathetic to the ideas of the demonstration. One example only. 250,000 Quebecois demonstrated against the Iraq War in 2003. Polls showed 80% of the population of Quebec opposed the war, or about 5,000,000 people, which works out to 20 supporters for every demonstrator.
Using a similar relationship for Israel, this means the anti-war forces comprise about 200,000 people, a significant number in such a small population.

The Pagan Temple said...

That's still a minority. Plus, bear in mind, just because a significant percentage of the population opposes "war" doesn't necessarily mean the same people as a whole support the causes and aims of the Palestinian leadership. They're just suffering from a collective case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on a national scale. They want it over with, and they don't really care if that means they have to give up a significant lot. They just have grown and seen constant war and see that it never seems to get them anywhere, and they don't see this as adding up to anything any different.

Bottom line, if Hamas isn't destroyed, and if Fatah isn't at least greatly reformed from top to bottom, it doesn't matter what they're willing to give up, it will never be enough.

Larry Gambone said...

"just because a significant percentage of the population opposes "war" doesn't necessarily mean the same people as a whole support the causes and aims of the Palestinian leadership.'
How often do I have to remind you that:
1. No one here supports the Palestinian leadership. Furthermore,
2. Anarchists and Ren-type Trotskyists do not favor nationalism, period.
3. The Peace Movement, other than a minority, does not support the Palestinian leadership either.

The Pagan Temple said...

I know most people here don't support the Palestinian leadership. My main point is that the Israelis should not be so amenable to peace deals with the Palestinian leadership, because, again, they can never give up enough, or too much, to suit Hamas or, if the truth was known, Fatah.

As for the "Peace Movement", it would be nice if they did not support the Palestinian leadership. Hopefully the ones that formed human shields around Arafat and others of his ilk are what make up that "minority" you talked about.

It would be a freezing cold day in a place ten times hotter than hell ever dreamed of being before I'd risk life and limb to protect bastards like them.

Larry Gambone said...

Ren , here is a quick little translation I did...

Interview with Michel Warshawski in the French libertarian communist publication, “Alternative Libertaire”

Asked about the anti-war and anti-colonial movement among Israelis he responded, “ That it is necessary to distinguish the two groups, the anti-colonialist one has 2-3000 members, it is doing well but remains marginal. The peace movement, much larger is losing some of its force.

Asked about the importance of the Anarchists Against the Wall. “ They have an important place. It is a movement that I am especially fond of... a movement of the young who are more or less the vanguard...very much in tune with the problems of Israeli society... a symbol of change. The youth of Israel have woken up.”

Michel Warshawski is an Israeli anti-colonial militant of the 4th International.

Renegade Eye said...

Larry G: The demonstrations in Israel are unprecedented. Never have so many people demonstrated so early into an Israeli war. During Lebanon 2006, it was several weeks before the first demonstrations.

I have a link to a blog that linked to me, that is anarcho-Zionist. I'll email you if you are interested in why we're not in the IVth Int'l.

Pagan: I don't know activists who support Hamas. I do know some who don't say anything against them publcly.

The Pagan Temple said...

Well, they damn well ought to be just as hard on Hamas and Fatah as they are on the Israelis. Until they are, nobody is going to take them seriously when they protest Israeli "atrocities". Do take note of the quotation marks, because as far as I'm concerned, any comparison of Israeli wrongdoing to that of Hamas or Fatah is a sick joke.

Renegade Eye said...

Israel's atrocity ratio to Hamas's 500 to 1. Israel killed more people in 3,5 minutes, than the whole existance of Hamas.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren and Larry, the Israeli bourgoise you complain about are actually not Zionists, but westernized liberal elites. Zionists don't want this war, never did, and Zionist rightwing leader Moshe Feiglin has spoken out loudly against it from the beginning.

The reason? It has no objective. You don't go to war simply to kill a few hundred of your enemies, bomb their buildings, lose a few of your own men, too, and then retreat back to the exact same untenable situation you started with.

Truth: All this is is phony political posturing by Labor and Kadima to gain votes in next month's elections. Lives are being lost so that Livni and Barak can gain political support from voters tired of terror, which is simply tragic if you see through the ruse.

More Truth: Zionists want an end to the conflict while liberal elites want it to continue inperpetuity. Our solution is not more of the same, but to achieve lasting peace by deporting the arabs living in the Land of Israel to arab lands where they can live as true citizens of a country that represents their religion, culture, language, and way of life.

Israel should only go to war to attain these goals. Go to war to annex Gaza and repatriate the arabs to Egypt. Go to war in Judea and Samaria to repatriate the arabs to Jordan. Have war in Northern Israel to repatriate the arabs to Lebanon. These are wars that are waged to end the original war of independence once and for all, a war that will leave Israel as a State of Jews rather than a mixed multitude with arabs being the angry, bitter, raging, seething minority.

Zionists want lasting peace and have a real solution to achieve it that would have minimal casualties, while liberal elites seek nothing but continued misery, death, terror and perpetual war for both Jews and arabs alike.

The Pagan Temple said...

"liberal elites seek nothing but continued misery, death, terror and perpetual war for both Jews and arabs alike."

Exactly. And the UN is the biggest offender and facilitator in this regard. My only disagreement with MZ, and agreement with Ren, is in regards to Gaza, which I think should be annexed by Egypt. It never belonged to Israel even in Biblical days. It was alloted to the Tribe of Dan, but they never consolidated their claims.

And to those who protest that we should not decide this matter on this basis, my question is then in that case, why were the Jews settled in Israel to begin with?

I would also suggest that all Palestinian heads of households should be compensated to the tune of four million dollars a piece, with three million deposited in a safe bank account in Zurich, in order to prevent greedy Arab chieftains from getting their greedy, grubby hands on it. The rightful owners can live off the interest and settle in whatever place-Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc., is most to their liking.

This is only fair. These people did, after all, live in Israel for many successive generations before the foundation of the nation of Israel by the criminal UN organization. The UN should facilitate such a compensation as their last official act, whereupon they should leave the world stage and fade away. Let their last act at least be an honorable one-it would arguably be their only one.

I am very much afraid MZ is right in another regard. This current stage of hostilities is an election ploy by the major Israeli parties. After Obama takes office, and the Israeli election is decided one way or another, it's doubtless going to go back to the same old crap.

That's a shame, because all of this ridiculous nonsense about "proportional response" to the contrary, as long as Hamas and Fatah are allowed to remain as official spokespersons for the Palestinian cause, there will always be war. And unfortunately there will always be those who promote this as an inevitability on the grounds that "those people have been fighting for thousands of years". Which of course is nonsense.

Before the foundation of the modern state of Israel, I think there were three or maybe four wars between Jews, or Israelites, and Arabs. The last two of these were mere border skirmishes fought between the Herods and their Arab neighbors and in-laws, the Nabataeans. In other words, they were pretty much family squabbles.

This crap doesn't have to keep on going, but as long as so many people have a vested interest in seeing it do so, they will think of any excuse in the book to make sure it does so. Complaining about proportionate responses is missing the boat. If there weren't any provocations by Hamas and Fatah, no response, proportionate or otherwise, would be necessary.

RedKnight said...

"Ren and Larry, the Israeli bourgoise you complain about are actually not Zionists, but westernized liberal elites. Zionists don't want this war, never did, and Zionist rightwing leader Moshe Feiglin has spoken out loudly against it from the beginning.

The reason? It has no objective. You don't go to war simply to kill a few hundred of your enemies, bomb their buildings, lose a few of your own men, too, and then retreat back to the exact same untenable situation you started with.

Truth: All this is is phony political posturing by Labor and Kadima to gain votes in next month's elections. Lives are being lost so that Livni and Barak can gain political support from voters tired of terror, which is simply tragic if you see through the ruse.

More Truth: Zionists want an end to the conflict while liberal elites want it to continue inperpetuity. Our solution is not more of the same, but to achieve lasting peace by deporting the arabs living in the Land of Israel to arab lands where they can live as true citizens of a country that represents their religion, culture, language, and way of life.

Israel should only go to war to attain these goals. Go to war to annex Gaza and repatriate the arabs to Egypt. Go to war in Judea and Samaria to repatriate the arabs to Jordan. Have war in Northern Israel to repatriate the arabs to Lebanon. These are wars that are waged to end the original war of independence once and for all, a war that will leave Israel as a State of Jews rather than a mixed multitude with arabs being the angry, bitter, raging, seething minority.

Zionists want lasting peace and have a real solution to achieve it that would have minimal casualties, while liberal elites seek nothing but continued misery, death, terror and perpetual war for both Jews and arabs alike.

Posted by Mad Zionist | 07 January, 2009 21:22" So in other words, you seek an Israel that is arab free, with expanded borders. This is reminiscent of Nazi Germany, with it's "judenfreid", and "lebensraum". http://islamicmyths.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/flag_israel_nazi.gif

Renegade Eye said...

MZ: Yet the Zionist bourgeoisie has no clear strategy, even though some of the objectives are clear: redemption for the military and political establishment following the 2006 fiasco in Lebanon (and covering up for four years of bombastic rhetoric and deliberate leaks about long-range bombing exercises in preparation for attacking Iran); boosting Kadima and Labour at the expense of Likud; weakening Hamas and establishing new 'facts on the ground' before the next ceasefire is agreed; and improving their position before the Obama government is sworn in. This assessment from my comrades, is amazingly similar to your assessment. The conclusions you come to I believe are incorrect.

There are I believe material reasons for secularism in Israel. In the days of feudalism, because of antisemitism, Jews were relagated to certain occupations. Jews controlled money, except at that time power and wealth was in owning land. That is where Shylock, Dante's Inferno comes from. Nobody talks about money in those days didn't have equivalance as today. As modern capitalism progressed, skills that belonged to Jews, became universal. Less need for Jewish identity.

The leaders of Israel are subserviant to US interests. Israel is the US's satellite.

Red Knight: Thank you for visiting. I hope you take part often in discussions.

I never use Nazi analogies. MZ is openly to the right of Atilla the Hun.

Pagan: Palestinians have a case to overthrow both Fatah and Hamas. Neither had a policy to defend the masses against Israel. They are afraid of armong Palestinian workers, more than Israel.

Mad Zionist said...

Pagan, Zionists consider Gaza part of Eretz Israel, as you eluded to, and therefore want it fully annexed as Israel. It also was a huge fruit and vegetable producing region while run by Zionists, accounting for over 1/3 of all Israeli produce production.

Meanwhile, Egypt would rather be plagued with boils, locusts and frogs than be given Gaza, so there is really no need to argue with them over the land rights. They only use the strip as distraction for the Muslim Brotherhood's focus and resources, as they're the parent organization of Hamas and threaten the Mubarik dictatorial regime's stranglehold of power.

Egypt wants no part of the Palestinians, even less so than Israel does, so what would have to happen for them being repatriated in Egypt is carving out a quasi Palestinian State in the Sinai region where nobody feels threatened militarily and oil resources are available to sustain a viable economy.

The West Bank is 90% Jordanian Palestinians, most of whom were deported forcibly by King Hussein out of Jordan back in the 70's. They can easily be sent back home, with the financial cost being Israel's to bear for the repatriation.

What Israel needs to assure the governments of Jordan and Egypt is that they will do everything in their power to work with the regimes to prevent dangerous chaos from ensuing by providing sufficient wealth to eliminate poverty riots.

Where does the wealth come from? Easy, Israel simply transfers all $5 billion dollars they receive from the US to the refugees and the governments that will be absorbing them.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren, the Israeli liberal elites in power may be subservient to US interests, as well as European interests, but the Zionists most certainly are not. Zionists loathe the way the Olmert's, Netanyahu's, Barak's, Livni's, etc. all bow to the US master. What Zionists want most of all is Jewish independence, both from the arabs within and America abroad. No more concessions to the terrorists within, and no more kowtowing to the money bearers who want to call the shots.

The biggest lie is the one about how Zionists want war. We want to end the need for war by remedying the factors in place today that make peace an impossibility.

Larry Gambone said...

Mad Zionist, isn't saying that the only Zionists are those who wish to expel the Palestinians and take over all the historical territory of Palestine, a bit like claiming the only socialists are those who are “ultra-leftists? How do you explain the history of left-wing Zionism? See
http://www.mideastweb.org/labor_zionism.htm
and this is interesting too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

While I am about it, ethnic cleansing is also a form of genocide...

Liberal White Boy said...

There is no such thing as left wing Zionism. These people are national socialists. That makes them Nazis. Ashkenazis. With no more claim to Palestine than the man on the moon. Call a spade a spade.

Mad Zionist said...

Larry, Socialist Zionism is extinct. True Zionism is the belief that Israel is the eternal home for the Jewish people, and that it is our obligation to settle it and posses it. It's our promised land, and we will never agree to compromise a single inch of our exclusive inheritance.

Transfer has nothing to do with genocide. Almost 100,000 Jews living in Israel today were forcibly expelled from arab countries. 90% of the Palestinians have been expelled from arab countries. The plan of transfer is to save lives on both sides, Larry, not to exterminate.

To people claim a single land for themselves, but only one can posses it. My plan ends the dispute, and brings peace. The Two-Staters and Binational-Staters are only perpetuating the brutal conflict, and thus advocating indefinite suffering and death to both Jews and arabs who never know resolution.

My plan offers both sides peace. Let's give peace a chance.

Mad Zionist said...

Correction: It was 1,000,000 Jews expelled from arab lands not 100,000. Sorry!

Eitan said...

Ren: Seems like I've joined the fray a little too late.

Socialist Zionism? Still exists, MZ. Look at Labor and Meretz. Left-wing M.K.'s will claim that Israel has historic and moral rights to the Land of Israel. G-d is absent from the equation.

It's religious Zionism which sadly enough, is not making a very good case in Israel right now. Feiglin, Kleiner, Begin and Zhabotinsky are with the Likud and Kach is illegal. Go figure!

troutsky: I'm sure TROTSKY (that's how the name of the miserable idiot is spelled fyi) was not a racist just as I'm sure you are an expert on history. Nice try, though! You guys keep coming up with quality lines...

Eitan said...

Zahid: I just want you to know I respect you (even if that's not mutual). You seem to want to understand our side of the conflict rather than regurgitating olf pan-Arabic propaganda. Good for you!

Mad Zionist said...

Eitan, Socialist Zionism of Israel's early years is long dead. The parties you mentioned are not at all representative of that ideology.

Meretz is a post-Zionist party of social liberalism, while Labor represents pro-union capitalism and land concessions to the Arabs. Neither camp is Zionist regarding the Land of Israel.

Eitan said...

MZ: Socialist Zionism ala Mapai/Raz continues within the ranks of Meretz. You're probably right about Labor, though.

Larry Gambone said...

Mad Zionist, forcing people out of a territory they have historically inhabited is ethnic cleansing, which in turn is considered part of genocide. Hence, both the Jews driven out of Arab lands and the Palestinians driven out of their lands are victims of ethnic cleansing.

The Pagan Temple said...

It might be ethnic cleansing but it's not genocide.

Mad Zionist said...

Larry, population transfer isn't immoral. Extermination and transfer are entirely different words and meanings. I advocate for Jews and believe the land belongs to the Jewish people, so naturally I support transferring the vanquished arabs out of the disputed territories instead of the victorious Jews.

Two people can claim one land, but only one can have it. Israel clearly must remove the people who are fighting to take the land from them, or they will never realize peace. The vanquished, defeated people must be humanely transferred to a surrounding nation that reflects their culture, language and religion.

To keep this conflict going: that is what is inhumane. Both sides can't win, both sides can't have it their way. One side wins, one side loses, and it's about time to end this tragic fiasco that's being endlessly perpetuated to benefit the agendas of those who don't care about the well being of either the Zionists or the Arabs.

The Pagan Temple said...

MZ-

I think this whole thing is a leftist experiment in social engineering. Israel and the Palestinians territories are like one big laboratory to these people. It's an attempt to try to change people's cultural prejudices. If it works there, it will work anywhere. That's why they're so determined to see it succeed.

Larry Gambone said...

That is total rubbish Pagan, and you know better than to write stuff like that. People want to avoid genocide/ethnic cleansing of either party in the dispute.

Mad Zionist, two (or more) peoples can occupy the same territory. All they need do is be willing to share the territory. It has happened more than several times. And although there are disputes, these same peoples are not shooting each other.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, come on, think about it. Look how long this stuff has been going on. It's been going on for sixty years, with no end in sight. Why should anybody think the same old shit is ever going to work any better than it ever did?

So up pop the French and Egypt, urging yet another meaningless cease-fire. Okay, so let's say the two sides eventually agree to this. Is there any doubt in any reasonable person's mind as to the prospect that it will actually be a lasting cease-fire, and will lead to peace?

Of course it won't. Within a few short months, if not weeks, Hamas will be lobbing more rockets into Israeli territory, or maybe they will do something else.

This crap hasn't worked in sixty years, and it won't work in another six hundred years. It's time to try a fresh approach. I'm not saying what that is, because I don't have a clue, but I do know these people are never going to get along as long as the UN and the US, EU, etc., keeps insisting on the status quo.

Forced desegregation hasn't ended racism, nor will it, and this crap isn't going to gradually grow peace over the years either, it's just going to keep the hate smoldering beneath the surface at best, until there is the inevitable eruption, time after time after time.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, of course other countries are involved in this and want to keep the pot boiling. But that truth is a far cry from some paranoid fantasy that the left wants this as some kind of social experiment. And what exactly do you mean by "forced desegregation" and what for you is a realistic goal for "ending racism"? (No method could eliminate it entirely, as these attitudes are learned early in life and had to get rid of. Many/most people's attitudes don't change much after about age 20.)

Larry Gambone said...

That should read "hard to get rid of"

Incognito said...

Pagan Temple is right..Peace will NEVER be possible as long as Hamas (and others like Iran) maintains the following:

from their Charter

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

I don't want to get this discussion bogged down in an irrelevant discussion of American race relations, let's stick to the matter at hand.

Would you say there are those on the right that are using this as an excuse to bring about the return of Christ? Even if you don't believe they do, do you concede there are those who believe many on the right are doing that? I will tell you plainly, I think there are many Christians on the right who are doing precisely that, and I think it is absolutely atrocious behavior.

The recognition of this, what I view is a fact, is no more or less paranoid than my statement that many on the left-I will qualify my statement and repeat "many" on the left, as opposed to all-see this as some great social engineering experiment, with Israel and the Palestinians one big laboratory.

How else do you explain this insistence on continuing this nonsense, this crap that has never worked and never will work? The obvious answer is, they think it will eventually work. That is social engineering and experimentation, in my book.

I hope you read that last post by Incognito and take it to heart. As long as the Palestinian people are led by these mutant crumb bums, all the social experimentation and good intentions in the world are not going to make a dime's worth of difference.

Incognito-thank you for pointing that out.

Larry Gambone said...

The Christofacist types make no bones about supporting Israel in order to bring about the Armageddon - after which, of course, they will then sit back and laugh as the Zionists they have used are condemned to burn in Hell. I have never in my life met anyone on the left who though in such instrumentalist terms visa vis the Israeli - Palestine issue, or whose words and writing even hinted at such a thing. People want an equitable settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis out of a sense of justice, no more. I do agree, however, that this could be seen as somewhat naive. But naivety is one thing, and a "hidden agenda" is another. Trying to make out that we do is paranoia.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone-

The classic definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and thinking each time you are going to eventually get the desired result, despite the countless failure after failure you typically get.

Ergo, the internationalists, mainly leftists, who pursue these policies are insane, and they are pushing their insanity off on the Israelis and the Palestinian people (do take not I make a distinction between the Palestinian people and the mutant sub-human scum that make up Hamas and Fatah).

If you can just accept the proposition that these people are indeed as crazy as shit house rats, which any thinking person should be able to discern, why is it such a stretch to imagine that in at least some cases, these same people might see themselves as involved in some great social engineering "humanitarian" experiment?

Otherwise, what could possibly be the point of this madness?

Incognito said...

The most telling Article from the Hamas Charter re. Peace, for the fools who are in denial and still think the Palestinians want it:

Article Thirteen:

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it:
The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)


Pull your heads out of the sand.

The Pagan Temple said...

Incognito-

While I agree in spirit with what you are basically trying to say, I would encourage you to try to recognize that there is a profound difference between Hamas and Fatah, and the Palestinian people in general.

That's an important distinction. Fatah is probably as corrupt as it ever was, and Hamas are of course religious extremists. The Palestinian people are like a big ship cast about on an angry indifferent ocean between the Scylla of Hamas on the one side, and the Charybdis of Fatah on the other. The actual people are given no other choice than between these two scum.

Hamas came into power due mainly to Fatah's almost proverbial corruption, doing so by establishing social services, orphanages, hospitals, and various other charitable activities.

I honestly think that if Hamas were totally destroyed, and Fatah was reformed from top to bottom (at the very least) and the people were given viable legitimate options to represent their interests, things would be different. It wouldn't happen overnight of course. There is going to be a lot of residual long-term bitterness yet. But the influence of these two hideously monstrous organizations is the main block to progress, and their eradication would be the first major step toward transformation.

Whatever replaces them though can't be just a puppet of the US, Israel, or the UN. They have to be tough enough to actually stand for the Palestinian people and their interests-and yes, that means conducting war if necessary, though against military and other legitimately strategic targets-yet at the same time sensible enough to know when to reach out and accept reasonable compromises and offer reasonable concessions in return.

All of this is why I dearly hope Israel utterly destroys Hamas-every single man, woman, and especially immam. If they don't, if the Israelis give in to international pressures and Hamas holds power, it's an opportunity lost, possibly for decades, if not forever.

Larry Gambone said...

"why is it such a stretch to imagine that in at least some cases, these same people might see themselves as involved in some great social engineering "humanitarian" experiment?"

Because you need proof for such a statement. You can't engage in such wild speculation and be taken seriously.

I don't think the progressive view is insane, though as I said before it might be seen as naive. I think the goal is that both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples will get fed up with their respective mis-leaders, dump them and then strike some kind of rational compromise.

If you look at history a lot of what is now accepted was once seen as insane and the struggle to introduce these policies was defeated over and over again. Yet, by persisting, these policies eventually won out and the cynics are the ones who now look like fools. I am not saying that the progressive view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in that category, but one should not be took quick to write them off as you do.

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