Sunday, September 09, 2007

The Iraq War Comes Home to Roost

Like the Katrina disaster two years ago, the collapse of the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis, MN is yet another reminder of the real effects of the capitalist policy of “guns before butter”. A key bridge in a city with some of the worst rush hour congestion in the country, it is just one of the 73,784 U.S. bridges found by the American Society for Civil Engineers (ASCE) to be “structurally deficient or functionally obsolete” – including 64.8 percent of the bridges in Washington, DC. The thirteen people who lost their lives are just part of the tragedy.

The disrepair of the country’s roads and the lack of an efficient public transportation system results in an incalculable amount of lost time, stress, and exhaustion, as over ten million U.S. workers now spend an hour or more each way on their way to work. In the ten years beginning in 1995, the number of miles driven has increased by 23 percent, while the length of the roads has gone up by 2 percent. That’s a tremendous increase in traffic and wear, particularly on urban arterial roads, 27 percent of which are now classified as “poor”. Between 1960 and 1965 the U.S. built 144,000 miles of new highway. Between 2000 and 2005 it added just 59,000 miles, although the population has grown by over 60 percent since 1960. This graphically reflects the real priorities of the ruling class – to invest the minimum necessary to keep commerce moving and profits flowing.

During the post-WWII economic boom, the capitalist class could afford to make some concessions to the working class while still pursuing its aggressive foreign policy. Now, faced with a looming economic crisis and a choice between imperialist adventures abroad and fixing crumbling schools, social services, and infrastructure at home, the ruling class’ only solution is to increase the attacks on workers at home and around the world.

The ASCE report gave U.S. public infrastructure an overall grade of “D”, concluding that $1.6 trillion would be needed over a five-year period to address problems with roads, bridges and other systems. This seems an incredible amount of money, which we are constantly told is not there. And yet billions upon billions of dollars have been spent in Iraq, which has benefited no one but the big corporations and their cronies in government. It has certainly not benefited the 3,750 U.S. soldiers killed so far in the war, or the 1,809 Iraqi civilians killed in July alone. And just think how many bridges, schools, and hospitals could be built with the estimated $12 million being spent every hour on the occupation?

A safe and efficient transportation network is clearly in the public interest. Massive investment is needed to rebuild and modernize it, including the expansion of rail, light rail, bus, and other forms of mass public transportation, which will not only increase the system’s efficiency, but also reduce fuel costs and the impact on the environment. Further privatization of the system is not the answer; a “solution” some have advanced in the aftermath of the Minneapolis collapse. On the contrary, the entire system should be nationalized under democratic public control.

To ensure that public resources are put to efficient and fully accountable use, the government must end the practice of using private contractors, and instead launch a massive program of public works, creating hundreds of thousands of jobs with union wages, benefits and representation. It is clear that the current big business government will never do this. Nor will the big business government to follow. For this to happen, U.S. workers will need a party of their own, a party that puts the interests of the majority first. We cannot expect the representatives of another class to defend our interests.

For its part, the Bush administration is in a mess, with the rats jumping ship faster than ever. White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and chief architect of Bush’s electoral campaigns and presidency, Karl Rove, have all left in recent weeks, the latter two under a cloud of scandal and controversy.
With the Iraq War rapidly draining the national treasury and the public’s patience, it’s no wonder they want to get out while they still can, most likely into lucrative careers in the private sector. A recent opinion poll showed that Americans are as concerned about corruption in government and the economy as they are about the war in Iraq. This is an indication of things to come, as opposition to the war begins to shift to domestic issues, as the war inevitably starts to wind down.

General Petraeus’ much-anticipated report will be more of the same: partially-reached benchmarks that herald “progress”; vague promises of at least a partial withdrawal of the troops at some point in the future; an impassioned appeal for “just a little more patience and time”; and the assertion that the light can be seen at the end of the tunnel. General Westmoreland dragged out the Vietnam War in much the same manner.
U.S. imperialism has already been strategically defeated in Iraq, it is now a question of what they can salvage. Although they will eventually be forced to pull out the bulk of the combat troops, they will resist and delay a total withdrawal as long as possible, as they are compelled to defend their interests in the region, chiefly the Saudi oil fields and to combat Iran’s growing influence.

Even more alarming for the ruling class is the danger to the economy presented by the meltdown in the housing and mortgage market. The stock market has swung wildly up and down over the last few weeks, as investors alternate between extreme panic and irrational euphoria. The Federal Reserve has been forced to lower interest rates, which will only exacerbate already rising inflation. Despite this effort to loosen credit, demand for homes fell 12.2 percent to a six-year low in July. Home foreclosures rose 9 percent in July from June, a 93 percent increase from a year ago, as once white-hot housing markets now suffer the greatest number of loan failures.

According to Martin Feldstein, president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, “The multiplier effect of home price declines and declines in consumer spending could push the economy into recession.” Ironically, even “free marketer” President Bush has promised a government bail out to prevent the total collapse of the sector and its spread to the rest of the economy.

This is the picture confronting U.S. workers as we enter the 2008 electoral campaign. None of the main candidates are speaking seriously about universal health care and education, repealing anti-labor laws, immediately ending the war or creating jobs through massive investment in rebuilding the country’s infrastructure. Working people are being made to pay for the crimes and greed of the capitalist class. The end of even the illusion of an economic “boom” will mean an intensification of the class struggle. The only lasting solution is a fundamental transformation of society: socialism.
John Peterson

107 comments:

Farmer John said...

Sure, a man with advanced colon cancer resigns his position in the Bush White House and you try and play politics with it? That's just sad.

In the People's Republic of Maryland the roads are a congested mess. How do all our Democratic Governor's and State Legislator's excuse this sorry state of affairs? They simply label their infrastructure deficient budgets as "Smart Growth". Congestion forces development to move "somewhere else". The NIMBY's love it and the commuters sit in traffic spewing smog.

Farmer John said...

And please connect this non-sequitor " The only lasting solution is a fundamental transformation of society: socialism." to how the infrastructure problem... the Iraq war... or any other "problem" you mentioned would be "solved" through socialism.

beatroot said...

Yeah, here is the trembling hand of Ted Grant, as I feared. The obsession with the State…it reminds me of Militant in the 1980s in the UK – a group inside the Labour Party who had policies like ‘Nationalize all the banks etc’…..

It is the same type of politics that helped kill off socialist thinking and organizations in the UK and elsewhere.

Whether roads are built by private sector or state doesn’t actually matter. If it’s unionism you are worried about then fighting for labour rights is the same fight in or outside the state.

The State is no less exploitative than the private sector. The state is not an alternative to capitalism but very much part of it.

As far as the ‘ruling class being worried about the housing and stock markets..’ well, of course it is not just the ‘ruling class’ but everyone who has stocks or housing assets – which is many many millions of Americans. Don’t be so in a hurry to laugh at normal people losing out. Any gain for people materially should be welcomed…is just that – a gain.

Bush a free marketeer? Don’t think so. Capitalist economy and free markets are not mutually inclusive – in fact they never have been. No major capitalist economy has grown or maintained itself through free markets – check out your food market, comrade.

The end of even the illusion of an economic “boom” will mean an intensification of the class struggle.

Same old stuff. Intensification of class struggles come from ideological intervention – not the mechanical result of booms and busts (which the world capitalist economy is no more as subject to since 1989.)

But I don’t think the same old politics of Militant and Grantism – now discredited – are the going to revive the ‘class struggle’.

Time to learn from history, my friend.

As far as Iraq is concerned – now that the Iraq project has failed, watch how they push Darfur more and more to try and justify another military intervention.

Mad Zionist said...

Chernoble and the Yugo are perfect examples of how well the collectivist butter trumps the capitalist gun. If only we stamped out profit, banned privatization and trusted the government to guarantee all people lived happily ever after. Just imagine all the people, starving and killing for some bread... you-hoo-wooo-woo-wooooohh.

Kumbaya.

Graeme said...

creating jobs through massive investment in rebuilding the country’s infrastructure

ever the pessimist, I am weary of such projects. Actually, I think they are a racket. Well connected companies get rich moving around traffic cones and being a pain in the ass to commuters.

Having said that, I would rather the government spend money on that than most of the shit they do. I don't think the government is anything other than a temporary ally. Right now, it is the only thing that can somewhat keep multinationals in check, but I believe the government is almost always the problem. Capitalism can't exist without the state. Take away the state, take away capitalism.

you have got to love this economy. The prices of homes will decline, but not enough for many full time workers to buy one. The for-profit system is unbelievably inefficient.

Renegade Eye said...

A point of clarification. This was initially written as an editorial.

Farmer: Replace Tony Snow with Dan Bartlett.

I don't talk about socialism in the abstract. I emphacize program. Some demands will transform the structure of a society. Demands as US out of Iraq, free healthcare for all etc.

Beatroot: Nobody believes nationalization is an end. It makes transition to a socialist society easier. Lenin was fond of the American postal system.

Bush thinks of himself as a free marketer. He actually is whatever his corporate bosses tell him.

Ted Grant was the only person on the left, who said the Malvinas don't belong to Argentina.

The Darfur comment is interesting. I could at this point only imagine a proxy war. I'm in the minority, on the Iraq issue. I don't believe the US will make any fundamental change in Iraq policy. Both parties have the same strategy, except Dems are more willing to talk to Syria and Iran.

Mad Zionist: You are talking about Stalinism, not socialism.

Graeme: I don't think the issue is the concept of a state, rather who controls it. From the experience of anti-colonialism; we know that the state must be smashed and rebuilt, rather than merely occupied.

The Pagan Temple said...

Speaking from a purely technical standpoint, the Iraqi War is not interfering with funding of infrastructure. The Iraqi War is being fought on credit, on money borrowed from China mostly. Money for infrastructure is funded through allotments for transportation.

The problem is the money is not being allocated or spent properly. There's a lot of corruption and money disappearing into contractors pockets who are doing shoddy work, and the people responsible are getting kickbacks for letting it happen. Nothing new, same old story.

Isn't the bridge in Minneapolis part of a federal road? If so, the federal government has an obligation to fund it adequately, and insure that it is maintained properly. The Iraqi War is irrelevant to it.

The problem with the Iraqi War is it is, as I said, being fought on credit. It is the first credit card war, just like this whole fucking economy is a credit card economy. The housing market is only the first thing to faw down go bwoom. The best is yet to come.

Good enough. It takes a retarded motherfucker to take out a loan at floating interest to pay 200,000 dollars for a house that was worth fifty thousand ten years ago, and think in a few years it will be worth two million dollars. What the fuck do they think, that if they wait long enough it will eventually be worth fifty billion dollars?

In the meantime, the rip-off artists who have been instigating this shit cry for bail-outs. Yeah, bail out the hedge funds, I want to make some money on a betting pool, on how long it will take them to sucker the next group of morons to throw their life savings away on the next scam-i.e., market bubble.

Twenty percent of them will be the same morons that fell for this one, which probably at least twenty percent of the ones that fell for this one fell for the nineties tech bubble too.

Want proof mankind ain't nothing but a fucking ape after all? Well, here's your proof.

I say no more fucking roads, keep the ones they got in good shape, and start building mass transit, and in the meantime mandate increases in fuel efficiency standards for autos. That right there would take care of so many problems it boggles the mind as to why it can't get done.

Ration gas if necessary, who gives a fuck? You should see the stupid motherfuckers driving up and down the roads here in my little town, going from one end of town to another, turning around, going to the other end, turning around, cruising, and all the other horseshit. Yet, people bitch and moan about the price of gasoline.

You know all the fuck they're doing is cruising to try to pick up a piece of ass. What the fuck? How in the hell is that vital? If that's so important, stick your dick out the window and wave at people, and one of two things will happen-someone will come to your house to give you a piece of ass, or you'll get hauled off to jail where sex is free.

In the meantime, no, it don't have to change to a purely socialist system, necessarily, it just needs to change to a common fucking sense system, which most people these days don't seem to have.

beatroot said...

Ted Grant was the only person on the left, who said the Malvinas don't belong to Argentina.

factually not true. There were loads of them....most of the left of the Labour Party thought that. But they were not for bombing Argintinians to get them back for the British Empire...they thought they could Sanction them back to the British Empire...

Nobody believes nationalization is an end. It makes transition to a socialist society easier. Lenin was fond of the American postal system.

Factually not true and very naueve.

and Darfur. Look: the Iraq thing has blown up in their faces. And not just the neocons...liberal interventionists too. So to try and get some support back for the international adventures they need something like Darfur (although why not Congo and other places is a bit of a mystery.

And Darfur is a lot safer to do it than in Iran!

Farmer John said...

Demands as US out of Iraq...will transform the structure of a society Indeed it will. It will get us all killed, especially since before they demanded us out of Iraq, they demanded us into Iraq.

Machiavelli was extremely wary of democracies. The rich have everything to lose in needlessing attacking their neighbors. The poor, on the other hand, have little to lose. Look at Hamas.

sonia said...

The only lasting solution is a fundamental transformation of society: socialism.

In other words, we should cure bronchitis by infecting the patient with the ebola virus...

It will certainly be a lasting solution, all right. 'The bronchitis was cured, the operation was successful, but the patient died'.

Socialism or death ?

No, socialism IS death.

Cla said...

Sonia,

Oh Sonia, my silly little rich girl. You would say that wouldn't you? Go and read some real books. Really, your old enough to know better.

Terry said...

Socialism is death.

Silly statement. What about Sweden and Ireland? Do you even know where they are on a map?

There are more examples but we'll keep it short and sweet. We don't want to descend into Beamishisms.

Could you please explain your statement in reference to Sweden and Ireland, both successful Socialist democracies.

Terry said...

Quiet as a mouse...

Terry said...

Look...

...A tumble weed rolls across the screen. In the distance, we see Princess Beamish the Weasel, clad in his best latex, with his little cock flapping in the wind and his arse perched on the tip of a scud missile. He raises his right arm in salute whilst he foams at the mouth over an image of Tom Cruise...

...Don't look

Daniel said...

Join the World Utopian Movement and we'll turn this earth on its head (not easy to turn a globe on its head I reckon).

Capitalism and Religion are both stuffing up our world. We need a whole new direction. It may involve some socialist ideas, some deflation of egos, some sharing, some re-thinking.

If we don't act soon we won't have to worry because the world will be Kaput! Cheers.

Mad Zionist said...

Let's join the "I'm So Stupid My Head Hurts To Think" movement while we're at it.

Moron.

That may have been the most retarded comment I've ever read.

Liberal White Boy said...

Careful MZ. I like Daniel. Don't make me have to get out a can of that liberal white boy whoop ass on you. Hey, did you see Sarah last night. I think we need to work on that hair doo. When Sarah loses LWB, the Zionists are in serious trouble.

sonia said...

Terry,

What about Sweden and Ireland?

What about them ? They are (and have always been) capitalist countries, with private property.

If Sweden and Ireland are socialist in your book, then I am a socialist too. No problem.

But I don't think John Peterson had Ireland in mind when he was talking about 'fundamental transformation of society: socialism'...

Terry said...

Why Mad Zionist? Are you already a member of the "I'm So Stupid My Head Hurts To Think"? Bet you're the founding member. You must be, being a Zionist and all.

Say what you like Daniel. Ignore these racist pricks.

Terry said...

That's not in my book Sonia, it's in theirs.

I suspect you're getting Socialism mixed up with Communism and Marxism.

Socialism is the middle ground. It's about not about taking private property, it's about social emancipation. Health, education etc.

So, you must be a Socialist now. Welcome to the club.

Renegade Eye said...

John Peterson is not talking about Ireland. He is a revolutionary socialist.

MZ: Why so much wrath against someone who wants to better the world.

Utopian vision is very subversive. What you are for means more than what you are against. There is always protest, not always vision.

LWB: Who is Sarah?

beatroot said...

Terry...can you explain to me how Ireland is a socialist country? I thinkit will come as a bit of a shock to the Irish to realise that they been living in a socialist republic all these years....

..and you have the cheek to lecture Sonia about being dumb!!!!!!!

jams o donnell said...

Ireland socialist? Dream on! The Republic of Ireland may have made massive improvements to its social infrastructure but it was built on the back of a massive boom in the Irish economy over the last 15-20 year. The boom was was based on solid capitalist principles!

Politically Ireland has been conservative. The two main parites, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are bothcentre right. The Progressive Democrats (who have been junior partner is recent administrations) are free market old-school liberals.

Fine Gael has usually governed in coalition with the Irish Labour Party but that does not make a socialist goivernment, not even when the Democratic Left* were also in coalition with Fine Gael and Labour in the 90s.

Democrapic Left was formerly known as the Workers Party and was the political wing of the Official IRA,which gave up the "armed struggle" in the 1970s.

Terry said...

Yeh Beatroot:

Now I'll have the cheek to call you dumb as fuck as well. Another condescending arsewipe. What do you think Socialism is?

SOCIALISM IS NOT COMMUNISM!

Britain was once a socialist country. New Labour is allegedly a socialist party.

Socialism does not mean anti-capitalism. Come on spoons, give yourselves a polish.

'The boom was was based on solid capitalist principles!'
I agree: they've done well.

Based on the social reforms, the health, welfare and education system, then Eire is a Socialist country.

Just like old Labour in Britain, Fianna Fáil was a left-wing party, but has become more populist and central in the recent years.

The conservatism is not political but more down to the grip of the Roman Catholic church and the people's traditional values.

Eire is a socialist democracy. Simple. So is Sweden.

Can one of you spoons explain to me what warped definition of socialism you all agree upon?

Terry said...

'The FBI would not have jurisdiction in the Qana incident. International law does.'

I agree which is I why I cited the UN's ambiguous definition. As I also said: there is no standard definition for the word terrorism. Which definition do you think is suitable?

'Hizbollah, Hamas, and Fatah intermingle their forces amongst civilians'
Could you please provide evidence to support this claim?

'Israel does not intentionally target civilians.'
But, Israel does! Come on!

'no clear violation of international law'
Can you provide evidence? It's a bit weak to just refuse. The citation you provided is not acceptable. It's a hackneyed right-wing site. Please use something neutral.

We are getting somewhere here Mr Beamish. I just can't accept your opinion because you "say so". Do you get my point?

Terry said...

THAT WAS MEANT FOR THE OTHER POST!

SWITCH TO WORDPRESS REN. THIS COMMENT SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE!

BUT YES - NOW I'M THE SPOON. HAHAHA.

beatroot said...

Terry...stop the teenage screaming and read intelligent, leftist Irish guy like Jam's comments above....and stop calling people who know a lot more what they are talking about 'dumb'...

Terry said...

Mr Beatroot,

You started the shit slinging by calling me dumb in defence of Sonia's terse comment (socialism=death???). I'm sure Sonia can defend herself or at least stop making such extreme claims. It's like someone popping their head though your front window, shouting obscenities, then running away.

I will treat you as you treat me. Be polite and I will be polite in return. My shackles are up after dealing with the Weasel. I apologise if I come across as an arsehole. Here's an olive branch. Let's have a discussion and learn something from one another.

Jams,

Hiya matey. I don't mean to offend you. I'm from an Irish family (Corcaigh! The Rebel county!) too, although I can't state my surname for obvious privacy reasons. So obviously I get my information fed down the grapevine. By all accounts I've been led to believe that Eire is a Socialist country, although not in the archaic Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist mode, quite obviously capitalist as well, but I base socialism on the extent of social welfare and social mobility. Eire has excellent education, health and welfare for all and it is by this standard that I call it Socialist, much the same way as I call Sweden Socialist. Perhaps I have misstated? Or is Socialist Democracy more appropriate?

You wrote: 'The two main parites, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are both centre right.'

I hate to quote Wikipedia but at least it's a source that we can all access and generally agree upon.

Fianna Fail:
'From its establishment in the early twentieth century, the party moved from being a radical, centre-left party, to becoming the dominant established, broadly centrist party, its influence dominating government and Irish political life from the 1930s onwards.'

Available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fianna_F%C3%A1il

Fine Gael:
'Today, Fine Gael describes itself as a party of the progressive centre though, with core values focussed on fiscal rectitude, individual rights and responsibilities and free enterprise. They are strongly pro-EU integration and opposed to violent Irish republicanism. Fine Gael is the only member-party of the European People's Party (EPP) in Ireland. Its MEPs sit in the EPP-ED Group.'

Available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Gael

According to these definitions neither party is right-wing although both have moved towards centrist positions in recent years. This trend has occurred throughout Europe, such as the radical shift in the British Labour party.

Eire is built upon socialist values for sure. It was essential to get through the 'dark times'. If this is changing then I stand corrected. I know that New Labour has moved quite a distance away from the left under the Blair Regime and now we have Brown saying he admires Thatcher!!! Socialist in nothing but the name. Is it the same case with Eire these days?

Perhaps though, the main problem is that we all seem to have different definitions of Socialism?

What say you?

Larry Gambone said...

Terry is confusing Social Democracy with socialism, Sonia is confusing socialism with Stalinism.

Social democracy is reform that keeps capitalism intact. Stalinism is a ntionalized economy run by a dictatorial one party state. Socialism is workers self-management.

Farmer John said...

Larry,

Pardon my ignorance, but if socialism is worker self-management, what function does a union serve?

Terry said...

Hillbilly John the Pseudoamerican:

Unions are part of the labour movement, a facet of Socialism.


Larry:

You are correct. I've used the term incorrectly for sure, as I suspected.

We call ourselves New Socialists, or 21st Century Socialists, (capitalised like Orwell) and we believe in Social Democracy, which you quite rightly defined. I think Stalinism was abhorrent as I keep trying to explain to Sonia!

I also think Capitalism is an economic system, not a political or ideological position, as some seem to believe.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Farmer John said...

What do they need unions for, then? Is union management any smarter than capitalist management?

Larry Gambone said...

One thing Farmer John, unions in a self-managed society would not be the bureaucratic, or worse, gangster-controlled outfits that you have seen in the US and Canada. In order for self-management to exist, unions would themselves have to become democratic ie, managed by the workers themselves. Such unions already exist in Europe - see the Spanish CGT or Swedish SAC. - In a self-managed society, these self-managed unions could then assume the management of industry. This is what happened in Spain in 1936 - see Orwell.

Larry Gambone said...

And in industries that are not unionized, mass assemblies of the work force could then elect recallable delegates who would then assume the direction of the work place. This is what has happened in a lot of the Argentine self-managed work places that Maria Trigona has written about so well.

Larry Gambone said...

Tery, just to confuse matters even more, left-wing social democrats do believe in a transition to socialism, just that it occurs gradually and through reform. So if you see yourselves as left-wing Soc Dems, perhaps you are justified in seeing yourself as a socialist. But run-of-the mill Soc Dems have given up on transforming the system, only ameliorating its most barbarous aspects.

Naj said...

Hi Renegade Eye

Thanks for dropping by my blog. You have an interesting place here as well. I hope to come back and visit when I am less swamped.

Cheers
Neoresistance: Iran facts

Naj said...

LOL, I had never seen "right-winger" bloggers, I was reading through their comments ... what an "un"lightened bunch :)

Farmer John said...

So who fires the slackers in your self-managed paradise?

Aaron A. said...

The Slackers?
There'd be no CEO's.

nanc said...

okay then, aaron - who's in charge of personnel? can they be trusted to hire the RIGHT people for the job? if they're all wrong for the job, do they still get their daily ration? i want to make sure EVERYBODY'S treated fairly...just me thinking out loud...again...i do that...by gawd if i'm going to put in a daze work everybody else had better be!

i've been thinking out loud alot lately...

nanc said...

p.s. will the sheets be 300 count? no percale for me!

laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

what the hell! 300 count for everybody!

nanc said...

p.p.s. - an afterthought - when we're dividing our wealth, do i get to keep the things nobody else wants?

Larry Gambone said...

"So who fires the slackers in your self-managed paradise?"

Farmer, obviously you have no knowledge or experience of cooperatives or collectives, if you ask a question like that. Why do you always imply that we are mindless idiots? Figure it out for your self. Hint - I have helped to fire more than a dozen people over course of 40 years off and on experience with coops.

Larry Gambone said...

Nanc,Wipe the sneer off your face when you write about self-management. Why assume that there will not be some criteria for people joining a collective as well as some level of work discipline? Around the world there are hundreds of thousands of people who belong to coopertive enterprizes with a great deal of self-management. How do you think they manage to function and exist? Some of these have been around for 50-60 years. And this is within the context of capitalism, and extremely hostile environment for workplace democracy to put it mildly.

Renegade Eye said...

Welcome Naj.

Larry: In Venezuela there are several coops, of all shapes and sizes. Some are so large, the coop members outsource for actual labor.

Beatroot: and Darfur. Look: the Iraq thing has blown up in their faces. And not just the neocons...liberal interventionists too. So to try and get some support back for the international adventures they need something like Darfur (although why not Congo and other places is a bit of a mystery.

And Darfur is a lot safer to do it than in Iran!


To invade Darfur, would put US directly against China, who holds the US debt.

Sometimes you talk about interventions as if they were existential, to give meaning to life after the Cold War.

Tina said...

Hmm... I'm a liberal Dem who supports universal healthcare, universal education at every level and I am 100% pro-union b/c I believe all of the above are what any responsible nation does to better their country.
Renegade, does that mean that I am more socialist than I thought?
If so, I won't lose a bit of sleep over it.
No matter how many people try to make me feel bad about it.
Living in a civil nation has to come with a pricetag, and those 3 seem like perfectly good prices to pay for the society we hope to enjoy.

Graeme said...

I think it is crucial to get rid of these myths that self-managed workplaces would be too timid to fire people and wouldn't have any standards on who they hire.

Where did this come from? If anything, you have more incentive to work harder in a self-managed environment. Not just because you personally benefit, but also because if you don't bust your ass, your co-workers simply won't put up with it.

Farmer John said...

...your co-workers simply won't put up with it.

Who's gonna wake them up?

Farmer John said...

btw - I'm glad my boss doesn't have MPD. But if you think working for such a boss is a good idea, then more power to you. Just don't drag me into your own personal hell.

sonia said...

Larry,

Around the world there are hundreds of thousands of people who belong to coopertive enterprizes with a great deal of self-management. How do you think they manage to function and exist? Some of these have been around for 50-60 years.

And what did they accomplish ? How many software program did they invent ? How many new computer chips they created ?

Coops might be good at producing potato chips, but when it comes to innovation, you need ruthless capitalists like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs to lead the way...

Terry said...

LARRY:

Thanks very much for clarifying everything. I do believe in the gradual transition towards 'Grand' Socialism but it would only work as an international movement. What would we do with all the FJ's (bad apples) in this world??? At least I can keep my Socialist tag! Phew! lol.

REN:

To invade Darfur, would put US directly against China, who holds the US debt.

Do you have any more on this. I want to look into it but haven't come across any reputable info. Cheers matey!

FJ:

You're a religious fundamentalist. No debate is possible.

Terry said...

Bill Gates???? He didn't invent anything, he marketed other people's ideas.

He's a thief and a conman! Go and do some research!!! Windows is shite.

I give you LINUX!!! UBUNTU!!! FIREFOX!!! BIT-TORRENT!!! FREEWARE!!! CO OPERATIVES!!! COMMUNITIES OF PRACTICE!!!

Your shoe is in your mouth again.

nanc said...

oh, i wasn't sneering, larry - it was more like a look of pure contempt for these hairbrained ideas - with all due respect.

my questions are valid and you have no clear way to answer me.

nanc said...

terry - and did he not make those people wealthy beyond belief?

btw - bill gates is a globalist - go check out the bill and melinda gates foundation - trust me, he desires that this class be under his feet. not to mention his backing of arab schools in nyc!

Terry said...

REN, CAN YOU DELETE THE ABOVE PLZ. WRONG POST AGAIN!!!

THE COMMENT FUNCTION HERE IS DRIVING ME MAD!!! I HAVE TO CLEAR MY BROWSER CACHE AND RELOAD YOUR SITE TO SWITCH BETWEEN POSTS.

Terry said...

Nanc:

Yes, but he's the one who deserved nothing. What did he contribute to the original GUI project?

He stole his ideas like the guy who set up Facebook. He's a Weasel (like Princess Beamish). Unscrupulous.

Capitalism doesn't generate innovation, that generally occurs thanks to the inquisitive nature of the human condition. Capitalism merely makes such innovation profitable.

Computer technology was inevitable, a natural progression. It's not the product of good old capitalism. It's the product of human evolution.

Seriously, do some research. Try George Landow's Hypertext 2.0. I think there's an accompanying website somewhere.

Larry Gambone said...

Nanc says "my questions are valid and you have no clear way to answer me."

Nothing is clearer than the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people doing what you consider impossible. And if you had done the slightest research - so easily available now with the Internet, you would know this evidence, yet, instead, you prefer to spout your ignorance in arrogance.
I will leave you with one last thought. Self-management is common sense, working for a boss is insane.

nanc said...

for whom do you work, larry?

self-employed?

do you have employees under you?

who will buy YOUR goods if you are a manufacturer of one? do not the people who purchase your goods have equal standing with ANY employees you may have?

who runs the show, larry?

WHO RUNS THE SHOW???

nanc said...

p.s. - hundreds of thousands are just numbers - not even comparable to millions upon millions of people who NEED their employment to keep their lifestyles. did it ever occur to you that people like their positions in life?

300 COUNT SHEETS FOR EVERYBODY!

Farmer John said...

...innovation, that generally occurs thanks to the inquisitive nature of the human condition. Capitalism merely makes such innovation profitable.

OMG, I can't stop laughing....! Thanks, guys. You made my day!

Terry, are you sure you're still on the right post? LOL!

Leftwing Criminologist said...

"Yeah, here is the trembling hand of Ted Grant, as I feared. The obsession with the State…it reminds me of Militant in the 1980s in the UK – a group inside the Labour Party who had policies like ‘Nationalize all the banks etc’…..

It is the same type of politics that helped kill off socialist thinking and organizations in the UK and elsewhere."

There are several things I find wrong with these comments and rest of beatroots post (it's at the beginning of this thread).

First, it's the idea that the the ideas of militant are discredited. Militant inflicted the two biggest defeats Thatcher suffered, firstly over Liverpool City Council and secondly the Poll Tax. This was huge in the UK.

Second is that this type of politics did not kill off socialist thought in the UK. That 'privilege' goes to Kinnock, Smith and Blair (we should now add Brown) and their clique who systematically drove socialist ideas pretty much out from labour through explusions, bureaucratic manouveres and now just plain ignoring anyone who doesn't agree with them

Furthermore, when you say ‘Nationalize all the banks etc’….. you forget the part about it being under democratic workers control, which does make it different from private control. Indeed state control as it is now does imply some sort of non-private control (although not the same as it being under the control of workers)

Not that Ted Grant was perfect, far from it, but he did make huge contributions to socialist and marxist thinking. I think you, beatroot, is the one that should learn from history.

Farmer John said...

btw - Whoever thinks profit (or capital gain)is a dirty word really needs to read (spurious) Plato's "Hipparchus" (aka - The Profiteer). Transactions in which nobody profits are never made.

And thanks for proving sonia's point, Terry. Capitalism is merely what makes innovation good.

In the words of Hipparchus, "deceive not a friend."

Farmer John said...

btw - nanc, I'm sure they wonderful job in the hiring, firing, and electing managers department... at least... if Venezuela is a relevant example (h/t- junglemom)...LOL!

Larry Gambone said...

Nanc, look it up yourself if you are so darned interested. I am not doing your homework for you. Google, "worker-coops", "workers' self-management", "Mondragon" , "Emilia Romagna cooperatives" - to start. Maybe if I thought you were actually curious and not just here to insult people, I might spend my time explaining how coops and collectives work, but I could write reems about it and all you would do is sneer anyway. I know you reactionaries, reason and evidence do not count. All that matters are your prejudices. Enough said on this issue.

Renegade Eye said...

Tomorrow I'm meeting with officials from the Venezuelan embassy and a labor minister, coming to MN, to meet labor leaders here. They are going to explain the 30 hour work week to union leaders here.

I'll see what they say about coops.

Terry said...

Larry:

Well done! Thank you! Bow, bow, clap, clap! They never, ever, ever bring any evidence to the table. I'm gald you noticed that too!

Hillbilly John the Pseudoamerican:

If Hipparchus said it, it must be right! lol. There's a word for people who quote archaic texts to inflate their position? It's not wanker, although that comes to mind, it's something else...

You're a nut case though! Say what you will. From a man who discusses the difference between angels, I'll believe nothing.

Renegade:
Good luck mate. How did you wrangle a meeting like that? I want to come!

Terry said...

EXCUSE ME RIGHT-WING CAPITALISTAS BUT WE'RE ALWAYS JUSTIFYING OUR BELIEFS: CAN YOU JUSTIFY THE FOLLOWING CRIMES OF CAPITALISM?

Colonialism,
the 14 hour day,
class privilege,
the 7 day working week,
children in coalmines,
the opium wars,
the massacre of the Paris Commune,
slavery,
the Spanish-American War,
the Boer War,
starvation,
apartheid,
anti-union laws,
the First World War,
Flanders,
trench warfare,
mustard gas,
aerial bombing,
the Soviet Intervention,
the Armenian Genocide,
chemical weapons,
fascism,
the Great Depression,
hunger marches,
Nazism,
the Spanish Civil War,
militarism,
Asbestosis,
radiation death,
the Massacre of Nanking,
the Second World War,
Belsen,
Dresden,
Hiroshima,
Racism,
The Mafia,
nuclear weapons,
the Korean War,
DDT,
McCarthyism,
production lines,
blacklists,
Thalidomide,
the rape of the Third World,
poverty,
the arms race,
plastic surgery,
the electric chair,
environmental degradation,
the Vietnam War,
the military suppression of Greece,
India, Malaya,
Indonesia,
Chile,
El Salvador,
Nicaragua,
Panama and Turkey,
the Gulf War,
trade in human body parts,
malnutrition,
Exxon Valdez,
deforestation,
organized crime,
the Heroin and Cocain trade, tuberculosis,
the destruction of the Ozone Layer,
cancer,
exploitation of labour and the deaths of 50,000,000 Communists and trade unionists in this century alone.

??????????

nanc said...

just answer my questions to you, larry. please - enlighten me.

nanc said...

p.s. - terry - your drama queen slip is showing...

nanc said...

terry - the smell you emit is that which you're stepping in - are you sure you wouldn't like taking another stab at it?

Terry said...

Oh dear! Someone's got their knickers in a twist again. You people are so funny. You're all the same, like little clone warriors babbling away. Never any evidence, never any facts. Did you come off a production line yourself?

Not being very 'Christian' either are you? What would Jesus say? Hahaha.

That's the problem. Your entire world view is built upon an ideology without substantial evidence and so you don't seem to comprehend or understand the need for meaningful evidence. Just say it and it's true?!

Now, be a good little boy and go worship your pagan war god.

Ah, my morning star...

Terry said...

ps. Why do we always have to answer your questions, yet you can never answer ours?

Arrogance?

beatroot said...

Left wing crim
First, it's the idea that the the ideas of militant are discredited. Militant inflicted the two biggest defeats Thatcher suffered, firstly over Liverpool City Council and secondly the Poll Tax. This was huge in the UK.

I was a very active member of the poll tax unions (membership secretary of Lewisham) and Militant were not THE union.

As for Liverpool…Derek Hatton, what a prick!
But Militant are discreditied because they have disappeared as a force as has the rest of the left within and outside the Labour Party. That does seem to suggest that they have been discredited as they politics FAILED in practice.

And if the type of lettwing politics your talking about did actually have some relevance to people’s lives then it would be able to stand on its own and not simply suck parasitically on the Labour Party. Fact is as soon as Militant left the labour Party it ceased to have any relevance at all.

Democratic workers control? We never had that in Britain, guy….all we had was a left obsessed with the state.

Cla said...

Wow! Same old shit here, I see.

These right wing conservatives have not got a clue. No evidence, no facts, same old story.

Larry,

Great description of Socialism. Your description is exactly what I class as socialism, at this time. Social Democracy, I think you called it. Good observation.

Terry,

Same old story here too. Yawn....I'm bored........

Renegade,

I see why many of these wankers have tried spamming you time and again. They couldn't beat an egg with their arguments. It's embarrassing most of the time.

I'm going to leave you a message at the usual place, Ren. It could effect you, please read it.

Nanc,

Wow! You're such a prick.

You should go suck some horse with Farmer John. Or just go fuck Mr Beamish, I'm sure he'd like that. Pull his hair a bit, I bet he loves it.

Prick!

Té la mà Maria - Reus said...

All the moments are good to come to greet and to wish you to happen a very good day yourself
Your friends of Reus Catalunya Spain

RickB said...

Another survey finds Iraq death toll is over 1 million-
Over 1 Million Killed In Iraq Further Confirmation

Terry said...

Yeh, it's well over a million. But, they "don't do body counts"! Bastards!

Beatroot:

Seriously, no offence, what do you think of this:

http://www.cnwp.org.uk/index.htm

Renegade Eye said...

Try to go back to being political. John gave us much to talk about.

John and I spent the day at various events with the ambassador from Venezuela, and other representatives of the embassy. The ambassador's reception was catered by Vicyor's 1959 Restaraunt, not unfamiliar to readers of this blog.

I found out coops are about 14% of the Venezuelan economy. Some are so large, that coop members outsource labor. Unions in Venezuela, are interested in unionizing coop workers.

Tina: Your instincts are like a socialist. The party you support, is in terms of goals, similar to the GOP. They want your vote and money, more than they want you.

RickB: The Iraq War was supposed to be a cakewalk.

Beatroot: In the US there is no labor party. The Democratic Party is a bourgeoise party, that is unreformable. The Green Party is muddled, without a program.

I would join the Labor Party in the UK, as I would the NDP in Canada, Obrador's party in Mexico, PSUV in Venezuela or the Labor Party in Israel. They would provide a base for interracting with people, and actually making changes. I wish I had a vehicle, to do electoral work in the US.

To get a labor party in the US, it would have to be a revolutionary situation.

Is redbaiting common in the UK Labor Party?

Terry: Your crimes of capitalism remark, is one of the great moments in this blog. How much time did it take to make that list?

Colonialism,
the 14 hour day,
class privilege,
the 7 day working week,
children in coalmines,
the opium wars,
the massacre of the Paris Commune,
slavery,
the Spanish-American War,
the Boer War,
starvation,
apartheid,
anti-union laws,
the First World War,
Flanders,
trench warfare,
mustard gas,
aerial bombing,
the Soviet Intervention,
the Armenian Genocide,
chemical weapons,
fascism,
the Great Depression,
hunger marches,
Nazism,
the Spanish Civil War,
militarism,
Asbestosis,
radiation death,
the Massacre of Nanking,
the Second World War,
Belsen,
Dresden,
Hiroshima,
Racism,
The Mafia,
nuclear weapons,
the Korean War,
DDT,
McCarthyism,
production lines,
blacklists,
Thalidomide,
the rape of the Third World,
poverty,
the arms race,
plastic surgery,
the electric chair,
environmental degradation,
the Vietnam War,
the military suppression of Greece,
India, Malaya,
Indonesia,
Chile,
El Salvador,
Nicaragua,
Panama and Turkey,
the Gulf War,
trade in human body parts,
malnutrition,
Exxon Valdez,
deforestation,
organized crime,
the Heroin and Cocain trade, tuberculosis,
the destruction of the Ozone Layer,
cancer,
exploitation of labour and the deaths of 50,000,000 Communists and trade unionists in this century alone.

I had to reprint it.

beatroot said...

I wish them all the luck, Terry. The Labour Party was started up over 100 yrs ago by the trade unions to represent them in parliament. When Labour went into New Labour that was the end of it as a party of labour. But they are still the biggest financial contributors to it…

Problem is the labour movement doesn’t really exist in UK anymore. Trade Unions a more like service providers for a dwindling membership. They have never got over the final defeat mid eighties (miners strike) of the labour movement. That was it, finished. The Poll Tax Unions were the far lefts last hurrah and a chance to get our own back outside of the trade unions and the work place. It worked in that it contributed to the fall of Thatcher…but in the long run it was just a great time to be involved in that kind of protest. But substancially it meant little and was at the start (1990) of a different phase that we are still in and there is no going back.

So a new party campaigning on trade union interests will not get much support as there are not many trade unionists left.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Holy shit. It's stalkerville in here.

Cla said...

"Problem is the labour movement doesn’t really exist in UK anymore."

That is very true. Gordon Brown has recently had Thatcher back at No.10.
Seriously, Margret Thatcher. That says it all, really.

beatroot said...

Maggie Thatcher, last time I saw her, was seriously zombie-fied...resembled Ronnie Reagan in his latter years. God know what they talked about....she has apprently no short term memory and just keeps repeating what she said five minutes ago.

It will probably happen to all of us one day.

Maggie Thatcher, last time I saw her, was seriously zombie-fied...resembled Ronnie Reagan in his latter years....


....Oh dear.

Cla said...

Gordon Brown idolizes Thatcher. He's using conservative campaigners too.

Thatcher ruined the UK. Now it's time for round 2. I dread to think what Brown's going to do next. The north/south divide is bad enough as it is. It's like being in two different countries. That's what you get from conservatives. Keep the elite rich and fuck everyone else. Who cares?

That's the Thatcher way!

Terry said...

Ren:

I don't deserve credit for that list. A member of the Australian Communist Party posted it a while ago. Can't remember where! He said he was sick of justifying his beliefs to capitalists. I just added a few. We should co-write the Black Book of Capitalism and expand on each of those points. lol.

The coops in Venezuela are very interesting. I saw a dutch documentary that visited several of these facilities and it is a fantastic initiative. The people were so proud to be working and contributing to their communities. I'll find it again and post it on my site.

Viva Chavez!

Beatroot:

lol. Good one! Ergh, what did you say again... lol

Thanks for the response. I understand what you mean about the TUs. British politics is in such a mess! New Labour is a disgrace but there's no real alternative. I think I'll vote by not voting next time round, which is a real failure for democracy.

Princess Beamish:

How's the seraphim?

sonia said...

Ren,

I would join the Labor Party in the UK, as I would the NDP in Canada, Obrador's party in Mexico, PSUV in Venezuela or the Labor Party in Israel.

So you would help Bush fight his wars, then you would vote to keep the minority Conservative government in Canada in power, then you would try to start a revolution in Mexico, then you would slaughter all your political opponents who refused to join your party and finally you would bomb Lebanon...

Hmmm... Actually, there is a common thread among all those parties (except the Mexican one) - they all support the strong against the weak.

Larry Gambone said...

One has to laugh when someone like Sonia claims that Ren supports the strong against the weak. As for your "facts" - the NDP does not support the Cons, not in the least. What they did was in my estimation a tactical error in an effort to replace the Liberal Party as party the center-left, by attacking the Libs more than the Cons. This was a mistake but it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered support for the most regressive, anti-people party in our history. (PS, I am not NDP - when I vote - I vote Green) As for accusing the PSUV of slaughering its opponants, man, what a grotesque, Goebbels like lie that is! As for Labour, UK and Isreal, you have to understand the Trotskyist entriest concept - something I do not agree with, I should add, but nonetheless, it is not the same as supporting the reactionary leadership of these parties but is done as a method of reaching Labour's broad mass of working class support in the hope of converting the party to socialism. Trotskyists have been trying this for generations without result, so it is not something I agree with, but it is a tactic and is not a form of regression to supporting the right-wing of these parties as you claim.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Terry,

I've not particpated in this thread at all. Take your loss in the Israel thread like a man and stop obsessing over me.

Terry said...

Your loss was very sad. Everyone can go to that thread and watch you squirm.

You made a useless comment so I responded, as I always will.

Dave Marlow said...

I like the focus of this post as opposed to other Iraq commentaries because you're asking the right questions. People are still hell-bent on proving that the war has harmed the Iraqi people. I view this point as stipulated.

Though Americans are not losing their lives in sectarian violence and pseudo-warlordism, they are taking a major economic beating which often gets overlooked in lieu of the worse tragedy. The observations in your post are important for socialists to make, because no one else seems concerned with bringing those matters to light.

Renegade Eye said...

Sonia: I would have one foot in the established party, the other in the streets. Unfortunately I'm based in the US, where there is no labor based party.

I have a question for you. Have you ever been politically active, involved with a cause? Are you an activist on any issues?

It's not about strong over weak. I hope it's tactical flexibility, combined with principle.

Dave Marlow: I was at an antiwar demonstration today, sponsored by a group close to ANSWER. The politics was vague. There are several antiwar coalitions, that refuse to have joint action. The good part was that the prowar demo was under 10 people.

I'm so warped, that when the prowar people chanted, I thought it was the antiwar group. They were chanting about Iraqi freedom.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Terry,

You referebced my screen name 5 times in this thread before I left a comment here. Seems quite seriously indicative of obsessive envy. You don't seem to be dealing with the ass-whoopin' you took in the Israel thread very well.

Have you considered taking up yoga?

Cla said...

Mr Beamish,

Have you considered suicide. LOL. I would, if I thought I was as stupid as you are.

Terry said...

Yawn Beamish... That's what the loser always says.

Go away and stop clogging up the thread.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Yes, Terry, let's get back to you tossing insults at people and grandstanding as a safety valve for all your pent up feelings of intellectual inadequacy. I'm pretty sure that's the reason Renegade Eye published a post on physical infrastructure spending in the United States.

Larry Gambone said...

I week after Ren's posting on infrastructure and not a one of our resident apologists for the corporate state have come up with a single rational argument to counter it. Says a lot about the state of reaction these days...

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Larry,

Other than personally avoiding the titty-twister contest of what budget cut is necessary to bolster domestic infrastructure spending (largely why I haven't commented on this post), I agree that more domestic infrastructure spending is needed.

I bet the budget of the Department of Health and Human Services could put every bridge up to spec and still have grip left over to fill potholes.

Terry said...

Okay Beamish, whatever you say. I'm so intellectually inadequate. Whatever will I do?

Now, go away.

Terry said...

Well said Larry. Even the fascist-apologist Mr Beamish (and his best friend Wikipedia) could only come up with a poor tit-for-tat solution.

Juggling capital and redirecting funds is never a solution, especially by pulling funding from the Department of Health and Human Services. The latter needs increasing if the U.S. is to meet the needs of its poorer citizens and match the provisions offered by , for example, Canada and the UK.

The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan has only seen the nations funding redirected into the coffers of the corporate elite, as PNAC originally proposed (using veiled terms) in 1997.

And isn't Halliburton in the process of moving its base of operations to Dubai, thus removing those vast war profits from the US economy and certainly further from the reach of the American people?

I dread to think what the future holds for the American people when so many outside interests are squeezing the country dry, accompanied and helped by their own administration and the oligarchs at the head of the corporate monopolies.

Poor America: robbed and raped whilst it slept.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Considering that analysts were worried that the longshoremen's strikes on the West Coast in 2002 would have put a $48 billion hit on the US economy in a matter of three weeks, and we're only shelling out around $2 billion a week in Iraq, I'd say we've got a pretty long time to dance before worrying about how to pay for stuff, at least as far as the Iraq War is concerned.

In rough figures, the revenue income to the US economy brought by the just the labor of West Coast longshoremen alone per week will finance the Iraq War for 8 weeks.

Clearly blaming infrastructure neglect on budget shortfalls and then by extension the budget shortfalls on the Iraq War is a chump's argument. We're $2 billion a week away from becoming the next Argentina?

Cla said...

Mr Beamish,

"we're only shelling out around $2 billion a week in Iraq". Wow, another amazingly stupid statement.

"I'd say we've got a pretty long time to dance before worrying about how to pay for stuff". Amazing, you did it again. Remarkably stupid.

"the revenue income to the US economy brought by the just the labor of West Coast longshoremen alone per week will finance the Iraq War for 8 weeks". You're relentless in your stupidity.

Think what could be done in your country with all that money.

You dumb shit!

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Cla,

Think what could be done in your country with all that money.

I feel similarly about the Marshall Plan.

Renegade Eye said...

Beamish: I never met anyone pro-capitalist, who disagreed with the Marshall Plan before.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

Ren,

Beamish: I never met anyone pro-capitalist, who disagreed with the Marshall Plan before.

Well, I wouldn't mind it being paid back (since it was a loan) at interest. It's not America's fault Europeans can't go 10 years without sparking a war amongst themselves.

Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...

European recipients of the Marshall Plan to redistribute America's wealth to the sub-civilized warmongers of Europe took in what was at the time (1949 1951) roughly 31% of America's GDP.

Adjusted for inflation to 2006 dollars, the Marshall Plan dropped some $104 billion in direct cash towards reconstruction in Western Europe. Britain, the largest recipient / biggest deadbeat of the bunch recieved $27 billion (2006 dollars) from the Marshall Plan.

This bulk amount given above from the Marshall Plan itself does NOT include the costs of maintaining a American military presence in Europe to deter Soviet invasion (quite noticibly while France uses its own military to pursue control of its "former" colonies to this day...), nor does it even approach the purchase amount of assistance given in raw materials, fuel, and foodstuffs to keep Europeans alive long enough to piss money at them.

The thing that really sticks in my craw is the criticism of the amount of money given to Israel by America that usually comes from Europeans. The amount of money given to Israel over the years is microscopic compared to the amount of money given to Europe WE WERE NEVER PAID BACK.

Cla said...

Mr Beamish,

Yet again, all I can say is WOW!. Your stupidity continues to amaze me.

"Europeans can't go 10 years without sparking a war amongst themselves".

America can't go 2 seconds without invading a weaker country. You're such a hypocrite. You have some nerve, you really do. The list of weaker countries invaded by the U.S, is enormous. Also, you could add attempted coop's to the list. In countries that are non of American concern. You all do like to butt in, don't you? Vietnam and Cuba spring to mind for 2 reasons.

1. No reason to invade.
2. Got your asses kicked.

Britain = "biggest deadbeat of the bunch".

What is the current exchange rate from Pound to Dollar?
We're at the top of the tree. How are we deadbeats when the Pound wipes the floor with the Dollar?!

You could be the most stupid man on the planet. I don't even think it was a close contest. You won easily!

Go away you pathetic, little man.

Cla said...

"The amount of money given to Israel over the years is microscopic compared to the amount of money given to Europe".

I think you really need to recalculate. I see mathematics is not your strong point either. May you should try writing fairy tales.

Anonymous said...

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