Thursday, October 01, 2009

Jonathan Cook: Gaza peace protester is prisoner in own home

Taken from here

Lawyers denounce Israeli police crackdown

(Nazareth) -- Nine months after he helped to organize protests against Israel's attack on Gaza, Samih Jabareen is a prisoner in his home in Jaffa, near Tel Aviv, an electronic bracelet around his ankle to alert the police should he step outside his front door.

The 40-year-old actor and theatre director is one of dozens of Arab political activists in Israel who have faced long-term detention during and since Israel's winter assault on Gaza in what human rights groups are calling political intimidation and repression of free speech by the Israeli police and courts.

A report published last week by Adalah, an Arab legal rights group in Israel, said 830 Israeli demonstrators, the overwhelming majority of them Arab citizens, were arrested for participating in mostly peaceful demonstrations during the 23 days of the Gaza operation.

According to the report, the police broke up protests using physical violence; most protesters were refused bail during legal proceedings, despite the minor charges; the courts treated children no differently from adults, in violation of international law; and Arab leaders were interrogated and threatened by the secret police in a bid to end their political activity.

This month's report by the UN inquiry into Gaza, led by Judge Richard Goldstone, dedicated a chapter to events inside Israel, concluding similarly that there was wide-scale repression of political activists, non-governmental organizations and journalists in Israel.

The goal, the committee said, was "to minimize public scrutiny of [Israel's] conduct both during its military operations in Gaza and the consequences that these operations have had for the residents of Gaza".

Abir Baker, a lawyer with Adalah, said the police and legal system had resorted to mass arrests and a declared policy of "zero tolerance" as the most effective way to suppress peaceful protests.

According to Adalah's statistics, a third of all those arrested were people under the age of 18, and, in a break with normal legal procedure, 80 per cent were refused bail for the entire period of legal proceedings. Detention is usually reserved for people considered a danger to the public. Most charges related to participation in a prohibited gathering, disturbing the peace or assaulting a police officer. Some children were charged with stone-throwing.

Ms Baker said it was telling that all the detainees in northern Israel, where most of Israel's 1.3 million Arab citizens live, were kept in detention throughout proceedings, while in Tel Aviv, where joint Arab-Jewish protests were held, all those arrested were quickly released.

She said: "The police used the power of arrest not to punish criminal behavior, but as a weapon to deter the Arab population from staging entirely lawful demonstrations. This is a tactic we have seen used before in Israel, particularly in the first and second intifadas."

She noted that there were echoes of events in October 2000, at the start of the second intifada, when Arab citizens held demonstrations in solidarity with Palestinians in the occupied territories. Thirteen unarmed Arab demonstrators were shot dead and hundreds were beaten and arrested.

A later state inquiry castigated the police for treating the Arab minority, a fifth of Israel's population, as an "enemy". Unlike in 2000, however, police commanders on this occasion did not resort to rubber bullets or live ammunition.

Mr Jabareen, a prominent political figure in Jaffa, said that during the Gaza assault he had been put under a three-day house arrest and faced a series of interrogations where he was warned he would be jailed.

Three weeks after the Gaza assault ended, at a small demonstration in northern Israel, he said the police set a "trap" for him. "When I arrived, the police commander clearly knew who I was. He immediately had seven officers surround me. I was soon on the ground and they were beating, hitting and kicking me."

Mr Jabareen was jailed for three weeks and has been under house arrest ever since.

Ms Baker said of his case: "The police commander accused him of assaulting him and yet they have produced no video footage, even though they filmed the entire demonstration, and no medical evidence that the commander was ever harmed."

Mr Jabareen said his treatment contrasted with that of the ultra-Orthodox in the Mea Shearim neighborhood of Jerusalem who have been clashing with police for months to prevent the opening of a car park on the Sabbath.988888

"They are shown on TV throwing punches at the police and hurling stones at them. A few arrests have been made, but despite the high levels of violence, they are almost always released the same or next day. How can I still be under house arrest for eight months? It is clear that different legal standards are being applied."

Ms Baker said the police had created new offences during the Gaza operation, such as "protests detrimental to public morale".

Adalah found that a new directive was issued to police commanders about how to handle the protests, though the police have refused to divulge its contents. Ms Baker said she would petition the attorney general for the information.

The Goldstone Committee noted widespread intimidation and humiliation of community leaders. Saleh Bakri, a public figure who participated in a silent candle-light vigil on January 1 in Haifa, was arrested and forced to stand motionless facing the Israeli flag for half an hour as police officers filmed him.

The committee also recorded that at least 20 Arab leaders were forced to attend illegal interrogations by the Shin Bet where they were asked about their political activities. Student activists were asked to collaborate with the authorities and threatened with arrest or harm to their studies if they refused.

Police demanded Amir Makhoul, the head of the Ittijah co-ordinating body for Arab organizations in Israel, attend an interrogation following a speech he gave on December 29 in Haifa. After he refused, he was forcibly escorted to a police station where he was interviewed for four hours.

"They told me I would be thrown in jail if I continued my political work and that they could arrange for me to be dumped in Gaza. Their main concern seemed to be that I was urging the younger generation to be more politically active," he said.

The Arab minority is staging a general strike on Thursday to protest the increasingly harsh climate and to mark the failure to prosecute any of the policemen responsible for the 13 deaths in 2000.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest books are "Israel and the Clash of Civilizations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East" (Pluto Press) and "Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair" (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net.

A version of this article originally appeared in The National (www.thenational.ae), published in Abu Dhabi
.

Marxist from Lebanon

124 comments:

Desert Mystery said...

"They told me I would be thrown in jail if I continued my political work and that they could arrange for me to be dumped in Gaza. Their main concern seemed to be that I was urging the younger generation to be more politically active," he said.

That pretty much sums it all. As Biden said it...Israel is a beacon of democracy in the middle east. With a democracy like this...who needs anything else.

Ducky's here said...

I'm not surprised that the Obama administration has found the Goldstone report "deeply flawed".

How deeply? As deep as necessary to deflect any criticism and to permit continued unchecked settlement construction.

The Pagan Temple said...

Why ever on earth would Isrealis not want to allow it's Arab citizens to lead protests? Why, I just can't for the life of me see why they would act in such a fashion.

Renegade Eye said...

Desert Mystery: The idea of Gaza as being punishment, is telling.

Ducky: Obama will have to get concessions from Israel, eventually because he needs Syria and Iran, to help him out of Iraq.

Pagan: The story is about Israeli citizens. Why is Israel immune from universal standards?

The Pagan Temple said...

What universal standards? There are no universal rights to protest that I am aware of. It might be nice if everybody allowed their citizens the right to free expression, including protesting, but we don't live in that kind of world. We live in the kind of world where Jews living in Arab nations had best keep to the shadows and not make waves, and where Arabs living in the one tiny sliver of Middle Eastern land that is a Jewish nation get along relatively good. Why should I get all misty-eyed and outraged that they are not allowed to engage in public rabble rousing?

This is not a neoconservative, Judaeo-Christian "I stand with Israel" sentiment on my part. I could give a fig less for any Middle Eastern faith, so I don't adhere to Biblical beliefs concerning Jews as a "chosen" people. But right is right and wrong is wrong.

I consider this just another backdoor attempt by outside factions to destabilize the security of a sovereign nation. The fact that they are using "Israeli citizens" as a facade in this blatant attempt at subversion doesn't impress me in the least.

FJ said...

Perhaps next time the protestor's will pick a more "opportune" time for protesting, and NOT try and di it in the middle of a military operation.

Your psuedostinian friends get an F for protest timing.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: The other kids are doing it argument, wouldn't pass muster with kids on the playground or other countries.

I consider this just another backdoor attempt by outside factions to destabilize the security of a sovereign nation. The fact that they are using "Israeli citizens" as a facade in this blatant attempt at subversion doesn't impress me in the least.

Nothing to do with other countries.

FJ: It is about the same democratic rights, that even Teabaggers want.

FJ said...

Tea Party supporters don't riot in the streets in the middle of military offensives. People who would do that deserve to be shot.

The Pagan Temple said...

Fair enough, Ren. So let's make the other kids behave, if we're going to make just some of them behave. And let's start out with the worse offenders. You start with them, and bring them in line, then actually there might not be a problem with the Israelis.

How many times have Israelis interfered in the affairs of sovereign Arab nations again, over matters that do not directly affect them?

Oh, that's right, that would be no times. Are you saying these people are not receiving any funding from wealthy Arabs from any of the surrounding nations, like Saudi Arabia, or maybe the Iranians? I find that hard to believe.

I personally think the Israelis need to dislodge both Hamas and Fatah, just come down on them as hard as a blond haired man comes down on he and his red-haired wife's black haired son, and get their asses out of the way.

Then, quite simply, the Israelis need to impose territorial direct rule, with a military style governor over the Palestinian territories, and rule over them with a firm but fair hand.

Maybe in a couple of hundred years, just maybe, the Palestinians will have sufficiently evolved to where they are capable of running their own sovereign state. Maybe.

I don't see it happening before two hundred years, damn sure certainly not in our lifetimes.

Short of transporting them far away from Israeli borders, that's the only way Palestinians will ever have a peaceful state with rule of law. Take that to the bank.

I don't really care whether its a democratic state, any more than I care whether Israel becomes a Kahanist state. Their business.

Gert said...

FJ:

"Perhaps next time the protestor's will pick a more "opportune" time for protesting, and NOT try and di it in the middle of a military operation."

For what reason does the right to peaceful protest need to be suspended during a 'military operation'?

Great! This way the Israelis can launch as many 'military ops' as they see fit and crack down on any protest as they see fit. Oh, wait, they're already doing that: each time there is a protest in Bilin or Ni'lin the Zionist police/army comes round and declares the area a 'military exclusion zone'...

You read Plato's Republic to spout this kind of nonsense?

Gert said...

Pagan:

"How many times have Israelis interfered in the affairs of sovereign Arab nations again, over matters that do not directly affect them?"

Wrong premise. Arabs states do feel connected to the Palestinian question (albeit not strongly enough).

How about Israel's invasion of Lebabon for the sole purpose of driving out the PLO and 8 years of subsequent occupation of that country?

"Oh, that's right, that would be no times. Are you saying these people are not receiving any funding from wealthy Arabs from any of the surrounding nations, like Saudi Arabia, or maybe the Iranians? I find that hard to believe."

Why? Iran supports Hamas (but we don't really know how that support functions). Saudi Arabia? An ally of the US, not in a hurry to upset Uncle Sam's best new kid on the block. Why would either Iran or Saudi Arabia support peaceful protesters? And how? To what end?

Why does the US support Israel to the tune of $ 3 billion p/a?

"Maybe in a couple of hundred years, just maybe, the Palestinians will have sufficiently evolved to where they are capable of running their own sovereign state. Maybe."

As Gideon Levy, Israeli critic of Israel and contributor to Ha'aretz, once said: 'if what is being said today about Muslims would be said about Jews, all hell would break loose'.

But here you go again, depicting an entire population as 'under-evolved', short in fact perhaps of a 'couple of hundred years' of development. This from someone who in all likelihood doesn't know much at all about Palestinians or their self-rule and who'd probably quite gleefully brush the Palestinian traumas of 1948 and 1967 under the carpet as 'a long time ago'...

Then you go on to say:

"I don't really care whether its a democratic state, any more than I care whether Israel becomes a Kahanist state. Their business."

Which then is it, Pagan? They're either entitled to your implied incompetence or they're not, is that not so?

Meanwhile, a plan to increase the total Zionist settler population by another 10 % is being approved, Shalom!

The Pagan Temple said...

I'm not an expert on Lebanon, but I was under the impression that there was a civil war in that country which was at the very least exacerbated by the presence of the PLO, and that the country was eventually invaded and dominated by Syria, not Israel.

By the same token, did the PLO not use the country as a staging ground for actions against Israel? That would be one possible explanation for such an action.

I knew I'd catch some flak over the "evolved" statement. I meant their evolution as a society capable of functioning as a self-ruling, autonomous state, with a minimum of violence and corruption. That's not something that just comes naturally, it takes time, for anybody.

When I mention the Saudis in this context, I am referring to individual citizens, many of whom are extravagantly wealthy, and who are devoutly Islamic and fundamentalist, and who are acting outside government policy, even though many of them have a high position and influence within the government.

I'm not quite sure what you mean Gert, when you state that I should agree that they are either entitled or not to my "implied incompetence".

I don't necessarily think all people would choose democracy. I don't agree with those who assert that man has an innate desire to be "free" (whatever the hell that means).

I think most people would actually choose security over "freedom", especially if that security brought with it the promise of potential prosperity, and most especially if that potential was demonstrable. Throw in a few basic guaranteed rights and you seal the deal.

That's all most people really care about. Humanity manages to prove that, time and time again.

You can be "free" and spend your life eating out of garbage cans and sleeping in cardboard boxes and dumpsters in alleys. What good is it?

Freedom is relative, and democracy is one of the biggest buzzwords that's ever been coined.

Nobody has any freedom, it's a fucking illusion. People have whatever freedom their leaders can't talk or manipulate them into giving up, and they have the freedom to do just that-give it all up, and it most generally doesn't take too much to get them to do it. An opportunity to take the kids to Disney World a time or two will do in most cases.

Refusing to give it all up is just too much hard work and sacrifice for most.

The Sentinel said...

OK then Gert – cards on the table time - in your honest and considered opinion of the affairs of the Middle East and especially anything Israeli and Palestinian, and given that you clearly spend a lot of time engaged in these matters, what is your ideal and workable solution for everlasting peace, security, freedom and liberty for all in that region?

If you were given some sort of executive license to execute any implementations to that end, what would they be?

And if I may elicit your considered opinion on a couple of other matters, what would be your take on this report from last year:


“Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's incendiary anti-Israel outbursts have united the international community against his country, thus serving a key Israeli interest, former Mossad chief Ephraim Halevy told an American-sponsored Arab satellite television network on Tuesday.

"Ahmadinejad is our greatest gift," Halevy told the Arab language television network Al-Hurra on Tuesday. "We couldn't carry out a better operation at the Mossad than to put a guy like Ahmadinejad in power in Iran."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1013182.html


To this report of yesterday:


“Mahmoud Ahmadinejad revealed to have Jewish past…

A photograph of the Iranian president holding up his identity card during elections in March 2008 clearly shows his family has Jewish roots.

A close-up of the document reveals he was previously known as Sabourjian – a Jewish name meaning cloth weaver…

"He has changed his name for religious reasons, or at least his parents had," said the Iranian-born Jew living in London. "Sabourjian is well known Jewish name in Iran."

A spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London said it would not be drawn on Mr Ahmadinejad's background. "It's not something we'd talk about," said Ron Gidor, a spokesman…

Relatives have previously said a mixture of religious reasons and economic pressures forced his blacksmith father Ahmad to change when Mr Ahmadinejad was aged four.

During this year's presidential debate on television he was goaded to admit that his name had changed but he ignored the jibe.

However Mehdi Khazali, an internet blogger, who called for an investigation of Mr Ahmadinejad's roots was arrested this summer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6256173/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-revealed-to-have-Jewish-past.html


And do you consider this to be a ‘racist’ and ‘supremacist’ policy:


“NAZERETH, ISRAEL // The Israeli government has launched a television and internet advertising campaign urging Israelis to inform on Jewish friends and relatives abroad who may be in danger of marrying non-Jews…

The campaign, which cost US$800,000 (Dh2.9 million), was created in response to reports that half of all Jews outside Israel marry non-Jews. It is just one of several initiatives by the Israeli state and private organisations to try to increase the size of Israel’s Jewish population.

According to one of the advertisements, voiced over by one of the country’s leading news anchors, assimilation is “a strategic national threat” and warns that “more than 50 per cent of Diaspora youth assimilate and are lost to us.”

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090907/FOREIGN/709069840/1002


Bearing in mind that you believe that ““I agree that Israel must maintain its Jewish character. Some consider that racist but I'm not one of them.”

And do you think you could give your honest and considered opinions in this debate without any recourse to barbs, smears or argumentum ad honimen and the like?

FJ said...

"Death to the Jews" is the essence of his position.

Gert said...

Sentinel:

"OK then Gert – cards on the table time - in your honest and considered opinion of the affairs of the Middle East and especially anything Israeli and Palestinian, and given that you clearly spend a lot of time engaged in these matters, what is your ideal and workable solution for everlasting peace, security, freedom and liberty for all in that region?

If you were given some sort of executive license to execute any implementations to that end, what would they be?"


At the end of the day what will become the solution to the problem will be decided by both Israelis and Palestinians. I haven't got a crystal ball and can't predict the future.

But I believe only a one-state solution, a democratic, secular state for Jews, Muslims and Christians with one man/one vote, can be satisfactory for the Palestinians. A two state solution would merely legalise the crimes committed in 1948 (and considering how reluctant Israel is to withdraw from the West Bank, also those between 1967 and present day). Many Palestinians will feel unsatisfied by it and that's a recipe for continued trouble and strife.

That said, if the Palestinians can find a majority that agrees to a two state solution along pre-1967 borders then that is entirely up to them (but they will have to find a way to deal with extremist factions that won't be satisfied with that state of affairs.)

As regards Ahmadinejad's alleged Jewish background, it's possible but also irrelevant. Why should it matter?

Ahmadinejad is of course for the Israeli leadership the gift that keeps on giving, especially since the alleged 'Wipe Israel off the map' flap. Israel is very well served by this perennial enemy because it can forever claim that dealing with Iran is far more important that dealing with the settlements or the Palestinian question. And for the West and the US, having Israel play the part of 'damsel in distress' is a great excuse to try and curb Iran's aspirations to regional hegemony.

On both the 'Wipe Israel off the map' and Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial/revisionism there is one very interesting article, here: A Tale of Two Claims: Ahmadinejad and the Jews.

"According to one of the advertisements, voiced over by one of the country’s leading news anchors, assimilation is “a strategic national threat” and warns that “more than 50 per cent of Diaspora youth assimilate and are lost to us.”"

I've never understood why ethnicity (Jewish, white, black or other) is so important to some people. The idea of 'racial purity' has rarely been used for anything truly good and almost always leads to racism, discrimination, persecution even and worse besides that, and all that on the flimsy basis that 'you look a bit like me but he doesn't'.

I know some Jews who very actively campaign for the preservation of Jewishness, are completely opposed to inter-marriage etc etc and I find these people curious. But it's their right to be that way: they're not breaking any laws.

"Bearing in mind that you believe that ““I agree that Israel must maintain its Jewish character. Some consider that racist but I'm not one of them.”"

'Jewish character' can mean rather a lot of things. The demographic of Palestine has, since the early 19th century and to date, changed enormously due to the massive influx of Zionist Jews. I don't under any circumstance expect these people to somehow pack their bags and return from where they came (what about the many that were actually born there for instance?) And so, even in a one state model, Israel-Palestine will have a Jewish character, as well as Muslim/Palestinian character.

In a two state solution, Israel will become increasingly (perhaps exclusively?) Jewish, currently I do consider that racist because the Right of Return is applied only to one group. But if two states could live side by side then at least that's better than what's going on right now...

Gert said...

FJ:

Like I said before, the depth of the level of indoctrination that many Americans have suffered at the hands of Zionism and their Hasbarah always shines through when these people encounter someone who disagrees with Zionism.

The latter are then depicted as 'genocidal Jew-haters'. But I'm surprised you seem to fall into that trap: for the most part you have at least intelligible arguments. Not so on Israel or Zionism. Pity.

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

“At the end of the day what will become the solution to the problem will be decided by both Israelis and Palestinians.”


Somehow I don’t think it will be decided by both parties. I think it will be decided by one. And I think that is the single most important catalyst of this perpetual cycle of fear, hate and violence that runs in that specific region.


“But I believe only a one-state solution, a democratic, secular state for Jews, Muslims and Christians with one man/one vote, can be satisfactory for the Palestinians.”


I cannot see how that will ever happen now; pre-1948 with lots of planning, education of potential benefits and some considerable but equitable enforcement it may have been an option.

But not anymore.

The sheer animosity and deep rooted mistrust and prejudice that the sides have reached is just too deeply entrenched now and would take at least a generation of equity and conciliation to move forward from, and most likely several generations.

Historically, Jews and Muslims got on very well and Jews played a large part in such Islamic empires the Ottoman and Moorish; it was largely due to the onset of Zionism that ruined that close relationship and of course, after 1948 all traces of the former mutual harmony was eradicated and each side become diametrically opposed enemies.

Besides, the whole foundation of Israel as a homeland for the Jews with it underlying ethnically based ‘law of return’ is counter to a secular and multicultural country.


“A two state solution would merely legalise the crimes committed in 1948…”


I personally think this is the only way that this region will ever move forward, albeit with lots of niggling issues, especially over access to religious edifices.


“As regards Ahmadinejad's alleged Jewish background, it's possible but also irrelevant. Why should it matter?”

It matters enormously.

One Jewish newspaper clarifies the situation a little more:

“Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was born Jewish and converted to Islam”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254393087547&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


It would seem incredible to believe that whilst the Daily Telegraph can find out that Ahmadinejad was born Jewish but converted to Islam and came from a family of practicing Jews, that Mossad had no idea; that Mossad were clueless as to that extremely valuable and explosive piece of information about the leader of the country they purport to be their number 1 enemy.

I think we can say with certainty that not only did Mossad know, but they know pretty much as soon as Ahmadinejad become a real player on the political scene and if they knew something this explosive and held this sort of leverage do you really think it was not used?

It would also seem incredible that this man would actually choose to go down the route he has given his background. What a warped game of epic proportions he would be playing?

The Sentinel said...

It all really seems just too incredible for words, especially as pretty much every savvy Israeli figure agrees that Ahmadinejad is such a wonderful ‘gift’ for Israel, as you already know, having made a post on it some time ago

As well as the former head of Mossad in the source above saying that "Ahmadinejad is our greatest gift,” and even that "We couldn't carry out a better operation at the Mossad than to put a guy like Ahmadinejad in power in Iran" we have considerable agreement about Ahmadinejad’s immense benefit to Israel:


“Ilan Berman, vice president of the American Foreign Policy Council, at the AIPAC conference said of the Iranian government…

There’s been discussion for four or five years now about how powerful or powerless Ahmadinejad is. We know that he’s the gift that keeps on giving…”

http://developing-your-web-presence.blogspot.com/search?q=Ahmadinejad%3A+a+great+gift+to+Israel+


“No matter what the motive, many Iranian analysts believe their president's uncontrollable rage and hatred expressed in public are helping rather than hurting Israel; the Durban II conference just provided another piece of evidence.

These days, a saying attributed to an Israeli general is making the rounds among Iranians: "If Ahmadinejad is not on the Israeli payroll, he should be."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1241773223064&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull


“When it comes to Iran, there is no escaping the old cliche about the elephant and the Jewish problem. And in this case, paradoxically, it seems that from Israel's point of view the victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is actually preferable.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092587.html


Given all of these factors, and the fact that this dispute with Iran has the potential to go nuclear, I think the background of Ahmadinejad is of the greatest interest to all and we all have the right to have the truth about this deeply bizarre anomaly and ask as many questions as possible until we do.

The Sentinel said...

“I've never understood why ethnicity (Jewish, white, black or other) is so important to some people.”


It’s because human beings - in common every other living organism on this planet - only real reason for existence is to reproduce. Underneath all of our sophistication and modern distractions, that is still true and the principle that governs our basest behavior, urges and desires.

And again, in common with every other creature on this planet, the instinctive urge is to reproduce with a partner with the strongest combination of genes available to the procreator within their ‘league’ or essentially similar or ‘one higher’ genetic makeup.

Humans are also a pack animal, a tribal being and at an instinctive level seek to reproduce with those who form a commonality with them and this is the underlying principle of tribes and its modern day extension of nations.

Israelis are worried about Jews procreating with non-Jews because each occasion represents the end of a genetic line of distinctive Jewish ethnicity, and that if this behavior continues to proliferate in the manner it appears to be that it will eventually spell the end for the Jewish ethnicity as an entity and the shared commonality of the Jewish ethnicity and obviously as a consequence, the whole premise of Israel as a nation is irrelevant, and destroyed.

Essentially it would mean that there would be no more Jews left.

That is why there is so much worry about it.

And that is why other races, especially increasing numbers of whites are worried by it.


“'Jewish character' can mean rather a lot of things.”

In reality, at root, it can only mean one thing: Ethnicity.

To say that there is a Jewish character at all is to say that there is a tangible commonality, a set of prevalent features, a range of imitable characteristics that are unique to the Jews, and for that to be the case there has to be a common bond, and for Jews – to be Jewish, to be a Jew - that bond is ethnicity.


“And so, even in a one state model, Israel-Palestine will have a Jewish character, as well as Muslim/Palestinian character.”

One state can not have a Jewish character and a Muslim character when clearly both those characteristics are at odds with each other theologically, ideologically, legally, culturally and even ethnically and pull in opposite directions as a result.

One character must be the dominate character to which the other is subordinate and the laws of nature will ensure that there is an endless battle of wills to be that dominate character.

The Pagan Temple said...

The Sentinel knocks one out of the park. Very well said, Sentinel. I doubt I could ever come close to explaining it as well as you did here. I have never had a problem with expressions of ethnic pride, whether that be black pride, Latino or Hispanic pride, or white pride.

Carried on to it's logical conclusion, you demonstrate quite ably why there is never likely to be a workable "one-state solution" regarding Israel and the Palestinians. I two-state solution is the only thing that will ever work.

And hopefully, if that day ever comes, there will be several other states in between those two states.

Until that time, I stand by my assertion that the Israelis should establish direct territorial governance over the Palestinian territories until such a day as the whole mess can be sorted out satisfactorily.

Unfortunately, I am quite sure none of us living today will ever see that day in our lifetimes.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

I see Pagan is still that racist orientalist shmuck where he assigns "natural superiority" because he assumes a soveign nation is righteous.

Listen little man, what is the difference between Milosevic's All Serb land with the Zionist all Jewish land , while denying the rest the basic rights to live?

To you a lot, because you have the CNN sickness in your neurons... apparently you forgot your lessons the last time I tought you. Or now you are going to be an apologetic and go defensive "I am not racist" and "I care less". (more bla bla bla)

Finally, coming from Lebanon, I find it amusing that you blame everything on the Palestinians, and justify the death of at least 30,000 Lebanese because Israel wants to expel the PLO (not to forget a nice war broke out in Lebanon in 1958 prior to the PLO's arrival and formation). So if you are not an expert on the topic, shut up rather make a clown of yourself.

Damn, that made me laugh still, how old are you, 14?

MFL

The Pagan Temple said...

I don't assume a nation is righteous just because they are a sovereign nation, I just recognize that they ARE a sovereign nation and have the right to protect themselves-uh, by any means necessary. That means war. War is not pretty. People die. If you don't like it, tell your peeps to stop starting shit.

When you have people like the PLO and Hezbollah running rampant through your land, don't expect others to sit back and take it when they use your land, and your population centers, as a staging ground from which to launch missiles.

Number two, I seem to have been sleeping in class when you "tought" me these lessons. I sure don't remember learning anything of value from you, other than "me from Lebanon, me hate da Jews, er, I mean da Zionists."

News flash-until every last Jewish teenage and elderly murder is accounted for and punished, Israel has a free hand, as far as I'm concerned, to do whatever they feel they have to do to put a stop to this crap.

And here's another "lesson" for you. I didn't really give a rats ass about Milosevic, or his all Serb nation attempts. As far as I'm concerned, that was and is a European problem.

I know you like to sing yourself lullabys at night about how Europe and the world came to the defense of the Albanian Serbs for humanitarian reasons, but the real truth is, they didn't want hundreds of thousands more Muslim refugees streaming into their countries. They have enough headaches as it is. Part of the reason they have these headaches is they don't have the courage or the intestinal fortitude to face up to the problem, let alone do something about it.

No, they would much prefer big daddy USA to fight their battles for them. If I had my way about it, the Europeans, and the Albanians, would have been on their own, and still would be on their own.

In other words, don't expect to score points with me by comparing Israel to Serbia. You are right about one thing. I couldn't care less.

Come back and talk to me when you care more for your own people than you hate the "Zionists".

Until then, shut the fuck up.

FJ said...

Polemics are useful in moving one's adversary towards staking out a more "reasonable" and therefore more 'middling' position.

FJ said...

Like I said before, the depth of the level of indoctrination that many Americans have suffered at the hands of Zionism and their Hasbarah always shines through when these people encounter someone who disagrees with Zionism.


btw - Still blaming "the Jews" for the way I think, Gert? You really should spend less time confabulating strawmen to slay. Most of my childhood was spent in foreign lands. Neither Spain nor Venezuela are known to have a "soft spot" for Jews.

Gert said...

Sentinel:

"Given all of these factors, and the fact that this dispute with Iran has the potential to go nuclear, I think the background of Ahmadinejad is of the greatest interest to all and we all have the right to have the truth about this deeply bizarre anomaly and ask as many questions as possible until we do."

Ask away, just don't pretend to speak for 'all' of us. I couldn't give a rat's arse, personally. Keep 'digging' and you'll probably conclude he's a Zionist plant. At that point don't get upset when people start laughing at you...

"To say that there is a Jewish character at all is to say that there is a tangible commonality [...]"

That commonality is largely cultural. Jews are a very diverse group with many subgroups. And Israel is a highly divided country.

You should read Imagined Communities.

You and your great great great grand father share about 3 % of genetic material: you have about as much in common with him as with any randomly chosen person. The idea of 'genetic kinship' within the 'ethno state' is completely bogus, a romantic fantasy and nothing more.

The best example is probably the USA. Despite its hugely diverse 'ethnic' background, the US is probably the most nationalistic and patriotic country in the world. That cohesion is created by man, by nationalism. It didn't need 'ethnic purity' or 'ethnic kinship' to create that patriotism.

"One state can not have a Jewish character and a Muslim character when clearly both those characteristics are at odds with each other theologically, ideologically, legally, culturally and even ethnically and pull in opposite directions as a result."

You're making it too easy for me.

'theologically': Islam borrowed heavily from the two preceding monotheisms but most of all from Judaism. The similarities between these religions are striking. Of course if demagogues for political purposes want to emphasise the differences, they can do so. And in most land disputes religion gets hijacked by these demagogues. There are still some people that believe Northern Ireland was about religion too...

'legally': what do you mean by that? How are they 'legally' different?

'culturally': culturally the ME has always been a mixture. Christians, Muslims and Jews have lived there together in an interesting cultural mix for centuries. Still today in many ME countries, as well as in areas inside of... Israel!

'Ethnically': Palestinians and Jews are probably best described as 'cousins'. Not ethnically all that different. I don't see the Palestinians making a big point of them being 'ethnically different' from Jews for instance.

The unwillingness of Zionists to share the land of Palestine with those who were up to recently truly indigenous to the area today is essentially driven by greed: it's a land grab. Not very different from Milosevic's plans for a Muslim free Greater Serbia (somewhat different means, same goal). And now Israel is established it'll be looking over its shoulder forever, forever fearing the past will come to haunt them. But it's possible to share political power with the Palestinians without bloodbaths.

Gert said...

FJ:

"Neither Spain nor Venezuela are known to have a "soft spot" for Jews."

No, I know: any country that has some elements that are critical of Zionism is either a 'hotbed of anti-Semitism', or an 'anti-Semitic hellhole', right?

Zionist indoctrination ('Hasbarah') exists in most Western countries. The US takes the biscuit because it allied itself with Israel.

It's not a 'World Joooo Conspiracy': Zionism seeks to dominate Palestine, not the world. Zionist propaganda is legal and not very different from other forms of nationalist propaganda.

FJ said...

Slow down, Gert, you're beginning to sound like Mel Zelaya.

Gert said...

FJ:

If those really are Zelaya's viewpoints (I reserve judgement on that - could just be an anti-Zelayan smear campaign), then he's very stupid. I'd like to wait and see what Harry's Place has to say about it.

Anti-Semitism exists (I never claimed otherwise) but the blanket condemnation of any criticism of Israel or Zionism is entirely incorrect and now also quite farcical.

Earth to Farmer: that little ploy doesn't work anymore. Nobody is going to shut up because you call them anti-Semite, Jew hater, self loathing Jew or similar.

Perhaps you're a semitophile? That's the reverse side of the anti-Semitism coin and just as stupid....

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

"Ask away, just don't pretend to speak for 'all' of us."

I didn't pretend that at all, Gert. You did. Its called a strawman, and again it is extremely ironic as as being a self-appointed 'spokesman for the left' and its Isreal-Palestine element is something else you are frequently accused of.


"I couldn't give a rat's arse, personally."

As the post about it on Harry's Place says:

"A Starbucks coffee to the first person who spots the argument by a far-left blogger that being Jewish in no way hinders your ability to become President of Iran."

You really don't think there is something fundamentally wrong with Ahmadinejad being Jewish and also being a rabble rousing anti-Semitic brinkmanship President of a pretty extreme Islamic nation then?


"and you'll probably conclude he's a Zionist plant."

See above.

And then have a think about what the hell a Jewish man is doing, not only in charge of a virulently Islamic nation, but also being such a vocal anti-Semite pushing the nuclear agenda to the very edge - a man so extreme that many Israelis have openly said he is a 'gift' to them, including the former head of Mossad?

You know this, you posted on it.

I am not saying he is a plant, I don't know. But I am saying that it all stinks very, very badly and that questions need to be asked. Like I said, there is now way Mossad did not know about Ahmadinejad's ancestry and there is no way that they would not have at least tried to use it as leverage.

Do you really think that on some sort of moral grounds Mossad would not do this? Do you really think it is the most normal thing in the world for a Jewish man to be the anti-Semitic vitriolic head of a virulent Islamic nation?


"At that point don't get upset when people start laughing at you..."

To paraphrase you Gert 'just don't pretend to speak for 'all' of us.'

This device is typical of the totalitarian mindset.

And no one is laughing at me Gert, but I did notice that you have been mercilessly mocked again this week, and by quite a few.


"That commonality is largely cultural."

No Gert, that commonality is exclusively and openly ethnicity: The law of return.

The Law of Return is based solely upon on genetic lineage and therefore ethnic commonality.

That is how Israel chooses to define its commonality whether you like it or not, Gert.


"You and your great great great grand father share about 3 % of genetic material: you have about as much in common with him as with any randomly chosen person."

Well, that is not true at all.

What is the first question a doctor will ask you about illnesses, Gert?

And could that be because certain diseases are hereditary? Passed down through Genes?

As are decisive factors in looks, build, height, temperament and intelligence.

The Sentinel said...

"The idea of 'genetic kinship' within the 'ethno state' is completely bogus, a romantic fantasy and nothing more."


Here is a little bit on the subject, in an article by a world renowned (and consequently world smeared) expert on the subject, Professor J. Philippe Rushton:

"Ever since the 1994 publication of The History and Geography of Human Genes by Stanford University geneticist Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, it has been possible to measure genetic distances between population groups in terms of family equivalents.

Anthropologist Henry Harpending showed that against the background of worldwide genetic variance, the average similarity between people within a single population is the same as that between half-siblings. Political scientist Frank Salter calculated that compared to the Danes, any two random English people have a kinship of 1/32 of a cousin. Two English people become the equivalent of 3/8 of a cousin by comparison with people from the Near East, 1/2 cousin by comparison with people from India, half-siblings by comparison with people from China, and like full-siblings compared with people from sub-Saharan Africa.

Thus, the aggregate of genes people share with co-ethnics dwarfs those shared with extended families. Rather than being a poor relation of family nepotism, ethnic nepotism is virtually a proxy for it."


"The best example is probably the USA. Despite its hugely diverse 'ethnic' background, the US is probably the most nationalistic and patriotic country in the world."


I would say that award in the western world falls to the Australians; you cannot move for flags, iconic 'Oz' maps and frequent statements of their being Australian, usually for no apparent reason.

And the English, despite decades of anti-English teachings are still extremely nationalistic; it is just a shame it mainly manifests itself in England football games and the tribal violence associated with it.

The British army is so successful, professional and envied because of its commonality.

But as to your contention, in the US most people still choose to define themselves as African-American, Italian-American, Irish-American etc with their ancestry taking the first part of the equation over the American part.

Just as people in the US largely live in ethnic enclaves. Just as people committed to prisons in the US organise and self-segregate along ethnic lines. Just as my experience with working with the US military showed me that that was the prevalent case in all arms too.

The Sentinel said...

"You're making it too easy for me."

I think you are reaching and over compensating here.

I think you know that my explanation was as close to the reality as it gets.


"'theologically': Islam borrowed heavily from the two preceding monotheisms but most of all from Judaism. The similarities between these religions are striking."

They worship two completely different Gods and have derogatory labels for those who do not believe in their respective Gods - Goyim and Kafir - and have some very draconian rules as to what should be done with such heretics.


"Of course if demagogues for political purposes want to emphasise the differences, they can do so. And in most land disputes religion gets hijacked by these demagogues."

Face it, they have irreconcilable differences and they are never now going to sit around a camp fire holding hands and singing Bob Dillion songs.


"There are still some people that believe Northern Ireland was about religion too..."

And there are some who have served there several times and know much better then those who haven't what the realities were.

In fact the first time I served there I was told by a SNCO that NI was 'like a woman' - don't try and figure out the whys and the moods, just do your job and realise that at any one time, at least one faction will want you dead and at varying times, they will all want you dead.

And all of that epic violence has come to naught this week when the Irish voted yes for Lisbon and turned their backs on the Easter Declaration.


"'legally': what do you mean by that? How are they 'legally' different?"

Sharia & Halakha, perhaps?


"'culturally': culturally the ME has always been a mixture. Christians, Muslims and Jews have lived there together in an interesting cultural mix for centuries"

And now they live there in violent opposition. That is the reality.


"'Ethnically': Palestinians and Jews are probably best described as 'cousins'. Not ethnically all that different"

Really? Any evidence for that Gert?


"I don't see the Palestinians making a big point of them being 'ethnically different' from Jews for instance."

I think there is.

But in any case, the issue is clearly there as they couldn't use the 'Law of Return' to live in Israel.


But ultimately, you have revealed that you are opposed to the very existence of Israel when you say:

"In a two state solution, Israel will become increasingly (perhaps exclusively?) Jewish, currently I do consider that racist because the Right of Return is applied only to one group."

Israel's very existence is - and was always - to give a homeland for the Jewish people - an ethnic group - where they might live or escape to if need to be.

This is Israel's raison d'être and the Law of Return is a logical and natural reflection of this.

If you are opposed to the Law of Return as 'racist' and also reject it's premise as 'racist; then you are rejecting the whole basis of Israel's existence.

FJ said...

Yep. Gert will only accept "final solutions" to the Jewish problem.

That's why he'll only accept proposed settlements leading to one.

Gert said...

Sentinel:

"You really don't think there is something fundamentally wrong with Ahmadinejad being Jewish and also being a rabble rousing anti-Semitic brinkmanship President of a pretty extreme Islamic nation then?"

Two crocs for the price of one. Ahmadinejad isn't Jewish, he's Muslim. He may have had Jewish ancestry. Not the same thing at all. Also, Ahmadinejad is not an anti-Semite. That's Zionist baloney.

"And then have a think about what the hell a Jewish man is doing, not only in charge of a virulently Islamic nation, but also being such a vocal anti-Semite pushing the nuclear agenda to the very edge - a man so extreme that many Israelis have openly said he is a 'gift' to them, including the former head of Mossad?"

Your inability/unwillingness to see context shines through again. A. is a gift to the Israeli leadership because they can project the Nation's whipped up fears of another Holocaust onto him and Iran. It allows the Israeli leadership to divert attention from the Palestinian question.The same was also true of Iraq, Hamas and Hezbollah. But it doesn't imply foul play.

"Do you really think that on some sort of moral grounds Mossad would not do this?"

Maybe not but that doesn't prove (AT ALL) that they had a hand in it.

"This device is typical of the totalitarian mindset."

You don't understand totalitarianism.

"No Gert, that commonality is exclusively and openly ethnicity: The law of return."

Complete bullcrap. If I married a Jewish girl tomorrow and underwent a rabbinical conversion I'd be eligible to 'return', no questions asked. No genetic basis here.

"The Law of Return is based solely upon on genetic lineage and therefore ethnic commonality."

Non-Jews can convert to Judaism. No problem at all.

"Well, that is not true at all."

Oh dear.

You and your siblings get 50 % of their genome from your father and 50 % from your mother. Your children will get 50 % from you and 50 % from your wife. That means your children have 25 % of the genes for your grandfather and 25 % from your grandmother. Etc etc.

I wasn't being flippant when I wrote 'great great great grandfather', I was being literal:

100 % then 50 % then 25 % then 12.5 % then 6.25 % then 3.125 % (five generations). You share 3.125 % of your genetic material with your GGG GF. 100 % true. Simple and indisputable.

"If you are opposed to the Law of Return as 'racist' and also reject it's premise as 'racist; then you are rejecting the whole basis of Israel's existence."

I don't reject the whole basis of Israel's existence, I don't even reject Israel's existence. A ridiculous straw man only you could come up with. I reject the right of Israelis to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous population. Very big difference.

Gert said...

FJ:

Zzzzz....

The Pagan Temple said...

Sentinel-

This is off-topic, but what the hell is going on in Britain? What's this about an old disabled woman being arrested for "poking" a teenage boy with her finger after she confronted him for throwing rocks at her house? That has got to beat just about anything I ever heard in my life.

And just to keep it relevant to the topic, why should anyone pay heed to complaints from the European leadership vis-a-vie Israeli-Palestinian relations when they promote and actually execute these kinds of policies in their own homes?

Taking everything in context, I suppose if the boy had assaulted the lady's house with a RPG, her finger-jabbing him might be considered a "proportional response", but I wouldn't bet on it.

FJ said...

I reject the right of Israelis to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous population.

Why? That's what the Pseudostinians did to them.

ps - only mythologists buy autochthonous people arguments, my little spartoi friend. Please relay that message to Cadmus... or I'll likely unleash another plague on Io.

FJ said...

...either that or toss another welfare stone into the UNWRA pot that only pays Sunni welfare queens to live in camps and make trouble for Jews.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Pagan,

CNN victims like yourself always have my pity.

Find out why PLO, Hamas, and others came into existance, and under what brutality. Using the presence of political parties to justify ethnic cleansing is just pethatic. None of us over here want the pity of a racist, the mere fact that Palestinians remain till this day struggling for their rights sticks up a middle finger on people like you who refuse to investigate the reality of the situation (such as Israel unleashing its fanatic hooligans on streets then sending its IDF to do damage control --> beating palestinians and arresting them... oh these zealots, they are also terrorists as well, no comment on that? or you havent read about them on CNN?

Try to read Joe Sacco's Palestine, since it is in cartoons and doesnt require much effort from your IQ

MFL

Gert said...

FJ:

What MFL said...

Gert said...

MarxistFromLebanon:

Not sure why you keep going on about CNN, they're pretty bad but far from the worst of a bad lot. But Anderson Cooper, yeah, he really thinks he' such a journalist, doesn't he? It shows that with clever branding you can sell ice to Eskimos.

To those in Britain who complain about the Beeb, I say go live in the US. There you can simply buy the 'news' you want to hear... no worries.

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

I notice that you have now skipped over a substantial portion of your refuted contentions and reduced to the below:


“Two crocs for the price of one. Ahmadinejad isn't Jewish, he's Muslim.”

You know better then the Jewish press?

“Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was born Jewish and converted to Islam”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254393087547&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


“He may have had Jewish ancestry. Not the same thing at all.”

He was born Jewish and converted – like I said ‘Do you really think it is the most normal thing in the world for a Jewish man to be the anti-Semitic vitriolic head of a virulent Islamic nation?’


“Complete bullcrap. If I married a Jewish girl tomorrow and underwent a rabbinical conversion I'd be eligible to 'return', no questions asked. No genetic basis here.”

Well, for a start, not before the 1970 amendment you couldn’t; Secondly any offspring you may have would be half Jewish in this scenario and thirdly if you merely underwent a rabbinical conversion without being married to a Jew you wouldn’t be clearly eligible for ‘return’ at all.

So quite clearly, as I stated - as is the bleeding obvious - the whole premise of the Law of Return is purely of genetic basis. The spouse amendment is worded as thus:

"The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".

You see the caveat Jew consistently, Gert? You see the ethnic basis and requirements for even this amendment, Gert?

And the fact that even this non-Jewish spouse would be bring into the world a half Jewish child?


“Also, Ahmadinejad is not an anti-Semite. That's Zionist baloney.”

I agree that he didn’t say that Israel ‘should be wiped off the map’, in fact, as you well know I posted on it.

But I think most people would define his various other statements as somewhat anti-Semitic in nature, to say the least:


"The pretext for establishing the Zionist regime is a lie," he said, "a lie which relies on an unreliable claim, a mythical claim, and the occupation of Palestine."

Referring to Western leaders, he said: "They launched the myth of the Holocaust. They lied, they put on a show and then they support the Jews."

Israel's days were "numbered" and its regime is "dying," he added.”

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=251:ahmadinejad-denies-holocaust-threatens-israel&catid=2:&Itemid=251

The Sentinel said...

“Your inability/unwillingness to see context shines through again. A. is a gift to the Israeli leadership because they can project the Nation's whipped up fears of another Holocaust onto him and Iran… But it doesn't imply foul play.”

Really?! It doesn’t? Someone consistently referred to as a ‘gift’ to Israel even by former head of Mossad doesn’t imply foul play when we now know that Mossad would have had immense leverage over that 'gift'?


“Maybe not but that doesn't prove (AT ALL) that they had a hand in it.”

I didn’t say it did prove it; I pointed out that of course they would use it as leverage and of course they knew about it.

Given that I think it is obvious that at the very least an attempt has been made to use this information for benefit.


“You don't understand totalitarianism.”

Unfortunately I do Gert;

I live a country run by those with a totalitarian mind set at all levels of government.


“Non-Jews can convert to Judaism. No problem at all.”

A recent and very contentious emergence and not at all certain or clear, Gert, as you should know.

And in a clearly ethnic motivated statement, the Chief Rabbinate in 1998 said he would continue to reject non-Orthodox converts and demands that the yud on thier identity cards stands for "Israeli" rather than "Jew.”


“You and your siblings get 50 % of their genome from your father and 50 % from your mother…I wasn't being flippant when I wrote 'great great great grandfather', I was being literal”

And that is why some disease skip a generation or even two; but as an example of that ongoing genetic link if your great, great, great grandfather had an hereditary disease, such as diabetes, and it skipped two generations then it would pass to your great grandfather who could pass then disease to you.

And guess who you could pass it onto to? So yes, family genes do play a very tangible role in humans.


“I don't reject the whole basis of Israel's existence, I don't even reject Israel's existence. A ridiculous straw man only you could come up with.”

Do you even know why Israel exists Gert and the legitimacy of that existence? Please don’t tell me you devoted your entire life on a false premise?

If you don’t then by God man, you need to find out fast.

If you do then everything I said is true:

‘Israel's very existence is - and was always - to give a homeland for the Jewish people - an ethnic group - where they might live or escape to if need to be.

This is Israel's raison d'être and the Law of Return is a logical and natural reflection of this.

If you are opposed to the Law of Return as 'racist' and also reject it's premise as 'racist; then you are rejecting the whole basis of Israel's existence.

The Sentinel said...

Pagan Temple,

The UK has long been in the grip of the demented PC brigade and the laws and the policing of the UK have become increasing absurd in their fevered dereference to that cult. To advance in the public services now is to not only embrace the cult but to be seen to be the most enthusiastic zealot.

And of course that all trickles down the with absolutely insane and ludicrous hypocrites of the likes of Harriet Harman ascending to be the elected number 2 in the UK (we have many unelected above her in reality though,)

Harman is that typical UK socialist: The champagne socialist. The offspring of very wealthy parents and subject to an extremely privileged background, she nonetheless feels it is her God given right to force her outrageous and fantastically absurd class war hate, assorted bias and discrimination on the British people.

The background to this immensely sick woman includes the fact that as a newly qualified solicitor she became legal officer for the National Council for Civil Liberties, now known as Liberty, in 1978.

Among the groups affiliated to NCCL were the Paedophile Information Exchange and Paedophile Action for Liberation, whose members argued openly for the abolition of the age of consent.

Amid growing public concern about adults preying on children, the Protection of Children Bill was put before Parliament in order to tighten the laws on child pornography by banning indecent images of under-16s.

NCCL’s official response, signed by Miss Harman and submitted in April 1978, claimed that the new law could lead to “damaging and absurd prosecutions” and “increase censorship”.

She suggested that a pornographic photo or film of a child should not be considered indecent unless it could be shown that the subject had suffered, and that prosecutors would have to prove harm rather than defendants having to justify themselves.

She is now the ‘equalities’ minister – only in this PC insanity could such a warped creature could be remotely deemed as being suitable to minister for equality- and the ostensible number 2 in the UK government.

Other examples of her approach to equality include that she does "not agree with all-male leaderships" because men "cannot be left to run things on their own" (She then tried to change Labour's rules to ensure that a woman was always in a top job by force.)

And her recent male hating statement “that if it had been Lehman Sisters, rather than Lehman Brothers, then there may not have been as much” – blaming men for the finical meltdown.

And of course she is a great exponent for mass immigration and advocates this multi-cult rubbish but was too afraid to walk around her own ‘culturally enriched' constituency without a bullet proof vest!!

I could go on and on about pretty much all of these vile specimens that govern and influence the UK including the leader of the so-called opposition – who will almost certainly be the next Prime Minister - who has such a low opinion of the people he seeks to represent that he thinks that ‘it is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life, not the other way around.’

And then there is former Home Secretary Jack Straw – now the Minister for Justice - who wrote in a constitutional document for the Falklands that “the English as a race are not worth saving.”

As I said I could go on and on.

They hate the British people, our history, our culture, our values and our very existence.

The Sentinel said...

Some more recent examples of contemporary British policing under the PC cultists include this truly sad and shocking story:

“Could there be a more desperately sad story than the tale of Fiona Pilkington, the mother driven by the action of bullies apparently to kill herself and her daughter in a burning car?

What made it worse was the utter failure of the police to protect this family despite their pleas for help. The mother contacted her local constabulary more than 20 times over a seven-year period but officers failed to respond because there were "not enough resources". No doubt had she told them she had bought a gun to protect her home and family, dozens of armed officers would have been there in no time – to arrest her.

Her house was routinely surrounded by baying yobs. Her son was locked in a shed at knifepoint and beaten with a metal bar, and her daughter, who had severe learning difficulties, endured the sound of stones thrown at her bedroom window as she went to bed, accompanied by shouts demanding that she lift up her nightdress…”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/6212862/Fiona-Pilkingtons-story-shows-that-the-police-must-connect-with-local-people.html


Their tormenters?

As free as a bird. Not a charge. Not even an eviction. They still live in the same house on the same benefits.

Contrast that to the swift and draconian action that this thought crime and offence against PC in their own property attracted by the police though:


“A Christian couple have been charged with a criminal offence after taking part in what they regarded as a reasonable discussion about religion with guests at their hotel.

Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang were arrested after a Muslim woman complained to police that she had been offended by their comments.

They have been charged under public order laws with using ‘threatening, abusive or insulting words’ that were ‘religiously aggravated’.

The use by the police of the Public Order Act to arrest people over offensive comments has dismayed a number of lawyers, who say the legislation was passed to deal with law and order problems in the streets.

Neil Addison, a prominent criminal barrister and expert in religious law, said: ‘The purpose of the Public Order Act is to prevent disorder, but I’m very concerned that the police are using it merely because someone is offended.

‘It should be used where there is violence, yobbish behaviour or gratuitous personal abuse. It should never be used where there has been a personal conversation or debate with views firmly expressed.

‘If someone is in a discussion and they don’t like what they are hearing, they can walk away.’

He added that the police had a legal duty under the Human Rights Act to defend free speech ‘and I think they are forgetting that’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214666/Christian-hotel-owners-hauled-court-defending-beliefs-discussion-Muslim-guest.html

The Sentinel said...

And as for that often quoted police excuse for failing to do their job of ‘very limited resources’ they manage to find the time and resources to pander to PC over their actual job of law enforcement:


“Three female police officers were ordered to dress up as Muslim women for the day just to see what it felt like.

They wore traditional burkhas as part of a scheme designed to help police interact better with the Islamic community…

The officers, Sergeant Deb Leonard, Sergeant Deb Pickering and Police Community Support Officer Helen Turner, all from Sheffield, were accompanied by four Muslim women to help them learn more about the Islamic faith on a tour of the city.

In return, the Muslim women were shown around South Yorkshire Police’s custody suite and CCTV office and learned about the day-to-day duties of a police officer.
A spokesman for the force said the exercise, called ‘In Your Shoes Day’, was designed to help officers interact better with the Muslim community across Sheffield.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204037/Police-exercise-labelled-gimmick-officers-spend-day-dressed-burkhas.html


But then I suppose they are a little less busy as the police have decided that large areas of their job no longer apply to them:

“Dealing with antisocial behaviour and ' low-level' hooliganism is no longer the responsibility of the police, a senior officer said yesterday.

Superintendent Steve Harrod, speaking at the inquest of a mother and her disabled daughter who were hounded to their deaths by yobs, said it is now the responsibility of local councils since a law change in 1998.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216168/Dont-help-yobs--hooligans-councils-problem-says-police-officer.html


Again, I could go on and on about this, but I think you can get the flavor.

The Pagan Temple said...

I get my news from a variety of sources. CNN is not one of them. Nor is Fox News, nor MSNBC (which Marxist From Lebanon probably would say is a reactionary, far-right news organization). I make it a point to try and get a balanced view and perspective on current events.

I've learned enough in this way to know that, contrary to the belief of a good many, Muslims do not wrap the entirety of their existences around hatred of Israel/Jews.

They have to set aside some time for the murder and/or mutilation of gay men and adulterous women-adulterous women in their cases running the gamut to everything from actual adulterous women to thirteen year old girls who have the temerity to be victims of gang raped, and to those shameless hussies who allow a man to catch a glimpse of one or another part of their facial features-or their ankles.

But, as for those who do hate the Jews/Israelis, I don't suppose I should blame them too much. Who could blame them? How dare those filthy Zionist pigs counter-attack by targeting areas from which missiles are launched into Israeli territories. Don't those pigs know those missiles are being launched by Hamas and Hezbollah from inhabited residential areas?

Please, Jews-THINK OF THE CHIIIIIILLLLL-DREEEENNNNN.

Gert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gert said...

Sentinel:

"You see the caveat Jew consistently, Gert? You see the ethnic basis and requirements for even this amendment, Gert?"

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

No one denies there's an ethnic basis for Jewry but it's not purely genetic either: if one's mother is Jewish, one is Jewish. But one's Jewish mother may have been a convert to Judaism, or one's grandmother etc. Like in all groups, there's been influx and outflux.

Have you never heard the story of the 250 (or so) Peruvian 'Jews' who were 'imported' into Israel and made Aliyah there?

Among the million (or so) of Russians that immigrated to Israel, many turned out not to be Jewish. But they're still there.

On 'race' and genetics you're a hopeless reductionist. Do you at least understand why you share only 3.125 % of genetic material with your GGG GF? Or do you still dispute that?

What becomes of a 'true Brit' adopted by French parents and is never told about this adoption? He becomes a Frenchman, mon cher...

Cultural influences are at least as important as one's genetic make-up. To think otherwise is simplistic. We're humans, not animals.

I didn't respond to your spiel about Australia, the British Army etc, because my response would only upset you.

Gert said...

Pagan:

"But, as for those who do hate the Jews/Israelis, I don't suppose I should blame them too much. Who could blame them? How dare those filthy Zionist pigs counter-attack by targeting areas from which missiles are launched into Israeli territories. Don't those pigs know those missiles are being launched by Hamas and Hezbollah from inhabited residential areas?"

Your favourite tactic, isn't it? Distorting what others say and then attacking the distortion, not the actual argument. Very Zionist too.

Let me spell this out for you (although why on Earth I'm wasting my time with you, G-d only knows). I don't know of a single anti-Zionist that doesn't accept that Israel has the right to defend herself. That's not the argument. It's not Goldstone's argument either. The argument is that in the case of the winter war on Gaza the response to the Qassam 'rockets' was wholly disproportionate. The wanton destruction of civilian property, of schools, hospitals, a university, UN premises etc etc constitute war crimes, IMHO.

And the Zionist bed time story of '8 years of Qassam rockets' is also nonsense: there were many half-baked truces and interruptions of said truces by both sides during that period. The attack started shortly after a period of lull in the missile launches.

Israel used overwhelming firepower because Israeli soldiers coming back in body bags plays out real badly in the Israeli media. See also Lebanon II and the hand wringing that that brought about by the 'victors' (the IDF).

The occupied, BTW, have the right to resist occupation. That right is enshrined in international law. Self defense here works both ways.

The rest of your comment on Muslims is nothing more than plain Muslim-baiting hysteria and stereotyping.

FJ said...

Gert,

What the Jews suffered under the Pseudostinians was exactly what the Pseudostinians are suffering now. Did they grant equal citizenship rights to Jews, or were Christians and Jews simply "dhimmi's"? In the words of the great prophet, Michelmann III, "What goes around, comes around."

The Pagan Temple said...

"The wanton destruction of civilian property, of schools, hospitals, a university, UN premises etc etc constitute war crimes, IMHO."

One big problem with that, Gert. Those facilities were precisely were the rockets were fired from. Yes, that is including the UN facilities.

"The rest of your comment on Muslims is nothing more than plain Muslim-baiting hysteria and stereotyping."

No, actually, it's news. Ask around if you don't believe me. It's nothing for a sixty-year old man to marry a girl barely in her teens by way of arranged marriage. If that girl falls in love with a man her own age, she might well be taking her life in her hands. If the state don't kill her (depending on the state where the "crime" transpired), her father and/or brothers well might do so.

Or, they might kill her if she is actually raped.

It is nothing for a woman to have acid thrown in her face for not being sufficiently covered.

Are all Muslims like this? Of course not. But there's an old saying about the two political parties in America that might illustrate my point, vis-a-vie the Palestinians and the Israelis, as I think it would aptly apply to them as well.

The Republican Party has it's lunatic fringe.

The Democratic Party has it's lunatic mainstream.

Take that how you will.

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

Again you have skipped over a significant portion of your refuted contentions.

“Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.”

Barbs and the like always creep in with you Gert; you managed to stay free in your first comment but had slipped already by the second.


“No one denies there's an ethnic basis for Jewry”

Well, we got there in the end.

And now all you have to do is bridge the gap to the truth that Israel was founded as a homeland for Jews – that is an ethnic homeland for ethnic Jews; that is its legitimacy for its formation as an entity and its entire raison d'être – and we are all the way home.

And then you can explain why it is that you are against the very premise of the existence of Israel - its 'racist' - and as consequence, clearly against the continued existence of Israel.


“Have you never heard the story of the 250 (or so) Peruvian 'Jews' who were 'imported' into Israel and made Aliyah there?”

How many non-Jewish converts have been allowed to use the Law of Return, Gert?


“Among the million (or so) of Russians that immigrated to Israel, many turned out not to be Jewish. But they're still there.”

How many were not Jewish, Gert? And how do they know? And why did they let them enter in the first place?


“On 'race' and genetics you're a hopeless reductionist. Do you at least understand why you share only 3.125 % of genetic material with your GGG GF? Or do you still dispute that?”

I haven’t disputed anything; I have said that contrary to your contemptuous dismissal, family genetics play a large part in human lineage; and they do.


“What becomes of a 'true Brit' adopted by French parents and is never told about this adoption? He becomes a Frenchman, mon cher...”

What about the ‘true Pakistanis’ who emigrated to Britain and who’s sons WERE told they were British but still chose to blow themselves up on London’s tubes and a bus purely to kill as many of their ‘fellow Britons’ as they could and becoming the first ever suicide bombers in British history - because British people do not do things like that; it is against their values, their culture and their disposition.

The Sentinel said...

“Cultural influences are at least as important as one's genetic make-up. To think otherwise is simplistic. We're humans, not animals.”

Cultural influences come second to genetics, our human program.

We also know that some of these genes vary considerably in prevalence between ethnic groups.

One example is the RR variant of ACTN3, a gene that affects fast generation of muscular force and correlates with excellence at speed and power sports.

The opposite variant of the gene is called XX. Tests indicate that the ratio of people with RR to people with XX is 1 to 1 among Asians, 2 to 1 among European whites, and more than 4 to 1 among African-Americans.

You get the same pattern for testosterone, Chinese have lower levels than Europeans, who in turn have lower average levels than Africans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

And we also know that these genes and their effects – for example higher levels of testosterone - play a large part in determining behavior.

Another factor recently discovered is the low activity variant of MAO-A. This, gene has been found to be associated with a broad range of antisocial phenotypes, including physical violence.

Given the variation in allele frequencies between populations for virtually every known polymorphic gene, it is exceedingly improbable that populations do not differ in the alleles that affect the structural and functional basis of heritable behavioral traits. In fact there is data to suggest it does, and quite widely.

But anyhow, this is a report on MAOA is from a MSM site:


“Boys who carry a particular variation of the gene Monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), sometimes called the "warrior gene," are more likely not only to join gangs but also to be among the most violent members and to use weapons, according to a new study from The Florida State University that is the first to confirm an MAOA link specifically to gangs and guns.”

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090605123237.htm


”I didn't respond to your spiel about Australia, the British Army etc, because my response would only upset you.”

Yeah, right! Like that’s ever been a consideration at all!!
Go ahead punk, make my day!

Gert said...

FJ:

"What the Jews suffered under the Pseudostinians was exactly what the Pseudostinians are suffering now."

Ridiculous to hold Palestinians responsible for past Jewish suffering. You're really scraping the barrel now.

What goes around comes around? Better watch your backs then, eh?

Gert said...

Pagan:

"One big problem with that, Gert. Those facilities were precisely were the rockets were fired from. Yes, that is including the UN facilities."

Not true. Read Goldstone.

I'm shortly publishing a first hand account by a Gazan woman (and NOT a fan of Hamas) that categorically refutes it too.

For the rest of your comment on Muslims, I'm gonna bow to your superior knowledge. After all, non-Muslims/non-Arabs don't commit crime at all. Although the prisons are bursting at the seams with non-Muslims/non-Arabs, go to any penitentiary facility and ask them: they're all innocent!

Gert said...

Sentinel:

"And now all you have to do is bridge the gap to the truth that Israel was founded as a homeland for Jews – that is an ethnic homeland for ethnic Jews; that is its legitimacy for its formation as an entity and its entire raison d'être – and we are all the way home.

And then you can explain why it is that you are against the very premise of the existence of Israel - its 'racist' - and as consequence, clearly against the continued existence of Israel."


This is how in your mind you 'win' debates: by attributing viewpoints to the opponent he doesn't hold or represent.

If the creation of Israel hadn't resulted (and continues to do so) in massive ethnic cleansing of Palestine and if the RoR had applied equally to those expelled in 1948 and 1967, anti-Zionism wouldn't even exist. You know that too but refuse to acknowledge it to try and score points.

"How many were not Jewish, Gert? And how do they know? And why did they let them enter in the first place?"

The Russian Jews were an answer to Israeli prayers: the country needs a constant influx of Jews to stave off the dreaded 'demographic nightmare'. During the Russian Aliyah, many slipped in who had Jewish fathers or Jewish grandfathers only. I don't know how many. Up to about 100,000 it is alleged. Some may have converted by now.

"Yeah, right! Like that’s ever been a consideration at all!!
Go ahead punk, make my day!"


No, I've wasted more than enough time here already.

Gert said...

Oh, and BTW Sentinel, after 10 generations the offspring has less than 0.1 % genetic material in common with the ancestor. 10 generations? That's roughly 250 years. Imagine how much you must have in common with the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts (but what about the Romans, the Vikings and the Normans, Sent? Too 'foreign' to consider into you're 'heritage'?)

FJ said...

Ridiculous to hold Palestinians responsible for past Jewish suffering.

Yes it's quite ridiculous to hold Moslems accountable for a millenia of Sharia inspired oppression. Almost as ridiculous as holding Jews accountable for dislocating the Pseudostinians in the forties and having the UN make welfare payments for sixty years to support them.

The Pagan Temple said...

Come on, Gert, how many fathers and brothers from non-Arab/non-Muslim cultures do you know of that will murder their daughters or sisters for the "crime" of having sex, or even for being raped, or just for marrying a man against the families approval? Can't you at least concede that civilized people from other cultures might have a legitimate problem with such a cultural mindset?

I'll be looking for your post. I might even link it, just as a way of presenting an alternative viewpoint, even if I don't agree with it-which I doubt I will, just to be frank. It's going to take some convincing for me to believe those facilities were not used by Hamas, or at the very least that the Israelis didn't honestly believe they were.

Gert said...

Pagan:

"Can't you at least concede that civilized people from other cultures might have a legitimate problem with such a cultural mindset?"

If it truly was a 'cultural mindset', then yes. But by practically equating the Taleban with the Muslim world you make a big mistake.

And I love it when Conservatives start harping on about 'women's rights' or 'persecution of gay Persians'. If it wasn't for European emancipation movements (yep, those 'PC fascists') women would still be walking six feet behind their menfolk.

In Britain, acts of homosexuality were imprisonable offences up to 1967.

All three monotheisms have bizarre views on women and sexuality. The extreme treatments that some women receive in parts of the Muslim world are far more the results of extremely traditional attitudes towards sex and gender.

Being allowed to wear short skirts BTW is hardly 'liberating' or 'civilised'.

"It's going to take some convincing for me to believe those facilities were not used by Hamas, or at the very least that the Israelis didn't honestly believe they were."

Read Goldstone.

Gert said...

FJ:

"Yes it's quite ridiculous to hold Moslems accountable for a millenia of Sharia inspired oppression. Almost as ridiculous as holding Jews accountable for dislocating the Pseudostinians in the forties and having the UN make welfare payments for sixty years to support them."

The more liberal treatment of minorities by majorities is quite a recent phenomenon, also in the Western world. You hold double standards.

$ 3 billion US tax dollars p/a to Israel, basically since 1967. Care to add it up?

Pssst: between Plato and modernity 'stuff happened'.

FJ said...

I'm flouting double standards? How many Jews are in the Saudi government presently? Egyptian? Pakistani? Afghani? Iraqi? Yemeni? The Emirates? Jordan?

You are dismissed, Two-face.

FJ said...

Following the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine of 1947, Jordan was one of the Arab countries that attacked the new Jewish state of Israel. It gained control of the West Bank, and expelled its remaining Jewish population. Jordan lost the West Bank during the 1967 Six-Day war, but did not relinquish its claim to the West Bank until 1988. Jordan did not join Syria and Egypt in attacking Israel during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Jordan eventually signed the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace in 1994, normalizing relations between the two countries.

Ethnic cleansing and denial of equal citizenship rights by Arab countries to Jews seems "perfectly acceptable" to you. Yet you deny Israel the same prerogative. How "Western" of you, fork tongue.

FJ said...

In case you failed to notice, Israel is CURRENTLY entirely surrounded by countries and peoples for whom "western values" HAVE NO VALUE. For you to insist upon application of standards sympathetic with you own western bias and prejudices is the epitomy of intellectual hubris.

FJ said...

...and the same goes for Islamic treatment of homosexuals. Homosexuals currently are, and always will be, an "abomination" in the eyes of all "peoples of the Book," your own personal predelictions and piccadillos not withsatnding.

Gert said...

FJ:

Of course that gives Zionists the right to ethnically cleanse Palestine, doesn't it?

The Zionist project started in earnest because there are no Jews in positions of power in Arab countries, that's its real justification. That's why Herzl contemplated Argentina for the New Israel. And oh yeah, Uganda!

Now I'm off to create a 'New France' in the ME because there are no Frenchmen in Arab governments...

FJ, honestly, you'll drag everything and the kitchen sink into it, to justify what's been done and continues to be done to the 'Pseudostinians'.

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

And once again you have skipped over a significant portion of your refuted contentions leaving just a point or two that you now cling to.


“This is how in your mind you 'win' debates: by attributing viewpoints to the opponent he doesn't hold or represent.”

I suppose seeing as you clearly like to think you know more about other people’s countries and the solutions to their problems then they do I should not be too surprised that you also think you can mind read too and have some sort of infallible system of knowing what people are thinking. It would certainly help to prevent and punish those thought crimes you pursue so slavishly.

But in reality Gert, you do not. You are a mere mortal like the rest of us and all I have done is used the application of logic to your dogmatic statements and positions.


“If the creation of Israel hadn't resulted (and continues to do so) in massive ethnic cleansing of Palestine and if the RoR had applied equally to those expelled in 1948 and 1967, anti-Zionism wouldn't even exist. You know that too but refuse to acknowledge it to try and score points.”

And you talk of ‘attributing viewpoints to the opponent he doesn't hold or represent!’

Nowhere has that been even raised, let alone disputed here.

What has been said is that you think any country that has its basis, its premise, its foundation and its raison d'être on purely ethnic grounds is racist. You have said so. And you also think racism should not be tolerated on any level.

Israel was established solely as homeland for ethnic Jews and owes its entire legitimacy to that concept; its underlying definition of ‘who is a Jew’ was / is those that would have been persecuted by the Nuremberg Laws: Therefore a wholly genetic – ethnic – and not a halakhi / religious criteria is / was used for deciding who can qualify under the law of return. The various amendments have not detracted from this one iota, they have merely only widened the linkage and parameters to the ethnic principle.

Given all of this and given that your position that this is racism:

"In a two state solution, Israel will become increasingly (perhaps exclusively?) Jewish, currently I do consider that racist because the Right of Return is applied only to one group."

Cleary you do not agree with the very premise of Israel’s existence, and clearly then, by way of reason, you cannot agree with its continued existence either.

No smoke and mirrors here. That is obviously your real position.



“The Russian Jews were an answer to Israeli prayers: the country needs a constant influx of Jews… During the Russian Aliyah, many slipped in who had Jewish fathers or Jewish grandfathers only.”

You see again we are back to the fact that my contention is – quite obviously – correct and the decision to grant these Russians entry was based upon purely ethnic considerations.

Which again you consider to be ‘racist.’


“No, I've wasted more than enough time here already”

First you don’t want to upset me and now you can’t waste your time.

Come on, who do you think you’re fooling Gert?

The Sentinel said...

““Imagine how much you must have in common with the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts (but what about the Romans, the Vikings and the Normans, Sent? Too 'foreign' to consider into you're 'heritage'?)”


To paraphrase you once again, Gert ‘Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall’ – the reality of the close genetic ethnic bond irregardless of time passed as proven by science has already been carefully explained to you by one of the world leading experts:

"Ever since the 1994 publication of The History and Geography of Human Genes by Stanford University geneticist Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, it has been possible to measure genetic distances between population groups in terms of family equivalents.

Anthropologist Henry Harpending showed that against the background of worldwide genetic variance, the average similarity between people within a single population is the same as that between half-siblings. Political scientist Frank Salter calculated that compared to the Danes, any two random English people have a kinship of 1/32 of a cousin. Two English people become the equivalent of 3/8 of a cousin by comparison with people from the Near East, 1/2 cousin by comparison with people from India, half-siblings by comparison with people from China, and like full-siblings compared with people from sub-Saharan Africa.

Thus, the aggregate of genes people share with co-ethnics dwarfs those shared with extended families. Rather than being a poor relation of family nepotism, ethnic nepotism is virtually a proxy for it."


Come on, keep up.

FJ said...

Of course that gives Zionists the right to ethnically cleanse Palestine, doesn't it?

Yep. It's called tit-for-tat. It happens ALL the time during EVERY war that's EVER been fought. If you've got a problem with that, talk to the Greeks and Armenians genocided during/after WWI by your "Pseudostinian" cousins.

FJ said...

None of the Arab countries in the region have opened up and granted full citizenship rights to Jews. Why you hold the Jews to a higher standard is a reflection of your own particular irrational western prejudice. A prejudice which can only bear a singular result, complete annihilation of the Jewish people.

FJ said...

If the British people want to impose their values upon the region, let them go in and re-take it. Short of that, they should butt the hell out.

FJ said...

btw - What part of Israeli territory can the Pseudostinians hold against the Israeli army?

None.

When you lose the war and can't defend your land, you know what typically happens? It becomes your enemy's. Of course, that never prevents scoundrels and fools from trying to finegle to get it back. It sure worked for Hitler in the 30's.

ps - Aren't the German's are overdue for reclaiming the Sudentenland?

The Sentinel said...

FJ:

Gert is neither British (he is a Belgian) nor does he represent ordinary British values – or pretty much anything to do with my country.

And with the very sad decline of British state education under this PC junta I would be very surprised if the majority of young working class Britons would even now know that we had ever had a mandate in that region at all, let alone form an opinion on it and the current situation.

FJ said...

Especially when there are huge newly discovered oil reserves under the lands in question.

Did you know that Venezuela currently raids and destroys all Guyanese oil exploration camps in the "disputed" territories in Guyana? Did you know that Venezuela has similarly "disputed" claims against the Columbians, but doesn't dare label their maps accordingly?

FJ said...

I'm happy to hear that, Sentinel, I was under the impression that Gert posted from the UK. Sorry to impugn your magnificent country!

As for the Belgians, let them reminisce upon their Congolese misadventures, some of the most oppressive of the twentieth century.

Gert said...

FJ:

You're merely justifying one wrong with an alleged other wrong. The 'Pseudostinians' will never give up. The most moderate ones don't even want all that much.

Your position is unrealistic and outdated.

The Sentinel said...

As clearly demonstrated Gert, you reject the entire basis of Israel's existence and brand it 'racist' and so by extension you oppose Israel's continued existence as a country based upon that premise.

Whilst there are people that have that position Gert, there will be no peace.

Gert said...

Sentinel:

Your self-serving, narrow, reductionist interpretation (complete with cherry picking invocation of assorted experts) makes any debate on 'race', genetics', 'hereditary principles' and similar terms completely impossible and thus a complete waste of our respective times.

What makes a human being a human being, both genetically and culturally, is infinitely more complex that even a million of your Tinkerweb links could possibly convey.

I think you're still stuck on Mendelian genetics but no matter how insightful that is, it's a very far cry from a modern understanding of human genetics.

Can that really 'piss poor organisation called NHS that passes for a health care system (cockroaches and all)' also be explained by genetics, do you think? Oh no, that's those 'PC Marxist Fascists' doing, isn't it? What about Britain's notoriously loving relationship with alcohol and binge-drinking? Football hooliganism maybe an expression of 'genetic kinship' when going abroad?

In many ways your views are like a comic book: two dimensional, jingoistic stuff.

Go easy on the 'race hygiene' because inbreeding isn't good for the population's genome (LOL).

Gert said...

Sent:

"Whilst there are people that have that position Gert, there will be no peace."

And still you deny using straw men arguments: it seems to me you're arguing with yourself, not with me.

For the umpteenth time, Israel exists and I do not advocate its undoing. Merely that it allows, in one form or another (one state or two states) the Palestinians to that part of Palestine to which clearly they are entitled.

You're making things hopelessly complicated in order to try and score points. It's dumb Sent, really dumb...

Gert said...

Sent:

I have an idea for you. Since as you're such an intrepid debater, why not espouse your views on 'race' and Zionism on some of the really big blogs like Mondoweiss or Harry's Place?

Why just muddle here, where there's hardly anyone who can hear you?

Gert said...

And Farmer should take a leaf out of this man's book... Well, we all should...

The Sentinel said...

Gert,

Another typically angry, empty and bizarre rant when forced to face home truths you’d rather were not aired.

You haven’t provided a single scrap of evidence for your first set of absurdities – just more facile analogies -whereas I have provided plenty of scientific proof for my contentions. (Hence the anger.)

But the real raw nerve I have hit here is the simple fact that you are against the very basis of the existence of Israel: Which is as an ethnic homeland for ethnic Jews based upon an ethnic law of return; something you condemn as ‘racist’.

Of course you will do pretty much anything to avoid the simple fact that you are clearly anti-Israeli from sticking, which places you in a tenuous position:

Are you now saying that although you reject the whole ethnic basis to Israel’s very existence and therefore it’s continued existence as ‘racist’ you will nonetheless make an exception that this is OK in this case? If so, why?

If you are not saying that Israel is an exception in your book then you must clearly be condemning the whole legitimacy of Israel’s existence.

And again, if it is the former then you have no right whatsoever to condemn those who call for similar ethnic homogeneity in their nations and similar immigration laws.

For instance, as I have educated you several times, the only constitutional definition of who is British is contained in the Act of Settlement 1701 and follows lines extremely similar to the Israeli Law of Return; the British Nationality Act 1948 – a parliamentary law - that was publicly used to repeal the provisions of the constitutional Act of Settlement 1701 does not have any legal foundation or right to do so. As a consequence the constitution of the United Kingdom has been willfully ignored as has its principle of Jus Sanguinus in matters of citizenship, a serious issue that will no doubt remerge.

When I have pointed that out in the past you have thoroughly condemned it as an idiotic ‘racist’ foundation – but now you claim that you are OK with the same idiotic ‘racist’ foundation for the formation and existence of Israel?

Is that what you are saying Gert?

You cannot have it both ways I am afraid, my friend.

And thanks for the advice on where you think I should be debating, and I know that you think you have some sort of right to decide for people and entire nations – but I can assure you that in my case at least, you do not.

I debate in many places when the fancy takes me Gert, and no doubt much to your chagrin, all of them are of my own choice.

FJ said...

Your position is unrealistic and outdated.

No, the subordination of the citizen rights of Jews and Christians under Shari'a Law is what is unrealsitic, outdated AND precisely what the Pseudostinians are fighting for... just ASK them.

And until they renounce it, they deserve to get there *sses kicked from now to Kingdom Come.

Pseudostinians "moderates"... you really are a dope.

FJ said...

And Farmer should take a leaf out of this man's book... Well, we all should...

Good luck with THAT...

I've got an even Better one, but the Pseudostinians won't put theirs down. It's what keeps telling them that Christians and Jews aren't worth spit and to oppress them and make them "submit" wherever they may be found.

FJ said...

Israel has survived for over sixty years by ignoring the completely idiotic and unrealistic proposals put forward by western apologists with a fantasy of a progressive secular Islamic state where the rights of non-Moslems would be respected. There never was nor will there ever be such a place in the Islamic world. Just ask the Pseudostinians... "Will you recognize Israel's right to exist..." Answer - "NYET!" Do you think Ahmedinejab, et al, are kidding when they threaten Israel with annihilation? Are you REALLY that stupid?

The Pagan Temple said...

Jerusalem is a sacred city to the Palestinians, and even their moderate leaders have stated that all non-Muslims should be banned from entering it, just as the case with Mecca, and I assume Medina.

I heard this out of the mouth of one of these leaders, a woman who is in fact generally considered a moderate.

Such a viewpoint virtually guarantees there will never be peace in our lifetimes. When peace finally comes, if it ever does, it will only be at the price of a great deal more bloodshed.

Gert said...

Sent:

"Are you now saying that although you reject the whole ethnic basis to Israel’s very existence and therefore it’s continued existence as ‘racist’ you will nonetheless make an exception that this is OK in this case? If so, why?"

Its continued existence would only be racist if it continues to follow the same racist, exceptionalist policies it's followed for about sixty years.

Israel/Palestine is a scrambled egg that cannot be unscrambled. We can only hope to make the best of a bad situation. Israel is practically pushing a one state situation on itself (as Olmert wisely noted), either that or fully fledged de jure Apartheid.

"And again, if it is the former then you have no right whatsoever to condemn those who call for similar ethnic homogeneity in their nations and similar immigration laws."

Of course I have that right. No two situations are ever completely identical. But I don't really 'condemn' your 'ethno-nationalism'; I just can't take it seriously: this vision of a past 'White Ingeland' and your wet dream of a return to a past that never really existed to begin with simply don't merit serious critiquing.

"As a consequence the constitution of the United Kingdom has been willfully ignored as has its principle of Jus Sanguinus in matters of citizenship, a serious issue that will no doubt remerge."

Please don't make me piss myself with uncontrollable convulsions of laughter.

"You cannot have it both ways I am afraid, my friend."

Oh, but I can: reality isn't quite as linear as you'd like it to be.

"I debate in many places when the fancy takes me Gert, and no doubt much to your chagrin, all of them are of my own choice."

No chagrin here (but depite your hysterics about 'PC fascists' trying to 'silence' you, you make more noise here than anyone else) but I note that, for all your bluster, you haven't got the balls to go and defend your 'ideas' elsewhere.

On the work of Luigi Cavalli-Sforza Wiki has this:

"One of the more distinguished geneticists of the 20th century, Cavalli-Sforza has summed up his work for laymen under five topics covered in Genes, Peoples, and Languages. Physiologist and evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond praised the work for "demolishing scientists' attempts to classify human populations into races in the same way that they classify birds and other species into races." According to an article published in The Economist, the work of Cavalli-Sforza "challenges the assumption that there are significant genetic differences between human races, and indeed, the idea that 'race' has any useful biological meaning at all". On the other hand, "evolutionary conservative" Steve Sailer views Cavalli-Sforza's work as confirming traditional racial classifications and his dismissal of the concept of race as "merely a politically correct smoke screen"."

So, just as on Ahmadinejad's alleged Jewish family background (never mind your 'twos the Mossad wot did it' fantasy) opinion is divided (despite what you claim), clearly not everyone sees his work as confirmation of 'racial theory'. You do but you would do the same with Steve Jones' excellent (and very readable) 'The language of the Genes', despite strong protestations by the author.

Gert said...

FJ:

"Do you think Ahmedinejab, et al, are kidding when they threaten Israel with annihilation?"

He never said 'Wipe Israel off the map'. See also the link I provided above: A Tale of Two Claims: Ahmadinejad and the Jews.

But your 'tit for tat' spiel above made me thinking and got me an idea: 'an eye for an eye and a Holocaust for a Holocaust!'

Since as six million Jews perished in the Shoa, murdered by Europeans, I propose a 'healing Shoa', in which 6 million, mainly Europeans but also some Americans, will have to die in order to satisfy the 'tit-for-tat' principle.

Now, since as apart from a few fugitive Nazis, most Europeans are actually innocent of the crime (unless you believe the sins of the fathers pass onto the sons (as you seem to do), the cleansing killing will have to be carried out on the basis of a 'Holocaust Retribution Lottery', to ensure fairness and that every Jewish victim is avenged, down to the last one.

What say you, my little fruitcake?

Gert said...

BTW Farmer, Sentinel isn't really an Englishman, he lives on the Outer Hebrides and when they brought the Tinkerwebs there it fried his brain...

Gert said...

Apparently Sentinel's brain allergy to the Tinkerwebs is due to a rare gene, INTER/NOGO-57, somewhat concentrated in the genepool of the Outer Hebrides population. Apparently INTER/NOGO-57 can skip up to sixteen generations. Renowned 'Genetrologists' (the science that combines Mendelian genetics with Astrology) claim the gene can even hopscotch!

The Sentinel said...

Oh dear, oh dear Gerty, the inevitable lapse into the angry, empty and bizarre rants are here again as is the pathological recourse to argumentum ad honimen, insults and smears as we arrive at the same point end point we always do: The complete refutation of all of your ludicrous claims; your exposure as a dishonest hypocrite and your complete debate defeat.


“Its continued existence would only be racist if it continues to follow the same racist, exceptionalist policies it's followed for about sixty years.”

Which it has and it does and it will unless rabid anti-Israelis like you ever manage to destroy the country.

So here we have it, finally, from the horse’s mouth: You are anti-Israeli.

You reject the whole legitimacy of Israel’s existence and its continued existence. Not only do you not believe Israel should ever have been formed, but you would like to see Israel now destroyed.


“Of course I have that right. No two situations are ever completely identical.”

Of course you don’t have the right if you follow ordinary etiquette and decency because it would make you a dishonest hypocrite.

But you don’t understand that, now do you Gerty?


“But I don't really 'condemn' your 'ethno-nationalism'; I just can't take it seriously: this vision of a past 'White Ingeland'”

You are a malcontent foreigner Gerty, what England was you know nothing about; what England will be is none of your concern.


“Please don't make me piss myself with uncontrollable convulsions of laughter.”

It is hardly surprising that to a totalitarian fascistic foreign agitator like you the ignorance, undermining and subversion of the constuitions of the United Kingdom that you don’t like is of immense satisfaction and amusement.

But I can assure you that as the multi-cult experiment inflamers like you have helped impose falls apart in the most spectacular fashion, and the country is once again governed by its own for its own, the constuition will be revisited once again.


“Oh, but I can: reality isn't quite as linear as you'd like it to be.”

Oh but you can’t; not without being exposed as a dishonest hypocrite.

The Sentinel said...

“No chagrin here (but depite your hysterics about 'PC fascists' trying to 'silence' you, you make more noise here than anyone else)”

What a typically bizarre statement and attempt at some kind of spite but devoid of any foundation in reality here.

And you are the well noted hysteric Gerty. Dozens, if not hundreds have called you out on it. You have also been labeled as the “King of Ad Honimen” too.


“but I note that, for all your bluster, you haven't got the balls to go and defend your 'ideas' elsewhere.”

Oh dear, oh dear Gerty.

Of course to an out of reality internet hermit like yourself you believe that tapping a keyboard and posting on a hostile blog is an act of immense bravery, but in the real world Gerty it is not even remotely close to an act of bravery that require any ‘balls’ at all. Not even when organizing ‘blog raids’ and ‘bands of pirates’ Gerty!

What all this really comes down to I suspect is that you want me to go to Harry’s Place - the blog where you are revered as their internet clown and enthusiastically welcomed to comment so they can have hours of fun mocking you mercilessly – and take some sort of revenge by proxy for you.

It’s not going to happen Gerty.

I comment where I like, when I like, if I like and on what I like and not because some 50 year old Belgian oddball issues a playground taunt via the internet.

Try as you might Gerty, you have no control over me whatsoever.

You hate that don’t you?


“So, just as on Ahmadinejad's alleged Jewish family background (never mind your 'twos the Mossad wot did it' fantasy) opinion is divided (despite what you claim)”

Again, just more bizarre rants devoid of any foundation in reality.

You do not react well to adversity at all do you now, Gerty?


“BTW Farmer, Sentinel isn't really an Englishman, he lives on the Outer Hebrides and when they brought the Tinkerwebs there it fried his brain... Apparently Sentinel's brain allergy to the Tinkerwebs is due to a rare gene, INTER/NOGO-57..”

And of course, true to form you end on a note that sums up your character succinctly:

Bizarre, dishonest, complete fantasist, spiteful, malicious and demented.

Again, you cannot stand the truth being spoken as when I stated about you not being British – it’s true, you are not and you never will be. Whereas I am as British and as English as it gets and reside right in the middle of my capital city right in the middle of this PC mess. It is my ancestral homeland of countless generations. And you cannot stand the fact that your absurd claims vis-à-vis ethnicity and race are so easily demolished by scientific evidence.

You hate that, don’t you Gerty?

It enrages you, doesn’t it Gerty?

Gert said...

But when the gene for hooliganism (HOOLIGENE-23), mainly found on the mainland, is found together with INTER/NOGO-57 on the same genome, serious genetical defects arise at birth. For that reason Outer Hebredians are strongly advised against 'out marrying'.

Angry? Moi? No way, this is too much fun...

The Pagan Temple said...

I have an idea for the Israelis and the Palestinians. I call it "The Ted Baxter Procedure", from the old Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Let the Palestinians pick out their "toughest guy"*. Then let the Israelis pick out their "toughest guy". Let the two "toughest guys" fight it out. Winner take all.

*Suicide belts not allowed

That makes exactly every bit as much sense as ANYTHING I've ever heard proposed by the American or the European left as far as dealing with this mess.

Or we can use my plan. The Israelis impose direct territorial rule over the Palestinian territories, appoint an Israeli territorial governor (or a Palestinian or Israeli Arab that will be answerable solely to the Israelis, and to no one else.

Dislodge Hamas and Fatah and ban them from any further positions of power or from participation in any aspect of politics.

The Israelis then run the education system, supply the water, sewage, power, and the jobs, and maintain the basic infrastructure while giving some Palestinians positions of limited power and influence, in this way paving the way for the creation of a bona fide Palestinian civil service, necessary for the functioning of any society.

Israel controls the judicial system and the courts, and applies the rule of law, strictly but fairly, with naught but the slightest of oversight from the international community to insure they do so, which is every bit in their own best interests that they do so.

After so many decades, it should get to the point that there can actually be an independent Palestinian state, one that can exist alongside Israel in peace and security.

Of course, that will never happen as long as the left has its way, because the left is too interested in keeping the suffering and agony going, for as long as it possibly can.

The Sentinel said...

Like I said Gerty, the inevitable lapse into the angry, empty and bizarre rants are here again as is the pathological recourse to argumentum ad honimen, insults and smears as we arrive at the same end point always do: The complete refutation of all of your ludicrous claims; your exposure as a dishonest hypocrite and your complete debate defeat.

These very weird rants are where we always end up when all of your absurdities are completely debunked and you are totally exposed as a shallow hypocrite with not a shred of credibility, do they not, Gerty.

And everyone can see it.

You hate that don't you Gerty?

It enrages you doesn't it Gerty?

You are a rabid anti-Israeli who hates the whole basis of Israel's existence, denies it legitimacy to exist and wants to see it destroyed.

Your sheer contempt for the Shoa is revealed yet again by your disgustingly flippant comments on the Holocaust - clearly you think it is all just one big joke, Gerty. Sick. But true to form. What can be expected from someone who thinks a parody entitled "Ze Ultimate Solushion" is fine to post on his blog?

Your immense ignorance is exposed again too with this disgusting flippancy because there was a holocaust of Europeans, of greater magnitude the Shoa and just a decade before.

But all of the weird ranting sums up your entire being:

Bizarre, dishonest, complete fantasist, spiteful, malicious and demented.

You hate been exposed don't you Gerty?

That enrages you doesn't it Gerty?

Oh how they mock you Gerty, how they mock you...

Gert said...

INTER/NOGO-57 is unfortunately closely chromosomally linked to an otherwise unknown gene (XCZ-15). Bearers of both genes show a propensity for extreme verbosity, delusions of grandeur, paranoid delusions, Internet oriented Attention Deficiency Syndrome and sadly, the complete absence of a sense of humour...

Gert said...

Pagan:

When it comes to I-P you've always struck me as someone who's never actually heard any of the other side's arguments and whose own opinion is exclusively based on second and third hand opinions (the sort of thing that you've read on the Interwebs, from a blogger guy who's nephew's best friend is a rightwing hack who writes a column for 'The Whatever Sun' in Dodge City?)

Your latest plan is simply pure genius: it's International Community endorsed legalised Apartheid! Go for it boy, go for it...

Haven't you got something Paganistic to attend to? Some Hollywood goss or somfink?

The Sentinel said...

I can hear Harry’s place calling out for you Gerty - they want their clown back.

I think your label as ““King of Ad Honimen” is somewhat of a misnomer, I think the “Queen of Ad Honimen” is much more apt, don’t you Gertrude?

Let me have a look at what the latest from ‘Gert’s daughter’ is…

How they mock you Gerty, how they mock you…

FJ said...

What say you, my little fruitcake?

Only six million? Oooops.

FJ said...

...but then, I'm not the one arguing a case of "past injustice" that needs to be rectified, am I. That would be your "keep paying the poor oppressed UNWRA welfare queens" argument. It's time the Pseudostinians moved on with their lives and got over events long settled.

FJ said...

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, PSEUDOSTINE. YOU LOST!!!!

Gert said...

Scientists have discovered that the gene for binge drinking (BOOZEBINGE-5c) so prevalent among British bearers of the still disputed 'poverty gene' (POORBUTCLEAN-01) may be the cause of an old belief system that still causes some British tourists to boil tap water prior to drinking it when going abroad.

The Pagan Temple said...

No, Gert, I've heard their arguments. I notice how you didn't respond when I pointed out how one moderate Palestinian leader, a woman who was a spokeswoman for Fatah, said that Muslims were well within their rights to not merely fight to take over Jerusalem, but that when they do, it would be perfectly understandable that they would ban all non-Muslims from the city.

That was not a far-right wing crackpot blogging from his mum's basement, nor did I get this from a "link" to an article I am sure you would disavow anyway. I got this straight from the horses mouth-again, a moderate Palestinian spokesperson for Fatah, a woman who shrugged her soldiers in obvious mystification as to why anyone would question the rights of Muslims to ban all non-Muslims from the confines of Jerusalem, just as they have done (more justifiably)in the cases of Mecca and Medina.

So no, I have heard their arguments. I even sympathize not just a little bit with the desires of the average Palestinian family to live in peace and raise their families in some modicum of dignity and promise.

I just think they've given their hopes over to the wrong spokespersons, who pursue tactics guaranteed to make sure there will never be peace. They don't really want peace, do they? I won't say for sure what they do want, as I have no way of knowing. But if they want peace, they sure are going about it the wrong way. They've been going about it the wrong way for decades now, and have thrown away every opportunity to embrace a peaceful solution, even those that give them most of what they want.

That tells me they aren't interested in getting just most of what they want, they want it all, and if the truth was known, they have a good many unstated goals on top of that.

Actually, I'll be honest with you. The best thing the Israelis could do for themselves would be to abandon Jerusalem and the "promised land". Consign it to the dustbin of history and mythology, and go about finding a new land somewhere else, someplace where they can actually live in peace. I mean, what is there in Israel anyway. There is no oil, for example. It's too tiny to have many resources of an appreciable amount.

But they've made a go of it against all odds, so far, and they don't seem to care for my opinion. So I guess they'll stick around.

Blame the UN for that, they set this whole mess up.

The Sentinel said...

"WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, PSEUDOSTINE. YOU LOST!!!!"

Of course (s)he has FJ; (s)he has been thoroughly trounced again and on the favourite obsession, the life's devotion too; and (s)he knows it- hence the bizarre little hissy fit distractions!

The "Queen of Ad Hominem" emerges again.

But Harry's Place is missing Gertrude; they are missing thier ridiculous internet clown. Oh how they mock poor old Gertrude.

Here is the latest of the regular mocking from 'Gert's Daughter':


"I hadn’t seen dad in a while so called round to his squat yesterday. The place was full of dad’s ‘progressive’ friends, but I didn’t get to see him.

Apparently he got hold of some Iranian prison footage a couple of weeks ago and was so excited by the extensive rape footage that he hasn’t been seen since. His friends were angry because they’d been promised a turn with it. My father is deeply disturbed but there’s nothing anyone can do."


And out of dozens more gems, here are two from the latest Harry's Place Gertrude mock mode:


"Gert, could you get Daniel Hoffmann-Gill to post over here? It would be top class entertainment to have two such insane cunts on show at once. Cheers."


"Great to have Gert back, unequaled entertainment! And he used the word ‘Zios’ (does he make these up himself?).

Two things amaze me about Gert: One is he makes Bob Pitt look almost reasonable, and the other is that he gives hope to any man (no matter how objectionable, depraved and ugly) who has difficulty pulling a bird. Gert obviously did it, and procreated, so by god anyone (and I mean *anyone*) can!"

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/09/26/naivety-over-iran/


Oh how they mock you Gerty...

Gert said...

On the positive side scientists may now be able to put British racism, already enormously on the decline, to bed for once and for all. A new technique, Deep Genetic Probing (DGP) has revealed true British racists carry three genes, RACSCUM-01, RACSUPRE-02 and RACGEN-03. And because racism runs in families, voluntary screening programs are now available for those who may carry one or more of these genes, allowing them to avoid partnering with others who may be equally at risk. This way, in just a few generations the three genes may become totally isolated and thus unable to express themselves.

Who'd have thought British racism turned out to be in fact... a genetic disease!

On the downside, DPG on the population of the Outer Hebrides has thus far failed to unearth the gene(s?) for 'sheer imbecility'. More on that story later...

Gert said...

Pagan:

I really don't know what you've been reading or where you get your ideas from.

Even the most extreme faction of the Palestinians, Hamas, has declared repeatedly and for over three years now to be open to a two state solution along 1967 borders with capital in E.J'sem, in return for a 50 year truce (Hudna).

They've [Hamas] been saying (nay, make that SHOUTING OFF THE ROOFTOPS) that for all these years now. Israel and the West consistently ignore this and continue their blockade of Gaza, a blockade that started because Hamas got elected. And now the rocket fire has fallen silent the blockade continues unabated (even the most basic of building materials aren't allowed in).

Meanwhile expansion of settlements continues. Israel has some 400,000 settlers in the West Bank, almost 10 % of the Jewish Israeli population, in spite of the fact that this is considered illegal under international law and is condemned by 99 % of world-wide nations, including Israel's own greatest ally, the US.

Who can still, after 40 years of this charade of building settlements and expropriation of Palestinian land, honestly believe that Israel isn't seeking peace but rather the entire colonisation of Palestine? Israel wants peace, yes: but entirely on its own terms. It loves the 'peace process' but only the 'process' part of it.

Pagan, I was once quite Zionistic, pro-peace of course, but quite pro-Israel too. I can't anymore. Waiting for all that time for Israel to finally start trading in some of its 'bargaining chips' and getting nothing makes me believe (very logically) that they want to simply keep the bargaining chips and be done with it.

Israel is like a spoiled child, forever getting its own way, no amount of tuttuting by its parents withstanding. It could even have made me anti-Semitic but I can't (and don't want to be and will not be) be that way: the world is full of Jewish anti-Zionists who abhor what's being done in their name. These fine people get called 'self-hating Jews' for their trouble. Charming!

The Pagan Temple said...

I didn't read it Gert, I heard the woman say that on a CNN interview debate, some years ago. And just to be clear (because I'm sure somebody else here is going to say something about CNN) this was a woman who was a very well known and respected Palestinian spokeswoman. I just can't recall her name. I would almost be willing to bet a hundred dollars you would know who I was talking about.

I'll give you this much though, Gert, it could very well be that when she made that statement, about banning non-Muslims from Jerusalem, she might have been meaning specifically that part of East Jerusalem that is predominantly Muslim, and not the entirety of the city.

But whatever the case, whatever she might have meant, I can promise you she did say it.

FJ said...

Why shouldn't the Israeli's settle on the West Bank? It's THEIR LAND!

I think it's time Belgians stopped trying to get the Pseudostinians to set a UN precedent to serve as a basis for their own future claims and attempted theft of Noord Brabant from the Dutch...

I can see the headlines now, "BELGIANS Demand End of New Dutch Home Construction in Breda, Tiburg and Eindhoven"...

FJ said...

What's going to be next, Gert. A resurrection of Belgian territorial claims on Zeeland?

"Justice! Justice for the PseudostiZeenians""

Gert said...

Pagan:

Look, it's entirely possible [about this woman on CNN], why not? Palestinian opinion is strongly divided, as is Jewish/Zionist opinion.

The views of this woman or that man need to seen in some perspective though.

I'm in touch (email) with a few Israelis (zionists) and at least two of them are totally opposed to the occupation of Palestinian land and claim they form a sizeable minority. Polls on the subject are all over the show, ranging wildly.

But the rightwing has taken over the reins in Israel for quite a long time now. And that leadership is seriously intransigent on territory. Read for instance Likud's Charter.

Netanyahu seems to be winning his war of nerves with Obama, at least for the moment. But I still can't see Israel 'going it alone': public opinion in Israel is strongly opposed to that.

Gert said...

FJ:

Sheesh kebab: if only you'd have nailed your colours to the mast earlier! That would have saved us so much time, Farmer... But at least I know where you stand now.

Master B. will be so pleased with you: 'good dog, have a biscuit'...

The Sentinel said...

"I'm in touch (email) with a few Israelis (zionists)"


Have you invited them to be a part of your 'band of pirates' yet on some bizarre middle-aged 'blog raid' - you know, sent out loads more your Walter Mitty FYE only trollmails?

But all in all, given that you clearly hate the very foundation and basis of Israel's existence - and consequently Israel itself - deny the very premise which is Israel's legitimacy to exist and are opposed to the continued existence of Israel, I think the only real remaining question is this Gerty:

Are you an anti-Semite because you are anti-Israeli, or you are anti-Israeli because you are an anti-Semite?

Gert said...

The search for the elusive 'sheer imbecility' genes in the population of the Outer Hebrides, scientists claim, may be hampered by several factors. Said one head honcho of the program: 'Sheer imbecility may have to be broken down into various facets, like inability to understand irony, sarcasm or satire, inability to read 'inter alea', inability to contextualise, inability for self-criticism or self-relativation and obsessiveness with literal interpretation of texts. If so, the search for genes for 'sheer imbecility' may really be more complicated than originally anticipated'.

We will keep you abreast of any progress in the search for genes that may explain these sub-traits.

The Sentinel said...

You really have no idea of what a syphilitic lunatic you reveal yourself to be with these bizarre, pure fantasy nuggets of weirdness Gerty, do you?!

And you really have no idea that everyone can see that you have been defeated once again, and on your life's obsession too but cannot face the reality, hence the furious descent into dementia!

Oh dear Gertrude, no wonder you are so widely mocked on the Internet! No wonder you are such an entraining clown for us all!

So which is it Gerty?

Are you an anti-Semite because you are anti-Israeli, or you are anti-Israeli because you are an anti-Semite?

Whilst you ponder which hatred came first - the race or the country - we can all ponder the many summations of your deeply absurd flawed character and insane dogma; and we can all have a good laugh at the comedy your flawed, absurd insanity has inspired in so many!


“Well, Gert, we may be pathetic, but at least we read what we're commenting on before hurling insults, unlike yourself.

I don't think you even understand the issues here. I don't think you have any philosophical point of view on the subject, Gert. You're just another cultist, trained to point at heretics and chant slogans, my friend. You see a trigger, your mouth opens, out comes the pre-programmed denunciation.

Yes, your kind of "liberalism" (an offence to the meaning of the world "liberal" is a cult. Just like scientology, or the moonies, or the various fundamentalisms. You're trained not to think for yourself, to argue always by authority, to cut yourself off from non-believers, only venturing among them to cause dismay or to try to proselytise. And your only weapon, devoid as you are of logical support for your belief system, is to shout the heretic down. Condemn her with a word. "Racist!" you shout, and the heretic is cast out.

And under it all, you're terrified that you may be wrong. You pour over your pamphlets and your websites, bolstering your beliefs like somebody squinting at the quaran before beating his wife. But you don't think about anything. You never question what you beleive (for fear you may come to doubt it). And as we see, you don't even bother to consider the heretics' words before condemning them.

Oooh, we have "racist tendencies". But strangely, ye who would condemn every white person on the planet, even the unborn are completely devoid of racism.

Be daring, Gert. Do something you've never dared to do before. Consider and analyse your own beliefs and dare, just for a second, to consider that you may be wrong.”

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/11/the_word_racist.html


And comedy from the world of 'Gerts Daughter':

“My dad is at his keyboard shaking and foaming at the mouth. It’s pretty bad. At first I thought some of you people had made him angry again, but then I realised it was because his Images of the Holocaust screensaver was broken.

He makes me so ashamed.”



“But dad, all you ever do is ‘rustle up’ stuff for me. From those ‘anti-Zionist’ sites you stare at all day. The ones with the big fonts, strange symbols and old pictures of bodies.

You said yourself that you’ll only be truly happy when you ‘get a Jew to pay’ for ‘all those Palestinian babies’. Any Jew you said, anywhere. Then you looked strange and wept, because you didn’t have the courage to do such a thing yourself. You said you were ashamed. But not as much as I was.”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/06/01/a-long-way-from-texas/


Oh how they mock you Gerty, how they mock you...

Gert said...

News reaches us from the Outer Hebrides of a peculiar discovery that some describe as 'the Elephant Man of genetics'. The subject in question, about which little is know apart from the fact that he blogs using the moniker 'Da Sentinel', appears to bear ALL genes described above, as well as a few others that may be responsible for homophobia.

When gently queried by medical staff, the blogger became very upset and verbally agitated. He shouted: "PC fascist Marxist scum, the lot of ya! Jooos killed the USS Liberty, Jooos committed the genocide of Armenian Christians. The Jooo Einstein was a plagiarist. Ahmadinejad is a Jewish plant operated by the Mossad! The ADL is a Mossad proxy! Jooos control the media. The gas chambers were made in France, d'ya hear? Sarkozy is a Jooo (or maybe a Khazar, hehehe!) You're all mad fascist Marxist totalitarians! Long live the glorious English Race!".

After having been restrained and sedated, Da Sentinel whispered something about "Harry's Place" and "Gerty", before passing out.

He'll be kept under observation for a few days. Gene therapy may be offered in due course.

The Sentinel said...

Don’t like Harry’s Place anymore Gerty?

Oh well, let’s try some other sites that have got you and your number to a tee:


“The problem for you and others like you, Gert, is the continued existence of the Jew.”

http://madzionist.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html


“Well 'Gert' are you 46 or are you 42?

I don't think I will take lectures from a cerebrally challenged up-his-own-arse-moron who doesn't even appear to know his own age…

Yes - troll along like a good fellow.

By the way, Bridlington can be quite nice in the summer, but the wind can get a bit cold.

Property prices on your avenue are quite low - your busness can't be doing good.

I might be 'dumb', but I live in a house worth about 5 times the value of yours - and I'm not a 'Director' of my own company either - just think how rich I might be if I was !

Hopefully, your head will soon be so far up your own arse you will disappear.”

http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/02/luton-on-sunday-17th-february-2008.html


“How typically lefty of Gert to pretend to logical and moral superiority in order to dictate who gets to talk and who doesn't. What a complete and utter turd of a human being.”

http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/01/sword-of-truth_08.html


I can’t resist, lets hear from ‘Gert’s Daughter’ again:


“My father used to be normal. Now all he does is go on about hating Jews. He supports anyone who suggests killing them. I’m so ashamed of him.”

“I strongly advise against interacting directly with Gert. It is my professional opinion that he’s a fucking lunatic.”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/07/promoting-violent-extremism/


Oh how they mock you Gerty, how they mock you…

FJ said...

Well Gert, at least you and I both agree on the one state solution. The only thing we disagree over is to which religious group gets to be the dhimmi's. The Jews did their 1,000 years as dhimmi's under various Arab and Turkish dominated regimes, perhaps it's time to let the Pseudostinians bear that burder for the next 1,000.

The Pagan Temple said...

Most Arabs already are dhimmis to their respective rulers, as far as I'm concerned. What say does the average man on the street in the Arab world have over his life and destiny. He has to follow that damn book for the rest of his life. He doesn't have any choice, and if he feels differently, he'd better shut up about it.

The only power most Arab men have over their lives is what power they have over their families, which is why so many of the women suffer such abuse.

They all are forced to accede to a limited and as far as I'm concerned bigoted world view. We all suffer from that to an extent, but I am quite sure they take the prize for living under an oppressive and narrow-minded system.

Gert said...

Although the condition of subject 'Da Sentinel' has stabilised somewhat (he's now on Valium and a saline drip), he does occasionally still break out in nightsweats, shouting incomprehensible utterings about British Muslims, Aborigines, the virtues of South African Apartheid and Nazi German A-bombs, among other things.

At one point it was believed he was speaking in tongues but that turned out the recitations of garbled Internet URLs.

One reporter found out that Da Sentinel's blog is listed on a Judeophobia watchdog site under the rubric 'Jooooo Paranoid Internet Circus Freaks'.

Meanwhile the BNP has offered to hold a collection for any legal fees Da Sentinel might incur but it is highly unlikely any charges will be made. The cost of medical treatment of Sentinel's multiple genetic disorders will of course be borne by the NHS.

FJ said...

So, Gert, when's your annual competency hearing again? I'm sure they'd free you if only the victim's didn't always show up to testify.... maybe you could convince Danny to pay 'em a visit? I think that's about the only shot a getting out you've got.

The Sentinel said...

Oh dear, oh dear Gerty!

Your habitual descent into mental breakdown when faced with opposing opinions that you cannot shout down or shut up is legion. But never is that descent into mental break down so fast and so noticeable as when you are thoroughly defeated in a debate - its why you are known all over blogsphere as a celebrated internet clown.

I'm glad you have mentioned BEAJ again, because he is another one of hundreds who has witnessed your bizarre behaviour first hand and passed comment on it many times:


“I'm not going to ban you Gert. You are allowed to state your Moonbat views here. I don't mind.

I'm just pointing out that your behaviour here towards those with differing views has been very juvenile. Just a fact.”


“Gert, you started with the name calling just to let you know. It is getting out of hand.”


“Gert.. There isn't much chance the English can outbreed “them coloured bastards” (for someone who blames others of being racists you are full of colourfull terms aren't you).”

http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2008/10/elections-toronto-real-estate-prices.html


“Gert, you are a twisted demented individual.

As for me lying. Pulease, show my one lie. Just one.

And no need to complain to anyone. You aren't important.”


"Wow Gert. Thanks for telling me what I'm all about. You haven't a clue.

I notice that comments on your blog have gone south since you showed your viewers that you finally lost your sense of fairness and decency. And you have lost all but your lunatic fringe faithful…

You've lost it Gert. I'm surprised News From the West or David Duke hasn't taken any of your material yet.”

http://advant.blogspot.com/2009/01/fmr-clinton-special-counsel-lanny-davis.html


And of course he published your absolutely surreal trolling emails. What a disturbing insight into the warped mind of a 50 year old Belgian nut:



"“This comment is not for publication but FYE only. Please don't publish.


Bacon Eating Atheist Jew:

Me and some rightwing American friends are planning a raid on Sentinel's blog, nothing illegal or destructive, just some intellectual firepower, nothing more.

You have been invited by our band of pirates to join our effort in going after this anti-Semitic, racist pig..

If you're interested in joining the fray, contact me on gert_meyers@msn.com and I'll clue you up on the details.

Have a good day.

Gert.”

http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2007/03/young-earth-creationists-yecs-are.html


Oh how they mock you Gerty, how they mock you, and how easy you make it for them...

Gert said...

Shlomo Sands' book (and Israeli bestseller) is something that could bring this conversation at least half back on track. The comments make for most interesting read.

I subscribe to some of Sands' views and but am agnostic on of his other views.

He summarises his views here: Inerview with Sands on Israeli TV (YouTube)

Gert said...

What's the matter, Sentinel? Cat got your tongue?

Interesting thread over at Mondo, don't you think? All these Jewish Zionists and anti-Zionists and not one that subscribes to the idea of Jewry being a 'race' or 'ethnicity'!

'Bang' goes your theory, I guess...

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