Thursday, January 15, 2009

Fmr. Clinton Special Counsel Lanny Davis vs. Israeli Professor Neve Gordon: A Debate on the Israeli Assault on Gaza

Taken from here







AMY GOODMAN: Israeli troops are pushing deeper towards Gaza's towns and cities as thousands of Israeli reservists enter the conflict for the first time. Israeli warplanes continue to bombard targets across northern Gaza and in the town of Rafah on the southern border with Egypt. Meanwhile, Palestinian militants continue to fire rockets into southern Israel.

The Israeli military is continuing to surround Gaza City, and many residents in the outlying suburbs are moving into the city center. A Palestinian human rights group told The Guardian newspaper up to 90,000 Gazans, more than half of them children, had fled their homes across the territory. Israel and Egypt have refused to open their borders to allow Gazans to flee the fighting.

The death toll now stands at nearly 900 Palestinians, many of them civilian, including 275 children. Another 4,100 Palestinians have been injured. Thirteen Israelis have been killed, including three civilians hit by rocket fire and ten soldiers. Four of those soldiers died in friendly fire incidents.

Aid agencies are warning of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza with the territory's one-and-a-half million residents in urgent need of food and medical aid. The BBC reports the main hospital in Gaza is close to collapse with patients reportedly dying because of a lack of specialist doctors and basic medical equipment.

On Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the offensive was nearing its goals but that the assault will continue. Olmert also spoke out in defiance of the UN Security Council's call for an immediate ceasefire, saying, "Nobody should be allowed to decide for us if we are allowed to strike." Both Hamas and Israel have rejected the UN resolution. Meanwhile, talks between Hamas and Egyptian officials are continuing in Cairo.

We turn now to a debate on the issue. Attorney Lanny Davis is with us. He's a senior adviser and spokesperson for the Israel Project, former special counsel to President Clinton. He joins us from Washington, D.C. Joining us on the line from Beersheba, Israel is Neve Gordon. He's the chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. He is author of Israel's Occupation.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Lanny Davis, you're in full support of the Israeli invasion. Tell us why.

LANNY DAVIS: The right of self-defense. When terrorism kills innocent civilians intentionally, there isn't a civilized nation in the world that wouldn't attack back to try to prevent that terrorism. I use "terrorism" with a very specifically defined expression. When a party shoots to kill innocent civilians intentionally for a political purpose, including one's own citizens to be exposed to death for political purposes, that's terrorism. So I support the right of self-defense against terrorism, as any country would if this were happening, I believe. And the United States certainly would. If Rochester were being exposed to mortars and rockets from Montreal, I believe that the United States would not sit idly by and allow the Canadians to do that. So I think the first and most foremost right is the right of self-defense against terrorism, which is intentional killing of civilians.

AMY GOODMAN: And the issue proportionality, the number of people we've seen dead, close to 900 Palestinians, over 200 of them children, overwhelmingly civilian, versus the thirteen Israelis who have died, ten of them soldiers, four of them in friendly fire.

LANNY DAVIS: Yes, it's very disturbing that there are so many more deaths and suffering by innocent people in Gaza. I grieve and regret that as a human being, as an American, as a Jew who has supported a Palestinian state ever since I was a child and have been very critical through the years of the Israeli government not supporting a Palestinian state until just recently. So I grieve for those numbers, but I don't understand the word "disproportional."

Number one, if it was one child, if it was your child who was intentionally killed by a terrorist, and you asked your government to respond, and in order to respond, the people who launched the rockets placed their rockets among schoolchildren and innocent civilians deliberately—and that is an undisputed fact that Hamas has located its rocket launchers deliberately among civilians in schools, beneath hospitals—then that unfortunate and terrible tragic death of innocent civilians has to be more attributed to Hamas's calculated strategy of exposing its civilians to death, but certainly does not take away from my first statement of the horror and the grief of any innocent civilians, whether it's one child in Israel or a hundred children in Palestine or in Gaza. To me, they're equally tragic. There is no disproportionality. They're equally tragic.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Neve Gordon, you and your family have spent a good deal of time in a bomb shelter against the Hamas rockets in Ben-Gurion University, in the area around Ben-Gurion University where you live. You have called for the invasion to end now. Why?

NEVE GORDON: I would call for the invasion not to begin. We just had a rocket here about an hour ago, and the issue—I agree with some of what Lanny says. First of all, I agree with the idea of a basic right to self-defense. And the right to self-defense is a right to self-defense from violence. We have to understand that the occupation itself is violence. It's an act of violence. Putting people in a prison, in a prison of one million and a half million people and keeping them there for years on end without basic foodstuff, without allowing them to enter and exit when they will, is an act of violence. Without electricity, without clean water, it's all an act of violence. And these people are resisting. I am against the way they're resisting, but we have to look at their violence versus our violence.

About between ten and twenty people, Israelis, have died from rockets in the eight years that rockets have been launched from the Gaza Strip into Israel. During the same amount of time, 4,000 Israelis have died from car accidents. And yet, we don't see an outrage against the terrorism on the streets in Israel. But from these twenty people, we're allowed to enter into the Gaza Strip and bomb them from the air into their cage and kill 275 children. And Lanny says that it's not about disproportionality, but it is. Disproportionality is a term from international law. And by saying that he doesn't agree with it, he's defying international law.

And Israel has been defying international law and international agreements and international decisions from 1967, or probably from before. One of these decisions is that Israel must return these territories. And by maintaining and holding onto these territories through violent means, Israel is creating a situation where basically all the doors in the Gaza Strip are closed except one door. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, said it. Israel has closed all the doors in the Gaza Strip again, except for the mosque doors. We've closed the school doors. We've closed the economic doors. We've closed the medical doors. And so, and then we're surprised that we have to deal with Hamas.

So I think we need to change the hard drive, and the hard drive has to be that you don't solve things through violence. You solve things—you solve diplomatic issues, political issues through negotiations and talks. And it's about time that Israel sat down with Hamas and started negotiating with them. Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian people. We don't need to like them. I don't like them. But they are the elected government, and we need to sit down and talk with them and not bomb them.

AMY GOODMAN: Lanny Davis, your response?

LANNY DAVIS: Well, first of all, I appreciate—Professor Gordon and I probably have the same heart, and we probably have the same empathy, and we probably have the same goals of a two-state solution where people negotiate peace. And I appreciate Professor Gordon is sitting in a situation where his family is exposed to death, and I'm sitting safely here in Washington. So I don't mean to be judgmental, and I greatly respect what the professor just said, but I focus on facts, and I'm sorry to say that I must disagree with the professor's misstatement of certain facts, or omission might be also accurate.

Let's start with the international law issue. It is a violation of international law to deliberately launch rockets from within civilian areas. Article 53 of the Geneva Accords expressly says that. Yet the professor forgot to mention that. It is not a violation of international law to defend yourself if you're not intentionally targeting civilians. The Hamas is intentionally targeting civilians. The professor forgot to mention the distinction between defending yourself and tragically killing civilians in trying to find those who are launching missiles against you intentionally to kill civilians.

And finally and most importantly, I share the professor's desire for negotiations. And as I said, since I was a child, contrary to my father's strong views, I favored a Palestinian state, independent, and I still do. But Hamas's stated public objective is the destruction of Israel. There isn't a civilized country in the world that would sit across the table from a party that is launching terrorist—and it is defined as terrorism to intentionally kill civilians, as opposed to military. Nobody denies that's what Hamas is doing. And to sit across the table from an organization that says, "We will not recognize you. We want to destroy you, and we will use terrorism against your innocent children," is impossible. We did sit across the table from Fatah. We do have the beginnings of a negotiation with Mr. Abboud [sic.]. And we certainly do have the Fatah opposed to the terrorism of Hamas. After all, they were expelled by a military coup by Hamas.

So all of the issues that I believe the professor and I have in common, we should at least agree on basic facts, and the overwhelming one that I don't think the professor would deny is Hamas's aim is terrorism, to kill innocent civilians, and its objective is the destruction of Israel, not the recognition of Israel, not two states that can live side by side in peace.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Neve Gordon?

NEVE GORDON: The problem is the—yes, intentions are important, but the facts are more important. And the fact is that Israel is the one that's doing the harm to—much more harm to civilians than the Hamas ever did and ever will do. Israel has killed in the past two weeks 275 children, and not Hamas, regardless of the intentions. You mentioned the school. Israel is dealing with a propaganda war. Israel is the one that disseminated a video of Hamas shooting rockets from a school, a video that's almost two years old, claiming that the video was taken a day or two earlier. So Israel is in a propaganda war. Yes, the Hamas is fighting out from a civilian population, but Israel has the choice whether it's going to bomb the civilian population ore not, and it is intentionally deciding to bomb the civilian population. So in terms of intentionality in bombing areas where there are civilians, Israel is acting like a state terrorist. So, if your definition of terrorism doesn't take into account the identity of the actor—and state actors can also be terrorists—then when you bomb a school and when you bomb a university and when you bomb a neighborhood and you're killing much more civilians than militants, then you're doing something that is an act of terror.

And I have a problem. I think my views are pro-Israelis. I would like to see Israel existing in the Middle East sixty years down the line, and not only the first sixty years. And the only way for Israel to continue to exist in the Middle East is if it changes its approach towards the region and see itself as a leader of peace and not a belligerent actor in the region. And Israel has been living on the sword. Some of our neighbors have been living on the sword. But we have to come out and say we no longer want to live on the sword, because those who live on the sword, as the Bible tells us, also die on the sword. We have to come out and say we are willing to talk with our enemies, even with people that say that they do not believe in the existence of Israel. The PLO—you mentioned Fatah—the PLO said that they do not believe in the existence of Israel for many years. And ultimately, we sat down and talked with them, and they are now considered our Palestinian partner. I believe that if there is a pragmatic side, a strong pragmatic wing in Hamas, that if we start negotiation with them, over the years these people will also agree to the existence of Israel and be willing to live side by side with us. If we do not talk with them, if we continue this cycle of violence, ultimately Israel will be destroyed, because ultimately, the technological edge that we have over our neighbors will not be meaningful. So we have to change our approach. We have to be pro—by changing our approach, we're actually pro-Israeli. We say we want to see Israel a hundred years from now. And the only way we'll see Israel exist a hundred years from now is if Israel makes peace with Syria, with Lebanon and with the Palestinian people.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Neve Gordon and Lanny Davis, we're going to break, then come back. Then, we will be joined by Congress member Dennis Kucinich, speaking to us from Cleveland, one of five Congress members to vote against the resolution in support of Israel. And then we'll be speaking with Jewish women who are standing up to the Israeli invasion of Gaza, one in Toronto, one here in New York. A major protest is planned today outside the Israeli consulate at 5:00 in the afternoon. Lanny Davis is former attorney, former special counsel to President Clinton. He is currently an attorney, and he's a senior adviser and spokesperson for the Israel Project. Neve Gordon is in Beersheba in Israel, chair of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: Our guests are attorney Lanny Davis, senior adviser, spokesperson for the Israel Project in Washington, D.C., and Professor Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel, author of Israel's Occupation. I want to talk about why Israel invaded at this point. What is your understanding of this? They said Hamas broke the ceasefire. Professor Gordon, is that the reason you feel that this happened?

NEVE GORDON: Hamas did launch an incredible amount of rockets at the end of the ceasefire. Israel actually is a first actor that broke the ceasefire on November 1st, when it attacked in the Gaza—November 4th, when it attacked in the Gaza Strip.

I think the actual reasons have to do—the two major reasons—with rebuilding the reputation of the Israeli military after its humiliation in 2006 in Lebanon and the upcoming Israeli elections. Both Labor and Kadima, the two out of the three major parties, were behind in the polls against BB Netanyahu's Likud, who was blaming them of being soft on the Palestinians. And I think the timing, in terms of the elections, which are on February 10th, was perfect to show that Kadima and Labor, that are in party, know how to be tough on the Palestinians. And in fact, already in the polls we see that Labor has added almost 50 percent to what it had before the war began. So I think there's some cynical political issues and reputation issues that played a dramatic part in initiating this war.

I think that Hamas also acted—or miscalculated and acted totally wrong, that it launched the rockets on Israel. I think, strategically and morally, it was a mistake. But I'm not sure Israel had to react through such a war. I think through diplomatic means it could have been stopped.

AMY GOODMAN: Lanny Davis, are you concerned about the blockade not only on the Palestinians, but also on information? The New York Times, the BBC, Reuters, CNN have all filed a complaint with the Israeli prime minister not allowing international press into Gaza. Why do you think Israel is not allowing press in?

LANNY DAVIS: Well, first of all, I don't want to duck your latter question, because I'm in favor of greater media going into Gaza so they can report the facts rather than false reporting. I'd like to get back to that.

But let me start with your use of your word "blockade." That's an inaccurate or at least a biased word. I don't say that you intended it that way, but it is. There is a blockade of tunnels and any other means of access that the Hamas has used to allow the import of these rockets from Iran. This is an Iranian-subsidized operation, just like Hezbollah. And yet, 165 trucks of humanitarian, medical, food aid went into Gaza yesterday from Israel. It is the Egyptians that have blocked access. You must ask the Egyptian government, "Why are you blocking access?" Because they know these tunnels have been used by Hamas not to resupply their people with food and medical aid, but with rockets who are placed among civilians, next to schools, under hospitals, to kill civilians in Israel. So "blockade" is really, I think, a word that needs to be changed. It's a selective blocking of terrorist war instruments that are being supplied primarily by Iran, and the Egyptian government has the ability to open those tunnels, and they see the same danger as does Israel.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me put that question—

LANNY DAVIS: On the issue—

AMY GOODMAN: Just one sec—on the issue of the blockade to Professor Neve Gordon, which predates the Israeli invasion, the total blockade of Gaza that many people have been challenging around the world. Can you explain what that blockade is, Professor Gordon?

NEVE GORDON: Well, since Hamas was elected into government in a democratic election, Israel decided basically to economically boycott the Palestinian people, and particularly Hamas and the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip, and is basically controlling all the borders and deciding who can enter and who can leave and what can enter and what can leave. And it is actually allowing a certain amount of humanitarian aid, and it's allowing this humanitarian aid, according to Israel's own claims, in order that there won't be a humanitarian catastrophe. So, basically, Israel is saying, "We'll allow 165 trucks so there won't be a humanitarian catastrophe, so we can continue the war against Hamas." So it's a kind of new war ethics, a war ethics that you're fighting against not another military, but militants in an armed wing of an organization that are within the civilian population, and so you're basically attacking the civilian population, and you're saying, "We don't want a catastrophe to happen, so we can continue attacking you." There's something very cynical about it and something horrific about it.

And so, actually, there has been a blockade on Gaza, and it's been a very severe blockade on Gaza. And even Israel claims that there's been a blockade on Gaza and saying that Israel allows humanitarian assistance to enter so it can continue bombing them is very, very cynical.

LANNY DAVIS: Let's agree on a basic fact here. Ms. Goodman, you used the expression "absolute blockade" a second time after I said the first use of your expression "blockade" was inaccurate or imbalanced. So I would like to suggest that you at least say "partial blockade," because it is not aimed at anything other than preventing munitions and rockets coming in from Iran. That's a fact. And ask the government of Egypt whether they agree. Secondly—

NEVE GORDON: If a Palestinian wants to import a car—

LANNY DAVIS: Professor, professor, let me just—let me just make one other point.

NEVE GORDON: —a car, he can't import the car. If a Palestinian wants to import a cow, he can't import a cow.

LANNY DAVIS: I really—I really wanted to interrupt you badly, but I appreciate you have a lot to say, and I'd like you to allow me to finish.

I am very surprised that you don't start with the fact that we agree on: all Hamas has to do is stop sending terrorist rockets aimed at civilians—you've never disagreed with me on that; we agree on that—and make peace with Israel. That's all they have to do, the same way that Mr. Abboud [sic.] and the Fatah have done in the West Bank, which is flourishing.

And secondly, most importantly, the occupation ended. In 2005, Israel took all of its troops out. Faced with a state or a terrorist state or a government that says, "I'm trying to destroy you, and I'm going to send rockets to kill your civilians," is the reason why the economic boycott, as you call it, would occur in any civilized country in the world. If Canada or Mexico had a destruction objective of the United States and were launching rockets against Houston or against Boston—if you think the United States or any other country in the world would allow that to happen without at least economic boycott while allowing humanitarian aid, then I would beg to differ with you.

On the media, Ms. Goodman, I—

AMY GOODMAN: Lanny Davis, we began with you—I just—we're going to have to wrap up because we're headed to Dennis Kucinich.

LANNY DAVIS: OK. Well, just a quick comment on the media, which I didn't answer. I think that there ought to be more exposure, and there should be more openness with the media. I think Israel is moving in that direction. I certainly think that the propaganda, for example, a false report that an Israeli tank shot on a UN convoy, took forty-eight hours for the United Nations spokesperson who put that statement out to say, "Well, I'm not so sure." That was a forty-eight hour time gap. Everybody still believes it happened, because the withdrawal of the statement or the modification of the statement didn't get the front-page headlines that the statement did.

So we have to be very careful that when we get our media into Gaza, that we get people who are objective reporting the facts as to where are these missiles. Are they under schools? Are they in hospitals? And if so, is that an act that is a violation and a war crime in and of itself? That's why I want the media in Gaza, to prove the war crimes being committed by Hamas are where they're placing their rockets.

AMY GOODMAN: Lanny Davis, we began with you; we will end with Professor Neve Gordon in Beersheba.

NEVE GORDON: I have two comments to make, one related to protest in media. 700 Israelis have been arrested since this war began, because they protested this war. This has not made it to an international media, and it's an act of intimidation by the state against those who protest the war.

Second, regarding what Lanny said, that no country would allow another country to bomb its citizens, he's right. He forgets one essential fact, and that is the occupation. And Gaza was not—is still under occupation, because Israel controls all of its borders, and the West Bank is under occupation, and East Jerusalem is under occupation. And the act—the first, the initial, the primordial act of violence is the occupation. The rockets are a reaction to that act of violence. And so, we have to keep in mind that within—it's not between a state and another state. It's been between an occupier and an occupied.

AMY GOODMAN: We will leave it there. Professor Neve Gordon in Beersheba, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. He is author of Israel's Occupation. Lanny Davis, senior adviser and spokesperson for the Israel Project, attorney and former special counsel to President Clinton. Thank you both for being with us.

LANNY DAVIS: Thank you so much.

MarxistFromLebanon

160 comments:

The Pagan Temple said...

I don't know where to begin with the Professor's nonsense, so I'll just condense my reactions with the observation that he's as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. So Hamas in under "occupation". Gee, no shit. Does anybody have a clue as to why they're under occupation. I have this strange idea that it's because the Palestinian leaders, beginning under Arafat and on through today wit Hamas, seem to never fail to find an opportunity to attack Israeli civilians.

Would somebody like to address how Arafat acquired leadership through the PLO over the Palestinian cause? From whom did he receive his funding? Ren, please don't tell me it was the Israelis.

Would somebody like to comment on how Arafat and the PLO were more and less single-handedly responsible for Lebanon descending into the chaos of a bloody civil war which raged for years, when they were finally graced with the gift of asylum from the Lebanese. That was how they repaid them, by using their territory as a base for their damnable operations. Lebanon has not yet recovered.

This is in large measure the reason why the Palestinian people are contained within a few areas and not allowed the freedom of movement they claim. Whenever you see them coming, best to lock your doors, while you still have a wall to close them up against.

That's why Egypt won't let them in, and that's why they are unwelcome anywhere else in the Arab world. Yes, they are a nation of hostages, but Israel is not the jailer. They exist in a prison of their own making. What you are seeing is not a nation rebelling. What you are seeing is an overgrown prison riot, with the warden and prison guards not trying to contain it, but encourage it.

Until all of these issues are addressed openly and honestly, all such debates such as this are pointless, and even inhumane.

My major disappointment though was the lack of an appearance by the Little Smurf From Cleveland, as promised by Goodman. He would at least have provided some degree of comic relief.

K. said...

Lanny Davis' sophistry is appalling. It would be nice to hear an actual discussion of this matter rather than one person having to deal with the other;s propaganda.

Word verification: fartines

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Let me get this straight Pagan,

You actually believe that the 1080 killed in Gazza are "self-defense" and you do believe like a pethatic lamb that those peace treaties were real without accompanied with bulldozers?

Wake up and smell the coffee, Olmert is the equivalent of Milosevic

MFL

troutsky said...

Pagan hears what he wants to hear. Not bothering to learn any re-constructed history,he can only deal in modern dominant narrative.Try Palestine Inside Out by Saree Makdisi or The Iron Cage by Rashid Khalidi. Going beyond the sophistry of "Arafat this" or Hamas that" and tackling the roots of the problem is the only way forward.

Mad Zionist said...

If Israel was being led by the right people, there would be not a single dead or wounded arab in Gaza, nor a single rocket fired from Gaza into Israel, nor a single Jew terrorized by arabs from Gaza, because there would be no arabs left in Gaza.

Transfer = Peace.

Anything less, and I do mean every single other solution I've read here and elsewhere, only perpetuates war and terror. I say this over, and over, and over again, and nobody ever can provide a successful alternative solution that would end the violent territorial dispute between arabs and Jews.

Every act of terror by the arabs is a direct result of Israel's unwillingness to end the dispute with transfer. Every war Israel must fight is a direct result of their unwillingness to end the dispute with transfer. This war is nonsense, the fighting is nonsense, the wars in Lebanon were nonsense, the expulsion of the Jews from Gaza was nonsense, and all future violent conflicts will be tragic nonsense, too.

The crux of what will bring peace is never addressed, never discussed, and all that is left is the intentional, perpetual violent conflict between arab and Jew because of it.

Give peace a chance: Annex the territories, repatriate the arabs, and finalize the borders once and for all.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Ah, Mad Zionist still writes? I thought I trashed him the last time?

Transfer = Genocide = Remember the Holocaust? Or only the Jews are entitled to say Holocaust happened on them? Or they are entitled to do into others without any questioning?

Peace will never take place by a country forged by ethnic cleansing, Palestine is not a birth-right to 'Jews', it was for everyone...

Such peace you promote hurts the Jews worse than the Arabs... it is not peace, it is insanity... MZ, you are officially the Nazi version, but from a Jewish instead of Aryan persective... Any none Jew is a a second class creature...eh?

Tell me, how does it feel that Israel's entire existance depends on the US, and furthermore, people joke that the US should add an extra star on their flag for Israel as their little B***h :)

Oh still superstitious as well on the pethatic book of Torah that is a prophecy? 'Might of Israel' you called it from God? That is more insane than Ahmadinejejad

Till racists are eradicated and people live equally...

MFL

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Troutsky

I know Rachid Khalidi :)
He is also excellent in red wine... tough competitor...

As a matter of fact, check Walid Khalidy as well :)

Mad Zionist said...

Oh, and Moron from Lebanon is back with his pre-school logic, education and intellect. Being 6 years old, I assume there's still time for you to lose the bigotry, become reasoned, and express yourself as an adult.

Time will tell...

Anyway, consider yourself ignored, as I don't debate clueless children. Good luck with puberty!

The Pagan Temple said...

I still haven't heard a good reason why Israel should deal with Hamas or for that matter Fatah in "good faith"" when at least one of those entities calls in their charter for the dissolution of the state of Israel. How can any nation be expected to deal in good faith with an entity that calls for its destruction?

By the way, MLF, what kind of peace deals did Milosevic offer the Bosnian Muslims? What was the extent of his "two-state solution" with them? I don't seem to recall any such thing discussed with them. Milsosevic wanted to kill them all.

Yes, those 1080 dead are the direct result of Israeli defensive actions, but more to the point, they are properly laid at the door of Hamas, who stores weapons, and operates them, from a base of civilians, not only in homes, but in schools, and hospitals, and by the way in UN owned and operated buildings and headquarters. Which you know all of this good and damn well.

Why does the UN permit this? Could it be because they have no power to prevent it? Why then are they relevant? They are tools. I cordially invite them to shut the fuck up about this matter.

Why does no one address my question? Why does Egypt not open their borders and allow the refugees access on humanitarian grounds? If that is too many for Egypt to handle, why do they not allow them to be processed in part to Lebanon, to Syria, to Libya, etc?

My, could it be because those countries, including Egypt, want nothing to do with them? More to the point, I suggest they want nothing to do with Hamas.

I think those countries have been "smelling the coffee" long before the stench ever drifted my way.

Eliminate these murderous bums and maybe some progress will be made. Otherwise you are just going to keep seeing dead Palestinian children. Blaming Israel is a cliche'. You are being used.

Troutsky-reconstructed history? We have a name for that kind of "history" over here. The proper term is "revisionist".

I do want to thank you and MLF though for responding. It's a pleasure to debate somebody that can string a sentence together and actually speak in proper English.

At least I don't have to read over what you've written three times before I can see just how wrong you are (to say nothing of being able to tell what the shit you're talking about).

Mad Zionist said...

Predictably, I will not receive a single cogent counter argument or alternative plan for peace, accept the one that I presented of course.

Pagan, it's awfully interesting to note the lack of ideas and solutions from the left, isn't it? Just occasional blathering about a Mystical Utopia, where everyone lives in harmony and collective love...nothing real, nothing concrete at all.

The Pagan Temple said...

Yeah, I know MZ, just same ol', same ol'.

Just imagine what they'd say if, for example, Israeli state tun television produced a children's show called "Zionists of Tomorrow" hosted by a preteen Israeli girl and featuring live-action cartoon characters preaching hatred of Palestinians to young Jewish children. It would be a site to hear them carrying on and denouncing them about it.

Still waiting to hear why Israel should negotiate with Hamas, or with any other entity that openly calls for their destruction, and then goes about causing the death of their own populations in pursuance of those ends.

Renegade Eye said...

MFL: Thank you for posting this.

I seriously believed you were captured by Hezbollah.

I was reading "Spiked Online." I have big disagreements with them. They always have ideas different than others. They say the worst thing that happened to Gaza was "The Road Map To Peace." They describe it as outside imperialist meddling. Out of Oslo came the wall, and the corrupt Palestine leadership. I don't see how the proposed Palestinian state is viable. In this epoch it is not the time to form a weak, dependent state. It's not 1700, when feudalism is dying.

The 1905 Russian revolution started as a movement by Catholic priests, peacefully presenting demands to the Czars. The movement was religious. Overnight it changed to a secular, socialist movement. The same will happen in Palestine.

MZ: This is my immediate program. I posted it an earlier post.

An immediate cessation of hostilities by the Israeli military against the population of Gaza
An immediate lifting of the crippling economic blockade, to allow free movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza
An end to the futile terrorist attacks on the civilian population of Sderot; the leadership of the resistance must arm the Palestinian masses and organise regional defence committees in every city, town and village
Support for the suffering masses of Gaza by the Israeli labour movement – no cooperation with the Israeli war machine
For a Socialist Federation of the Middle East


Pagan: I think even MZ would agree with me on this. This war isn't to topple Hamas. It is to do, just as the professor said, to do with Israeli elections, and stopping Likud.

How many times do you need to be told, you don't fight guerilla wars in isolation. You swim amongst the people, like in the sea.

Hamas is the elected government. It was trusted by Israel, when Fatah was radical. Believe me if socialist leadership comes to Gaza, Hamas will be Israel's best friend.

Troutsky:In terms of states, Israel is young. Much can change.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: We know Hamas is reactionary. They sound like MZ when he calls Palestinians vermin.

Still waiting to hear why Israel should negotiate with Hamas, or with any other entity that openly calls for their destruction, and then goes about causing the death of their own populations in pursuance of those ends.

Destroy Israel with what? They are obviously not making destroying Israel a goal. They are irritating Israel, not threatening.

Israel faces no external threats from anyone.

Tell me one serious threat to israel's existence? I'm not talking rhetoric. Tell me a real threat?

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

I agree that the main reason for the war has to do with the upcoming Israeli elections. That is just too bad. My point is they should go all out and take this opportunity to end this.

I disagree with you about the nature of a secular political movement being anathema to the Israelis. I think they would welcome such a development. Israel is basically a secular nation with a secular government after all. Additionally, they are more a left-of-center government than right-of-center.

I also understand your point about the nature of guerrilla warfare. My point is, when guerrilla warfare is conducted, one shouldn't be shocked at the consequences. Outsiders certainly have no legitimate complaints.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Like Olmert, Milosevic butchered in the name of self-defense, well his protege Karadzic, and further more he did sign the Dayton Agreement which still stands to this very day while denying the Bosnian Serbs their spoils... furthermore Milosevic, unlike Olmert, got what he deserved for his direct attrocities in Kosovo...

and if you agree Milosevic was butchering, then you agree the Israelis are butchering as well and they are mass murderers, at least the IDF and its leadership. Furthermore, launching a war based on elections is even worse than inventing a cause.

What kind of peace is there with a country that was established on the blood of others, racism, and ethnic cleansing. Any peace deal if you closely monitored the media, and I do not mean CNN, you would notice the nice bulldozers expelling people out, doing random shoot-out, and forcing the Palestinians to live in poverty and humilation (but of course you regard them as lesser than humans, you and your lunatic friend MZ).

Rockets came out as a reaction to the blockade, but also you would go with the Oriental look of Hamas militants being bombed. Tell me if the UN twice were bombed so far by the IDF, what does it tell you about normal citizens, where the UN itself called it an attrocity? Or suddenlthe UN is anti-semite as well?

MZ, your logic of peace is that of an insane madman... no wonder your own thoughts are a minority among the zionists themselves. Ethnically eradicating an entire race for peace because in your opinion they do not deserve to live makes you a Hitler what he did to the Jews, and funny, an Arab like me defends what happened to the Jews then... because I am sane and objective, not a follower of a pethatic book based on superstition called the Torah...

Pagan, I just pity you for being the victim of the media and not seeing the 10s of bodies stashed above each other, or the mothers of kids wheeping, that is your Israel, a racist country that tries to promote itself as 'democratic'....
MFL 2 - MZ 0

Mad Zionist said...

Ren, thank you for attempting to provide a solution, but as you'll see from my breakdown it offers dreams without substance.

An immediate cessation of hostilities by the Israeli military against the population of Gaza

OK, but that certainly won't bring about an end to the conflict.

An immediate lifting of the crippling economic blockade, to allow free movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza

You realize that if they are separate nations they must have protected borders that are closely checked just like every other country. Does Israel have an open border with Syria or Lebanon? No, and considering the terror Israel faces from the arabs it's simply an insane idea to suggest free movement between Sharia Gaza (yes, it has been implemented) and Israel.

An end to the futile terrorist attacks on the civilian population of Sderot

Wishing it to stop doesn't make it stop. Why should they listen? They deny Israel's right to exist and claim the land belongs to them, so what makes you think for a minute they'll voluntarily renounce their claims and stop firing missiles?

The leadership of the resistance must arm the Palestinian masses and organise regional defence committees in every city, town and village.

Arming the arab people to the teeth, and organizing them in every town, will inspire them to stop attacking Israel?

Support for the suffering masses of Gaza by the Israeli labour movement – no cooperation with the Israeli war machine
For a Socialist Federation of the Middle East


Are you serious? A Labor movement magically seizing power in Israel and forming some kind of Socialist Federation in the Middle East??

Ren, Ren, Ren...if Israel just humanely returns these long-suffering arabs to their surrounding arab countries, and repatriates them with financial and humanitarian assistance, the conflict ends, the dispute is resolved, Israel has permanent, viable borders, and everybody lives happily ever after.

Give peace a chance.

The Pagan Temple said...

MFL-

There is no valid comparison to Ohlmert and Mislosevic as far as their aims and methods go. If Mislosevic were in Ohlmert's place you would be screaming not about 1080 deaths, but at least ten times that many by now-at the very least. He was genuinely going after ethnic cleansing, and had some rationale for doing so.

I know people from that area. It is not all one-sided. The only reason the US got involved in that mess was because the Europeans-surprise, surprise-couldn't deal with it on their own, as is usually the case.

Furthermore, they didn't give a shit about the people being killed, they merely did not want tens of thousands of Albanian refugees streaming into their countries. Thus, they called on us, as they usually do when they find themselves in a jam.

You will note I referred to these potential refugees as Albanians. That is what they were. They've been incrementally taking over vast areas of the Balkans for some time now. They move in and try to force the previous native populations out, by force. What Mislosevic did was a reaction to this historical fact. I don't condone his methods, but that is the truth.

At any rate, comparing him and Ohlmert is like comparing an apple to a pomegranate.

I never called the Palestinians scum, at least not lately. I admit there have been times in the not-too-distant past when I descended to that level, but this was merely a visceral reaction to seeing scenes of Palestinians dancing with joy in the streets when they learned my own country was attacked on 9/11.

I have learned to put scenes like that in context. I have moved on. It would seem to be yourself who is anchored to the past where an evil Zionist entity is presumed to be following the will of a corrupt, decadent imperialistic power and brutally enslaving and murdering an indigent population led by those whose crimes you all too easily gloss over in furtherance of the scenario you have attached yourself to.

As for MZ, I will let him defend himself, but I never heard him suggest that people should be murdered in pursuit of ethnic cleansing. He suggests relocating them, which I think would be good, though impractical. He deals with the world the way he thinks it should be, I deal first and foremost with the cards that have been dealt.

Think about it. What's so damned important about Gaza and the West Bak. Nobody who lost their homes back in the day are alive now. What is so horrible about the thought of compensating current heads-of-households and allowing them to live their lives in other places?

I'll tell you what is so bad about it.

1. It takes away a cause from people with a vested interest in disrupting what they perceive as a US puppet.

2. It takes power away from the "leaders" whose only true agenda is drawing vast sums of money through international agencies, as well as private and government donors, and of course religious-based ones.

3. No legitimate Arab/Muslim government wants them in their territories. The reason they don't want them? Refer to number two.

Try a little experiment sometime. Casually bring up in conversation the idea that you think it would be good if your government would allow some Palestinians to move into your country, on a humanitarian basis, and to do so permanently if they so desire, with the possibility of becoming Lebanese citizens someday.

In fact, bring this up in conversation with quite a few of your friends and neighbors. If nothing else, it might be a good way for you to draw a good sized disability check. Of course, the bad thing is, you might end up really needing it.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren, the Palestinians were deported already once to Lebanon, from Jordan by King Hussein in the early 70's after he killed off about 20,000 of them first, and they were put in borderline concentration camps by the Lebanese who treated them like sub-vermin.

Considering there is absolutely no cultural, religious, or language differences between Lebanese arabs, Syrian arabs, and Jordanian arabs the best comparison would be if English speaking Canadians in Ontario were transported to America as part of a peace plan should war break out with French Quebec.

How difficult would that assimilation be? I managed to move from New York State to Florida before without incident, and that's more of a change than moving the arabs out of the territories should Israel wake up and annex them like they should.

Of course, let's see how well the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese would treat their imported brethren...if history is any indication, the Palestinians would be better off living in Israeli garbage dumps by comparison.

Look at the way the arabs in Gaza were treated by Egypt before Israel took the territories...they are living in luxurious splendor today by comparison. The "Palestinian" arabs in Jordan were treated like rotting animal dung by the Hashemite Kingdom in comparison to how they've lived under Israeli pseudo-control.

The only thing that Israel is doing by keeping these gypsy arabs hanging around as terrorist thorns is perpetuate proxy war on behalf of the surrounding countries that want to deflect the people's anger away from their own corrupt regimes. The minute Israel ends that canard, annexes the land and repatriates the "Palestinian" arabs, gives them an identity, financial assistance and the dignity of being real citizens of a real country, the better for all involved.

The other countries will work towards making this happen WITH Israel if Israel would only start talks along those lines instead of the sham of dealing with phonies like Abbas.

The Pagan Temple said...

MZ-

I think that would probably have happened long ago, but the major hang-up is Jerusalem and the mosque there. Dome Of The Rock, I think it's called if I am not mistaken. Then there is something about an "Al-Aqsa" mosque, which I don't know if they are the same or not.

Which brings me to yet another point. "The Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade", an Arafat creation, was also a fundamentalist operation was it not? So this madness extends to well beyond Hamas.

Then there Palestinian Islamic Jihad. You haven't heard much from them lately. Perhaps they have folded into one or the other remaining entities, or even split and folded into both of them.

I have to say I do agree with Ren on one point. The Palestinians should be armed, but that is because I believe in the right of all people to bear arms for their own defense. The Israelis could control them if they got out of hand. I have an idea that if they were armed, a lot of these thugs like Hamas and Fatah would get the boot real quick.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Dear Pagan

Think of it in reverse,

Why we should move the Palestinians in the first place from their homes, as far as i remember, 92% of the Jews in Israel came in the 20th Century (according to the British Mandate from 1919 - 1948), furthermore, unlike the Palestinians who lack double nationality except in Jordan, they have no nationality, the only one they had was taken from them by force in 1948.

Now I admit, at first I thought you were a religious fanatic like MZ, but now, I go back to my academic mode with you.

I lived in Lebanon for 30 years, the reason why the Palestinians came to Lebanon was due to the fact that Israel was established at the expense of their homes, where they then were a minority and expelled them gradually by the Zionists. I fail to understand why you cannot condemn the attrocity of that, unless you regard one 'race' superior to another. Second, condemning an entire race of people, the Palestinians, based few leadership that were corrupt, like the PLO, doesn't justify the acts of attrocities, and definitely do not allow Zionists to butcher Palestinian Christians and Muslims out of their homes. If my memory serves me right, CNN actually placed a video of 9/11 impact on Lebanon, and showed a footage of Shiites and Palestinians dancing, which turned out to be a year old from 9/11, and CNN didn't apologize for that crap. Finally, I wouldn't blame the Palestinians for being happy because the US blindly supports Israel without placing any control on them.

Actually, you are refering to Milosevic reacting to what the Albanians did, and the world reacted to prevent a complete ethnic cleansing. That took place in Palestine in 1948, that is why I am drawing comparison between Kosovo of 1998 and Palestine 1948. The people of Kosovo (both Servs and Albanians) were victims to nationalist elites, it doesn't mean that All Serbs or ALL Albanians are rotten... the same is applied on the Palestinians, who in the first place were ousted out of their homes, suffered on-going racism, drove some of them to fanaticism because they are treated by racists as B-Citizens.

The scenario is real, Zionists did come in thousands from 1920s and onwards to expel the Palestinians, or else explain to me how every European Jew (among other Jews) have dual nationality? What expelling the Palestinians elsewhere? If that is not evil, then what do you call it? God sent like MZ by the book of Torah? Or the fact some people regard themselves superior to others and worthy to expel others. It is the same as Serbian fanatics who argue that the current descendants of Muslims over there (and btw I am not a Muslim) carry the blood of the traitors from the Battle of Kosovo, six centuries earlier? Now isn't that a bit insane? Even more insane, you support the death of Palestinians? Dude, this is their home, you cannot go for racial reasons to say, kick them out... I repeat that is a Milosevic tactic which you are trying your best to seperate from Olmert's or even Ben Gurion who did the ethnic cleansing back then ... in the words of the Zionist founder Herzl himself, the Zionists aim to capture Palestine and expel its inhabitants... so if these words are not satisfactory, then you are too blind to look at the truth...

The PLO when they were expelled by Jordan for too much activities, they went to Lebanon, and devised a seperate political entity within, this doesn't mean every Palestinian is blamed for it, again, following the genetic formula makes you as bad as Hitler, whether you like it or not. Remember, 50% of the Lebanese welcomed them, and 50% opposed them,and they acted as a catalyst for bringing a civil war that was doomed to come in the first place.

As humanitarian issues, Lebanon has the highest number of refugees who barely have the basic human needs, and cannot find work due to the small size of a little country like Lebanon. How about allowing them to return home, practice their right of return, while you can be objective and condemn the butchery of citizens... now the Palestinians will blame Israel and the USA for its infinite support without any accountability, surprised? You should be, my Palestinian Christian relatives already hate the US, even though I promote anti-racism and how to form informative networks against the Administration's fallacies.

As for MZ

Your historical stupidity never seizes to surprise me, don't you know that 80% of Jordan (even speculations even go more) are Palestinians expelled from their homes?

It wasnt the Jordanian King who holds the highest number of citizens, it is Israel that is Nazi like in its approach...

Phonies like Abbas were bought by the US and Israel... believe it... Israel already annexed anyone, and in case you didn;t figure that out, Jews are humans, equal to Christians and Muslims, it is Zionism that broke that formula... I find it fun how you find it fit for one people to expel others, dude, you are a Nazi version for the Jews... people like you are racists, and such ideologies, like the Nazis, won't last. As a matter of fact, freaks like you are probably the smallest minority among the Jews, I bet the Communist and Socialist Jews are more than your freakish religious kind...

MFL 4 - MZ -1 (due to historic ignorance :P)

MarxistFromLebanon said...

This is a classical case of Orientalism:

http://www.boell-meo.org/download_en/traboulsi.pdf

Mad Zionist said...

A classic dose of reality for the ignorant, the stupid, the bigoted, and the dishonest.

History of Palestine

Liberal White Boy said...

I'm jumping into this late. Is Mad Zionist talking about his clan here? It sounds like it.

Hamas And The Desperate People of Palestine...A Recent History

If anyone told me years ago that I would be writing a post defending an Islamic group like Hamas, I would have told them they were out of their mind. How things have changed. As the people of Gaza are being slaughtered by Apartheid Israel, Hamas seems to be getting a lot of bad press. I thought it might be useful to write a more recent history of Hamas. Rest assured you will never see this history provided in the American press. And I’m not going to go too far back, because if I do, I will have to mention not only Hamas' terrorist acts but those of the founders of Apartheid Israel in the creation of their stolen state and their never ending terrorism since. Of course no one wants to talk about that. That would be anti-Semitic.

First of all, we hear alot about the Hamas credo, you know the destruction of Israel, setting up a Muslim state and all of that stuff. I imagine that if I had had my land stolen and had been subjected to Zion-fascist tyranny for decades, I probably would also have put together a rather strongly worded document to let my captors and others know my feelings. God forbid that I should in any way come across as hateful to those who had subjected me to endless humiliation and indignity.

I will start my recent history with the 2006 Hamas election victory. This victory followed the decades of political ineptness and corruption by it’s chief rival Fatah. Here is what an Israeli newspaper reported as one of their first acts.

A few months after Hamas' 2006 election victory, leader Ismail Haniyeh tried to start a dialogue with U.S. President George W. Bush. Haaretz has obtained a written message from Haniyeh sent to Bush via an American professor who met with Haniyeh in the Gaza Strip. Haniyeh asked Bush to lift the boycott of the Hamas government and pressure Israel to maintain stability in the region. On June 6, 2006, Haniyeh met Dr. Jerome Segal of the University of Maryland in the Gaza Strip.


...At the time of the meeting, Hamas was trying to establish its three-month-old government under an international boycott. The Quartet for Middle East peace had called on the organization to recognize Israel, disavow terror and honor existing agreements. At the end of the meeting, Haniyeh dictated a short message he asked Segal to transmit to President Bush. Haniyeh spoke Arabic and Youssuf translated his words into English. Segal took down the letter in his notebook and Haniyeh and Youssuf both signed it.


Haniyeh wrote in the missive, "We are an elected government which came through a democratic process." In the second paragraph, Haniyeh laid out the political platform he maintains to this day. "We are so concerned about stability and security in the area that we don't mind having a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and offering a truce for many years," he wrote.


Haniyeh called on Bush to launch a dialogue with the Hamas government. "We are not warmongers, we are peace makers and we call on the American government to have direct negotiations with the elected government," he wrote.


Haniyeh also urged the American government to act to end the international boycott "because the continuation of this situation will encourage violence and chaos in the whole region." Upon his return to the U.S. several days later, Segal gave State Department and NSC officials the original letter. In his own letter, Segal emphasized that a state within the 1967 borders and a truce for many years could be considered Hamas' de facto recognition of Israel. He noted that in a separate meeting, Youssuf suggested that the Palestinian Authority and Israel might exchange ambassadors during that truce period. This was not the only covert message from Hamas to senior Bush administration officials. However, Washington did not reply to these messages and maintained its boycott of the Hamas government.


Although Haaretz indicates Washington did not reply, it did respond, with its usual bad faith and treachery inspired by Israel's Zionist minions within the Bush Administration.

Shortly there after, Deputy National Security Advisor, Zion-fascist Elliott Abrams met with a group of Palestinian business men and discussed the violent overthrow of the the Hamas leadership with arms supplied by the United States. In the months that followed, the United States supplied guns, ammunition and training to Palestinian Fatah activists to take on Hamas in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas was victorious in Gaza and its control reestablished. Thus another misadventure (and there were many)conceived by war criminal Elliot Abrams, turned to shit. And now not surprisingly everything that Haniyeh warned our Presidential Stooge about has come to pass.


But America's fraudulent media did not report this either. Nor have they reported that since Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people that for the most part the Palestinians held their fire. They held their fire even after being imprisoned within their own borders, starved and denied humanitarian supplies while choked off from the rest of the world. That is the recent history of Hamas.

The Pagan Temple said...

MFL-

If we were having this discussion sixty years ago, I would probably mostly agree with you. But we are not having it then, of course, we are having it now. It's time to move on.

Right of return? For whom? For what reason? To what end? This nonsense has got to stop. For better or worse, rightly or wrongly, this has already been decided. Your people lost. They didn't have to, but they made the decision to not accede to the division of Palestine as it was set up by the UN. They had a chance for their country, and refused.

Incidentally, had they accepted, it would have been the first time those people would have been an independent nation in their own right. They were Ottoman subjects prior to that. They never had a nation independent in their own right. When given the opportunity, they turned it down.

Now they are gone. The people who were ejected from Palestine, due mainly to their own stubbornness and hatred, I might add, are mostly dead and gone. Most of the Palestinians living today were born years after the historical dispersion of their fathers and grandfathers. Their claims to the land are tentative at best. Strike that, they have no claims at all to it.

Nor do they have any intention of living in peace with the Jews were they ever given this right of return. That is plain to see. They need to stop listening to people like Hamas and Fatah, who have led them around by the nose and made asses of them. Arafat turned your country, one of the showcase centers of the Arab world, into a place of hellish suffering. Why in the hell do you defend people such as this?

You claim you are not a Muslim, but I'm not so sure. You are probably not an observant Muslim, but I think the call works from deep within your subconscious. I think it is working like some kind of primal urge inside your psyche. Think about it. How do you feel when you hear the call to prayer? Does it speak to you on some level?

That has to be it, either that or you are falling into some kind of subconscious racial line. That is understandable, and in fact, that is the only explanation for your most curious attitude about this controversy.

The nation of Israel is here, and it is here to stay, and you have to expect they are going to protect their national sovereignty. A child can see this, so why then can you not do so?

When I said that I had moved beyond my anger at their gleeful reactions to 9/11, I was by no means excusing it. I was merely making the attempt to understand it for what it was-an emotional reaction and release of pent-up anger and frustration. I processed it and moved on.

Now, if the Palestinian people truly want peace and want to build a life for their people and for their children and descendants, this is what they need to do. They have suffered defeat after agonizing defeat. They need to internalize this defeat, and they need to move on.

Again, peace will come when the Palestinian people decide they love their children more than they hate the Jews. When they have crossed that bridge, they will give the hideous monsters of the world, the Arafats, the Fatahs, the Hamases, etc., the well deserved boot.

Until the day comes when they get the internal fortitude and courage to cross that bridge, don't pretend to be oh so shocked when the Jews rightly take matters into their own hands.

themustardseed said...

Pagan Temple: The Palestinians don't love their children???? Ah, fuck, whatever. Anyhoo...

I almost puked in my mouth when I heard that asshole mention the West Bank as a "shinning example."

Larry Gambone said...

I never thought I would see "Give peace a chance." linked to ethnic cleansing. John Lennon must be spinning in his grave!

Mehmet Çagatay said...

that's why i always prefer his other song over "give peace a chance":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QV_HacITGA

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Pagan , your undermining of history never seizes to surprise me and even amuse me...

For starters, Palestinians were evicted as part of a plan 60 years ago, and continued to be suffering, not due to hatred embedded genetically in them, rather by the hatred of others who wanted them out.

60 years ago is not that far Pagan, the Zionists claim to bring back a diaspora aging 2000 years old, if not even more. So yes, my mother is a survival of this 1948 ethnic cleansing, as a matter of fact, we still hold our title deeds registered from the British mandate which the UN requested that we preserve our documents, and we did.

I also enjoy your idea of all Palestinians are born out of hatred, it is the equivalent that all Americans are dumb asses like Bush or violant like the ghettos of Detroit. Although you seem to promote the former.

In regards to Israel, the July war proved that nothing is certain, when the Lebanese defeated the Israeli infantry, and their tank power (even sinking couple of their naval power), it should tell you that the moment their F16s are shot down, Israel is doomed, and probably 1948 will repeat itself in reverse. I opt for the option of Jews abandoning hatred and living in peace with others, Zionists are hated because they are regarded as true disciples of applying Hitler's tactics on others... your naive logic confirms it. You lack the idea of Human Rights.

Finally, you seem to follow the school of Bernard Lewis, that Arabs have hatred, I am half Palestinian myself from my mother, who is a Christian btw, but of course that shatters your stereotyping, just as the Israelis bombed Churches of Christians in Lebanon, unless your blindness causes you to reject these facts. Oh actually, I never recalled the Palestinians nor the Lebanese bombing the UN...

and finally, if you really trust your American Diplomats, check why your diplomats called Ariel Sharon a perfect dickhead in Cursed is the Peace Maker, probably the only time the US Marines and the Israelis met and existed in the same fieldwork and the uS Marines were given the order: Shoot in Defense or Shoot to Kill against the IDF... that came from the words of your own diplomants... of course you might accuse them of anti-semitism... so try to bring me history rather your blind hatred to the Arabs, like me and others :)

MFL

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Renegade, Troutsky, how are you?
LWB, interesting perspective, ...

Renegade in reply to your question, I was simply burdened with two jobs at the same time and academics, practically I didn't have time to breath :)

I was going to announce my retirement, but nevertherless decided not yet...

MFL

MarxistFromLebanon said...

the patterns are there with the Nazis, I usually compare the Zionists to Milosevic and Karadzic :)

I know it can be a sensitive topic, but if everyone here are using the logos that the Zionists are doing what the Nazis did to the Jews...

Gert said...

Mad Zionist: still cwazy after all those years...

"Ren, Ren, Ren...if Israel just humanely returns these long-suffering arabs to their surrounding arab countries, and repatriates them with financial and humanitarian assistance, the conflict ends, the dispute is resolved, Israel has permanent, viable borders, and everybody lives happily ever after."

Here's the guys who gets uppity when one calls Israul an Apartheid state.

Things are gonna get worse for you MZ, from de facto Apartheid to de jure Apartheid may take another 20 years but then the world will really start to take notice: then nothing will be easier than to start an anti-Hasbara campaign on the basis of the SA precedent. Then the Nutzis will have to learn to live democratically among their former prisoners (careful when you take a shower, don't drop that bar of soap!). The majority can then vote to call it Palestine again. FREE Palestine? Nutters like you are already doing it for us, it's just a matter of time.

Go on MZ, go play with your Arab tin soldiers: hops! Another 100 gone, lemmesee, only 5 million to go now...

Gert said...

And for the record: Mad Zionist has called for the indiscriminate extermination of ALL MUSLIMS WORLWIDE for most of his blogging life. His newfound pseudo-humanistic "transfer policy" must be the result of a joint w*nking session with his new idol, Moshe Feiglin.

Mad Zionist is one of these crackpots who was brought up to believe there are no Palestinians, not now, not ever. "A land w/o people for a people w/o land": Hasbara 101.

You really must wonder what it is that stops Mad Zionist from claiming his little plot in the land (WB) that G-d promised the Jews from Brooklyn? Is it the thought of serving in the ADF? The thought of the vicinity of smelly Arabs, sorry, I meant "vermin"?

The Pagan Temple said...

To Marxist From Lebanon-

"Pagan , your undermining of history never seizes to surprise me and even amuse me..."

History is what it is, MFL. It's easy to interpret it from the outside. Not so much when you're in the middle of it, where you can't hope to view it objectively. Of course, being a "scholar" I'm sure you'll deny that you are viewing your history from an emotional perspective.

"For starters, Palestinians were evicted as part of a plan 60 years ago, and continued to be suffering, not due to hatred embedded genetically in them, rather by the hatred of others who wanted them out."

Really? Was this before or after they adamantly refused the territory and the country they were offered, which was in fact equal in territory to Israel.? Hmmm, I seem to think it was after they rejected the offer and tried to wage a war to take it all.

"60 years ago is not that far Pagan, the Zionists claim to bring back a diaspora aging 2000 years old, if not even more."

Yeah, and like I said, if we were having this debate when the UN pulled that bonehead move sixty years ago, I'd probably be on your side in this discussion. It's not the place of an international organization, or any other national entity, to create nations based on the claims promoted in ancient writings.

Still, sixty years is a long time for me, and it's more than enough time for you to get the fuck over it.

"So yes, my mother is a survival of this 1948 ethnic cleansing, as a matter of fact, we still hold our title deeds registered from the British mandate which the UN requested that we preserve our documents, and we did."

And you should receive just compensation for them. You do not however have the right to blow up teenagers in pizza parlors today because your parents and grandparents were wronged sixty years ago.

"I also enjoy your idea of all Palestinians are born out of hatred, it is the equivalent that all Americans are dumb asses like Bush or violant like the ghettos of Detroit. Although you seem to promote the former."

I'm glad you enjoy it, you must get a real kick out of putting words in people's mouths. I never said they were born out of hatred. They do seem to learn it at a pretty early age though. For example, what is it with all these live-action cartoon characters preaching hatred of the Israelis on children's television shows? How is it they are portrayed as having human families? I thought when a Muslim had sex with an animal they were supposed to kill them immediately after they achieved orgasm, after which they are allowed to sell the animals meat, provided it is outside their own village?

Evidently there is a mouse, rabbit, and a bee that got away just in the nick of time. I don't think I would be insulting other people's religions if I were you.

"In regards to Israel, the July war proved that nothing is certain, when the Lebanese defeated the Israeli infantry, and their tank power (even sinking couple of their naval power), it should tell you that the moment their F16s are shot down, Israel is doomed, and probably 1948 will repeat itself in reverse."

And this is supposed to mean something to me? You don't have to convince me that the Israelis are not under some kind of divine protection, if that's what you're getting at. If they are, then their God must really have some sick sense of humor.

All that aside, I hate to break it to you, but the real reason the Israelis had such a hard time in that war was because they restrained themselves, due mainly to urges from the UN and the US to exercise restraint and limit themselves to a "proportional response". There was no ground invasion to speak of, just a bunch of jets and missile strikes basically.

Do you really think if they had not tried they could not have utterly destroyed your country? Don't you realize how lucky you are right now to be able to go home and not see nothing but miles upon miles of destruction?


"I opt for the option of Jews abandoning hatred and living in peace with others, Zionists are hated because they are regarded as true disciples of applying Hitler's tactics on others... your naive logic confirms it. You lack the idea of Human Rights."

Name me one time when Israelis went to war that it wasn't precipitated by an attack on them by someone else. I say you can't do it.

"Finally, you seem to follow the school of Bernard Lewis, that Arabs have hatred, I am half Palestinian myself from my mother, who is a Christian btw, but of course that shatters your stereotyping, just as the Israelis bombed Churches of Christians in Lebanon, unless your blindness causes you to reject these facts."

What facts? That Israel has attacked Christian Arabs? That there ARE Christian Arabs? News flash, I've known personally more of your people than I'm sure you've known of mine. I know what kind of people they are. Just like anyone else, good, bad, and ugly. Regardless of what they generally were, they almost without exception get worked up over these kinds of issues and talk out of their asses. That's because they are talking out of emotion, and logic and common sense gets tossed out the window. I used to know one guy that used to get all wound up over Saddam Hussein. He claimed Saddam could "fuck any woman he wanted, including Bush's wife." He was hilarious. When Arabs get going over Middle East controversies, intelligence takes a holiday.

"Oh actually, I never recalled the Palestinians nor the Lebanese bombing the UN..."

Hey, you know something, neither have I, so we are finally in agreement. I wonder why that is? Hey, you know something, I think I've just figured it out. I guess it might have something to do with the fact that the Israelis have never shot missiles at Palestinian civilians from UN buildings.

Now that you've been soundly spanked, take the time to reflect on how little sense you have made. If you ever get around to pursuing my idea of receiving compensation for your lost lands, you might also want to consider handing your diploma in for a refund, Mr. Scholar.

Gert said...

Pagan:

"Now that you've been soundly spanked"

From reading your longwinded crap, I can see that you're just another fatso Meircan who doesn't get it. 30 years of being subjected to Usraeli propaganda caused blindness in quite a few of your compatriots, you're just another case.

Mad Zionist said...

Regarding the Gert/LWB's libelous charges, let me just say for the record that I do not, and have not, called for the "indiscriminate extermination of ALL MUSLIMS WORLWIDE".

Ideally, I would support any efforts to eradicate/reform Islam since it clearly has proven over the millennium to be a terrorist organization, NOT the faux "religion of peace" slogan, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the path to peace between the Jewish State and the arabs.

Now, enough with the foolishness from the Jew hating gallery.

Nobody, yes nobody, has provided a viable, legitimate proposal for peace accept me. Let me repeat my plan for peace yet again, just in case any new visitors want to see the recipe for ending the Arab/Israeli dispute.

1. Israel annexes all of the territories and declares final, permanent borders.

2. Israel declares the arabs living in the territories Jordanian.

3. Israel exclusively negotiates with Jordan the terms of repatriating their arabs, and sets in motion the process of resettlement.

4. Israel firmly and humanely resettles the arabs to Jordan under terms of the negotiated settlement, brokered with the Jordanian government.

5. The transferred arabs are provided with financial compensation and all the rights granted with full, naturalized Jordanian citizenship.

Give peace a chance, gang. It's possible, but it requires courage, honesty, intelligence, and determination. Anything less would be uncivilized.

The Pagan Temple said...

They don't want to give peace a chance, MZ, they want a ringside seat to a never ending boxing match with themselves as the referees, so they can make sure Israel (you know, the good guys) never go beyond a "proportional response". Under their rules of engagement, it's a guaranteed ticket to constant strife and bloodshed, with never a clear determined victor, and guarantees of unlimited rematches.

That's why I've learned to laugh when they all wax poetic about how they all long for "peace".

It's a sick, sad joke, but it's gallows humor indeed. If it weren't for the blood of the children and the elderly, and innumerable widows and orphans they produce, it would be best described as slapstick.

Liberal White Boy said...

LWB's peace proposal

1. Grab all Jewish settlers by scruff of their racist necks and return them to Israel's 1967 borders. No exceptions. Then tear down that apartheid wall.

2. Tell Hamas to stop firing their bottle rockets at their old neighborhoods in Israel.

3. Compensate Palestinians for their stolen land in Israel.

4. Arm Palestine so it can truly be a sovereign nation.

5. Israel must apologize to all Palestinians for 60 years of murderous savagery and oppression.

I'm no Condi Rice but by golly I think this could work.

Blue Skull said...

Russia, Germany, and France are selling/giving weapons to the Arabs and the USA is selling/giving weapons to the Israelies and Arabs (i.e. Saudi Arabia, ...). Let them fight to their hearts content and stop trying to broker peace. We will just have to make sacrifices because of the disruption in the world oil industry and terrorist attacks. If they kill enough of each other Allah and Yahweh will sort things out.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Dear Pagan
Being in the middle of it is exactly what allows me to view history as it happened, and not fall a victim for CNN where you see 10% of a story. Being an academic and actually experiencing three wars is exactly why I beat you with history of the region, where you insist that one race needs to be demolished.

How come you assume all Palestinians want to blow themselves up? See? That is another naïve judgment of hatred where you blame the victims for even being present. Besides, the very people who blew themselves up were a reaction to your beloved Zionists aggressions. Even more to the point, you never mentioned how Israel bombed shelters and UN havens full of children, unlike you I condemn explosions, but also unlike you, I am more humane than your racial logic. Nothing justifies those atrocities, unless like a dumbass you go believing that war is against uncivilized people, then go stand next to MZ and ask for sympathy. Your peace is butchery.

Then like a dumb ass, you fall for the propaganda engineered by Yosif Weitz, head of the transfer Commission of Palestinians (from their rightful homes I may add). Allow me to say that the Jewish partition side of 1947 were even there a minority, and definitely I understand the Palestinians for going outrageously for dividing their country due to the 19th form of European colonialism. If you failed to regard Zionism as that, then you do not know anything about the Middle East, and hopefully one day you will visit Israel and check out the way of life of the Palestinians. Funny, not one lower staff of the UN didn't condemn Israel for their butcheries.

I fully thank you for the compensation to my family but we do not take blood money but only our homes that had been empty since 1948 btw, but when injustice takes place, the Zionists need to be held accountable. 50,000 were shoved outside their homes in Ramleh, and they were clear they wanted peace with whoever was their neighbor. If that was not ethnic cleansing, then you say what it is. And if you are attacking the Palestinians for suffering 60 years ago and now, then surely you believe the dumb ass theory of Jews reuniting 2000 years old of diaspora, whereby pre-1920 Jews were part of the Arabs, till Zionism came and divided people according to race, even Jews who refused to join Zionism (and they still do attacking top Jewish profiles, like Finkelstein).

As for the attacks, why plenty. The destruction of Palestine in 1948 (check Plan D), the offensive on Egypt in 1958, the attack on Lebanon in 1982 where even the top US diplomats like Morris Draper, Ambassador Lewis, and Philip Habib called it irrelevant and cost General Al Heg his position, the July War of 2006 was admitted to Winograd as pre-planned for quiet some time, and of course the Jeneen massacres and the current bloodbaths of Gaza which you call it, like a true believer of the Bush doctrines, Self-Defense. (named more than you expected, can you say pawned dearie?)
Your reply in regards of the Palestinian Arabs was not answered to mine except in a racist perspective, believe it, Israel bombed Churches. What because they are Christian Arabs now they are worthy to be bombed? What does that have to do with a dictator like Saddam? After all, Saddam was a US production in the first place, or your 'academic sources' don't say so?

Now dear Pagan, surely you cannot be that of a dumb ass that you don't know Israel entered with 50,000 reservists in Lebanon, and thanked the heavens for the war is over? Or the fact they bombed Lebanon and then like little losers decided to do the swipe? Hmmmm? You really justify human butchery, don't you? And what self-restrained? You mean bombing almost the entire Lebanon was self-restrained on an Arab country? Didn't you know a quarter of the population was living on the streets? Bombed Red Cross, even East Christian Beirut which was historically pro-Israeli? Even the Christian hardliners who were Israel's allies have three martyrs at Israel's hands... so again, what is your media? CNN? If you lack money to buy books, I am sure the comrades will buy you a lot to give you little education.

Now, how come you generalize every Muslim sleeps with animals? And if one did, does it mean every one does? Hmmm, cartoons on hating the Jews? Remind me, wasn't Chomsky Hassan Nasrallah's VIP guest? Isn't he a Jew? Or he is no longer a Jew for not being a Zionist? Your logic of Islam and barbarism compliments your racism. If people warn against the nation of Israel, document its history, doesn't mean that they are preaching blind hatred. A lot of American Jews are touring Lebanon, I know at least three of them alone, and nobody is doing any harm on them, as a matter of fact they love Lebanon, shatters the reality of co-oexistance? What about the demonstration of the Jewish and Arabs in Israel? 2000 is a nice number? Why no media mentioned it? Because for buffoons like you to howl on how Muslims are born pigs and sleep with animals, you are aware in the first place that Arabs are not only Muslims? But Christians, and Jews as well... so re-read your history books... of course though an amateur like yourself forgot that Jesus originated from the Palestine lands, and during the medieval times it was the Byzantine Empire (you heard of that? Or not yet, glad to have taught you), and as a matter of fact Lebanon is assumed to have 40% Christians, the current parliament is made of 50% Christians, 50% Muslims). You want democracy, try Lebanon, and not Israel's single color of racism and undermining non-Zionist 'enemies'.

Of course, you need more in history, glad to have shed light on that single neuron brains of yours, which is coming out of racism... how does it feel an Arab shoving real history down your throat o glorious defender of the West and giver to them a bad reputation? Say hello to your cousin Karadzic... I am sure you are related someone to each other.

I noticed you combine your hatred and racism with a little bit of CNN-based info... if that is academics for you, then try to replicate that neuron in your brain to fit more info :)

(now repeat after me: MFL trashed me)

Best regards for the comrades
MFL

PS: Blue Skull: The US armed our Lebanese army as well, along with Russia, figure it out ...

MZ: Again, ethnic cleansing from a land is not a solution rather it will bring worse aftermath for Zionists, you cannot imagine Israel will live forever because you do not know how economies of scale allow the underdogs to catch up with the giants...

Blue Skull said...

"PS: Blue Skull: The US armed our Lebanese army as well, along with Russia, figure it out ..."

Yeah, Whats up with that?

When I was in the US Army we had Jordanian soldiers training on the same base learning how to maintain and use rocket and missile systems.

The USA is like the Aztec God Tezcatlipoca who was sometimes called "The Enemy on Both Sides." LOL

Gert said...

I'd vote for LWB's peace plan any day. The alterative is allowing Israel to destroy itself by creating a few Arab reservations in a sea of Zionuts settlers, until the world wakes up and the former prison officers become the imprisoned.

Mad Zionist: don't lie, I caught you out on that (the 'extermination thingy') once before, remember when Google's cache of your blog showed that I was exactly right and left you standing there with a mouth full of teeth? So you've reformed a little? Rejoice! But don't lie about your past convictions...

The only one here that shows impressive knowledge of the I/P conflict is MarxistfromLebanon.

The Pagan Temple said...

Yeah, Gert, you would vote for LWB's peace plan, which involves grabbing Jews by the scruff of their "racist necks". As for the Palestinians, well, they'll just be told a thing or two.

I see Warmonger From Lebanon is in need of yet another spanking, so I'll be back later to deal with him.

Mad Zionist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mad Zionist said...

Gert/LWB/MFL are simply foolish liars and bigots. No point addressing or debating them with reason since they are driven solely by a savage blood-lust against the Jewish people.

Let me try and bring this conversation back to sensibility, intelligence and rational discourse again.

The "peace plan" of GERT/LWB calls for the following:

1. The Jews to be expelled from the post-1967 territories.

2. The descendants of the arabs who fled Israel under the false hope that the Jews would be exterminated in 1948 given generous compensation to move to Israel.

3. Heavily arm the "Palestinian" arabs and open their borders to Israel.

4. Ask the arabs not to attack the Jews.

Um...no. Israel clobbered the comically inept, hapless arabs in the War of Independence, and the subsequent wars in which they acquired the territories, so it would be insanity for them to expel themselves and volunteer to lose their land. The side that gets removed is the side that was defeated, and the arabs were defeated by the Jews, pure and simple.

Setting up Jews in position for extermination is not humane or peaceful, gang. My plan makes both sides better off, while this bigoted plan of Gert/LWB just splatters Jewish blood.

The Pagan Temple said...

To Corporal Klinger-

"Dear Pagan
Being in the middle of it is exactly what allows me to view history as it happened, and not fall a victim for CNN where you see 10% of a story. Being an academic and actually experiencing three wars is exactly why I beat you with history of the region, where you insist that one race needs to be demolished."

Now you are just simply outright lying. Show me one instance where I said that any race needs to be demolished. You're just throwing shit out and assuming everybody will believe it without bothering to backtrack and check what I actually said.

I bet if the truth was known you were nowhere in the vicinity of any of these wars, you're just relying on second hand information from sources with an ax to grind. You've gotten so used to lies and lying, and the lying liars who lie them, you even lie to me right to my face about what I've said. Why should anyone believe you now?

"How come you assume all Palestinians want to blow themselves up? See? That is another naïve judgment of hatred where you blame the victims for even being present. Besides, the very people who blew themselves up were a reaction to your beloved Zionists aggressions. Even more to the point, you never mentioned how Israel bombed shelters and UN havens full of children, unlike you I condemn explosions, but also unlike you, I am more humane than your racial logic. Nothing justifies those atrocities, unless like a dumbass you go believing that war is against uncivilized people, then go stand next to MZ and ask for sympathy. Your peace is butchery."

Another lie. I never said anything about "All Palestinians want to blow themselves up." I'll tell you for a fact some that don't want to do so-the leaders of Hamas and Fatah, who would much prefer to find innocent children to do that for them.

"Then like a dumb ass, you fall for the propaganda engineered by Yosif Weitz, head of the transfer Commission of Palestinians (from their rightful homes I may add). Allow me to say that the Jewish partition side of 1947 were even there a minority, and definitely I understand the Palestinians for going outrageously for dividing their country due to the 19th form of European colonialism. If you failed to regard Zionism as that, then you do not know anything about the Middle East, and hopefully one day you will visit Israel and check out the way of life of the Palestinians. Funny, not one lower staff of the UN didn't condemn Israel for their butcheries."

How many times do I have to tell you I would not have supported that at the time it happened in 1948? I guess ignoring what I actually say though makes it a hell of a lot easier to lie about what I say, huh?

"I fully thank you for the compensation to my family but we do not take blood money but only our homes that had been empty since 1948 btw, but when injustice takes place, the Zionists need to be held accountable. 50,000 were shoved outside their homes in Ramleh, and they were clear they wanted peace with whoever was their neighbor. If that was not ethnic cleansing, then you say what it is. And if you are attacking the Palestinians for suffering 60 years ago and now, then surely you believe the dumb ass theory of Jews reuniting 2000 years old of diaspora, whereby pre-1920 Jews were part of the Arabs, till Zionism came and divided people according to race, even Jews who refused to join Zionism (and they still do attacking top Jewish profiles, like Finkelstein)."

Bottom line, it's over. Israel is a nation, and your people, the Palestinians, are being used and abused not by the Jews, but by their leaders. They are the ones that are bringing misery on them, not the Jews. Think about it. What home have you had taken away from you? What home has the majority of Palestinians had taken from them? Why should a Palestinian child of say ten years old die for a home taken away from a great-grandfather sixty years ago? Can't you see this is madness?

"As for the attacks, why plenty. The destruction of Palestine in 1948 (check Plan D), the offensive on Egypt in 1958, the attack on Lebanon in 1982 where even the top US diplomats like Morris Draper, Ambassador Lewis, and Philip Habib called it irrelevant and cost General Al Heg his position, the July War of 2006 was admitted to Winograd as pre-planned for quiet some time, and of course the Jeneen massacres and the current bloodbaths of Gaza which you call it, like a true believer of the Bush doctrines, Self-Defense. (named more than you expected, can you say pawned dearie?)
Your reply in regards of the Palestinian Arabs was not answered to mine except in a racist perspective, believe it, Israel bombed Churches. What because they are Christian Arabs now they are worthy to be bombed? What does that have to do with a dictator like Saddam? After all, Saddam was a US production in the first place, or your 'academic sources' don't say so?"

It is self-defense. No nation is going to put up with somebody shooting missiles into their territory. My point about Saddam was just a real-life anecdote from my own experience with Arabs I have known. They all act like you when it comes to Middle East issues. They are understandably not objective. It's impossible for them to be. They speak from emotion. Saddam was actually quite well-loved when they thought he might kick the US's ass. He only went back to being a bloodthirsty dictatorial tyrant it seems after he had his ass handed to him, which was an embarrassment to Arab manhood, it seems.

"Now dear Pagan, surely you cannot be that of a dumb ass that you don't know Israel entered with 50,000 reservists in Lebanon, and thanked the heavens for the war is over? Or the fact they bombed Lebanon and then like little losers decided to do the swipe? Hmmmm? You really justify human butchery, don't you? And what self-restrained? You mean bombing almost the entire Lebanon was self-restrained on an Arab country? Didn't you know a quarter of the population was living on the streets? Bombed Red Cross, even East Christian Beirut which was historically pro-Israeli? Even the Christian hardliners who were Israel's allies have three martyrs at Israel's hands... so again, what is your media? CNN? If you lack money to buy books, I am sure the comrades will buy you a lot to give you little education."

They shouldn't have kidnapped an Israeli soldier, or have you forgotten about that? I'm sure his family hasn't forgot about it. That's what happens when you pull shit you have no business pulling. You suffer for it. So why don't you kick Hezbollah's asses out of your country? Oh, I get it. You're a bunch of cowards and are afraid of them. Yes, I see now. I see all too well.

"Now, how come you generalize every Muslim sleeps with animals? And if one did, does it mean every one does? Hmmm, cartoons on hating the Jews? Remind me, wasn't Chomsky Hassan Nasrallah's VIP guest? Isn't he a Jew? Or he is no longer a Jew for not being a Zionist? Your logic of Islam and barbarism compliments your racism. If people warn against the nation of Israel, document its history, doesn't mean that they are preaching blind hatred. A lot of American Jews are touring Lebanon, I know at least three of them alone, and nobody is doing any harm on them, as a matter of fact they love Lebanon, shatters the reality of co-oexistance? What about the demonstration of the Jewish and Arabs in Israel? 2000 is a nice number? Why no media mentioned it? Because for buffoons like you to howl on how Muslims are born pigs and sleep with animals, you are aware in the first place that Arabs are not only Muslims? But Christians, and Jews as well... so re-read your history books... of course though an amateur like yourself forgot that Jesus originated from the Palestine lands, and during the medieval times it was the Byzantine Empire (you heard of that? Or not yet, glad to have taught you), and as a matter of fact Lebanon is assumed to have 40% Christians, the current parliament is made of 50% Christians, 50% Muslims). You want democracy, try Lebanon, and not Israel's single color of racism and undermining non-Zionist 'enemies'.

I never said all Muslims sleep with animals and I don't judge all of them by what ones might do so. You are the one who was denigrating the Jewish religion, and I was just pointing out one example of why you might want to think twice about doing that. Of course you knew what I was getting at, you're just trying to be clever. Nice try, but no cigar. I won't make any comments on Chomsky, other than to say if he was a VIP guest of a Hamas or Fatah etc., leader, that would disqualify him from being a Jew far more than him not being a Zionist. It would qualify him as a traitor, perhaps. I would have to know the context of the visit and what he hoped to accomplish.

As for Jews touring Lebanon, a lot of people used to tour and love Lebanon. Not so much anymore since your peeps have managed to turn it from a paradise by the Mediterranean into hell on earth. Not many people want to go there now, it seems, but I guess with some Arabs that's fine and dandy if no infidels want to come there. You don't see those infidel Phoenicians hanging around there anymore either.

You know the Phoenicians, I'm sure, being as you are a "scholar" and all. Yeah, they are the ones Lebanon actually belonged to before the Arabs drove out and/or murdered most of them.

As a matter of fact, your peeps seem to have a history of taking over countries and massacring native populations, such as, for example-the Philistines, from whom is derived the name Palestine.

So hey, I have an idea, since fair is fair and all, let's find all the descendants of the Philistines and the Phoenicians whose land all you Arabs stole, and give that land to them. Seeing as how it would be their "rightful inheritance" and all. Let's not forget how you Arabs committed genocide against the Assyrians and the Chaldeans in Iraq until you almost wiped them out of existence as well.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of genocide, how's about we do something about calling a halt to the Arabs in Sudan who are conducting genocide against the indigent native population in Darfur. Yeah, those are Arabs who are responsible for that atrocity as well, over which you seem remarkably silent.

It seems Arabs have a propensity towards genocide more than any other race of people. I think your concerns over the Jews is a gigantic case of projection myself.

And about Jesus being born in "Palestine lands" who do you think you're kidding? In the first place I am by no means convinced Jesus was a historical person, and in the second place, whether he was or not is irrelevant to the fact that there were no Arabs in Palestine at the time in question. The closest they lived was in Petra. The rest lived beyond there and were generally unknown desert Bedouins.

Now it seems the motherfuckers are everywhere. They even seem to have plans to one day exact their revenge on the Great Satan by turning the White House into an Islamic mosque. Where did I hear this? On that Hamas children's show you seem to like to defend.

And yes, oh wise one, I knew about the Byzantine Empire, not that it is particularly relevant to this discussion-which is why I thought I should go to the trouble of pointing that out, so you might know in the future not to make mention of irrelevant facts and risk calling into question your credentials as a "scholar".

"Of course, you need more in history, glad to have shed light on that single neuron brains of yours, which is coming out of racism... how does it feel an Arab shoving real history down your throat o glorious defender of the West and giver to them a bad reputation? Say hello to your cousin Karadzic... I am sure you are related someone to each other.

Your so-called "real history" would make a good comedy routine, but as far as real history, I am afraid it does not qualify as such, poor deluded fellow. And another thing you are lacking in is skill in word definitions. For example, the words racist and bigot are not to be defined as "anybody who doesn't agree with me."

"I noticed you combine your hatred and racism with a little bit of CNN-based info... if that is academics for you, then try to replicate that neuron in your brain to fit more info :)"

Every now and then I do try to make it a point to read Al-Jazeera, whenever I need a good laugh. Since I read your nonsense tonight, I don't need to bother.

(now repeat after me: MFL trashed me)

Actually, MFL got his Arab ass whupped-again. Damn, this is getting to be such a habit, I'm starting to wonder if I might have a tad bit of Jewish blood myself.

Renegade Eye said...

I will reply to the major points.

Tomorrow in Minneapolis will be a rally against Israel's incursion to Gaza. I'll be very interested to see what forces turn up and what they say. My comrades will have our own leaflet, similar to my earlier post.

MFL: I like the Orientalist document.

I stay clear of any analogies in this situation. I think Israel has no regard about civilian casualties, but still can defend itself against Balkan comparisons. I don't like the apartheid analogy either.

Comparing Warsaw to Gaza: Between 1941 and 1943 the population of the Warsaw Ghetto dropped from an estimated 380,000 to 70,000 as a result of starvation, disease and deportations to concentration and extermination camps (3). The rate of starvation in the ghetto was over 4,000 a month. In 1942, mass expulsion of the ghetto inhabitants began at a rate of over 5,000 Jews a day. Only some 55,000 remained in the ghetto. Some decided to resist, but the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was crushed after four weeks. According to German figures – which may have understated the resistance fighters’ resources yet still revealed their poor odds of winning any victory – the Nazis captured nine rifles, 59 pistols, and several hundred grenades, explosives and mines. Seven thousand of the captured Jews were shot, 22,000 were transported to death camps

My point is let the other side use non precise language.

MZ: In response to your program.

1. Israel annexes all of the territories and declares final, permanent borders.



2. Israel declares the arabs living in the territories Jordanian.


3. Israel exclusively negotiates with Jordan the terms of repatriating their arabs, and sets in motion the process of resettlement.

4. Israel firmly and humanely resettles the arabs to Jordan under terms of the negotiated settlement, brokered with the Jordanian government.

5. The transferred arabs are provided with financial compensation and all the rights granted with full, naturalized Jordanian citizenship.


Your whole program is one program with five portions. I'll play along, and it is passed. All the Arabs are accepted into Jordan.

I believe on your blog, Nanc once said, "Israel is eternal." As a dialectical and historical materialist, I believe nothing is eternal. Everything is subject to change. Not only does everything change, we negate the negation. We create the seeds for our own destruction, like out of feudalism, came the capitalist. Another example is the modern capitalist created its own doom, by creating the modern working class.

Your theory excludes class differences and even ethnic differences amongst Jews. One group of Jews, has to rule over another. Should religious Jews or secular Jews rule? If 100% Jews take over the same state that Olmert ruled, why not another Olmert? Mugabe took over the colonialist state, and became like the colonialists. In addition there would be no debate, it would be a racist state. I think you are utopian in the Marxist sense, meaning you're dreaming.

Blue Skull: We're talking about politics, not a movie.

LWB: Your point one is antisemitic. It hurts your insightful analysis you presented about after Hamas's electoral win.

Gert: I noticed MZ took down the link to your blog.

Since the US lost in Iraq, and Obama wants out, he'll be negotiating with Iran and Syria soon. A reformist will win the upcoming elections in Iran, as the mullahs want good terms with Obama. They will demand Obama deliver a Palestinian state.

I believe MZ is advocating in practice, an apartheid type state, still let the other side use rhetoric.

Pagan: Most Palestinians opposed Hamas's rockets towards Israel. They hate both Hamas and Fatah.

According to Palestinian scholar Rashid Kahlidi: Well, we have two extremely weak and unpopular movements, led, in my view, by people whose ideas are bankrupt and mistaken, in Hamas and Fatah. When I was there—I was in the West Bank, I was not able to go to Gaza—when I was in the West Bank and Jerusalem, it was clear that in a free and fair election both groups together wouldn’t get 30 or 35 percent of the vote.

People detest Fatah. They loathe it. And their loathing has increased as a result of its failure to act in defense of its own people, not just during the siege; the Palestinian Authority was complicit in the blockade of Gaza for a year and a half. People who claim to represent the Palestinian people were conniving in the blockade of one-and-a-half million of their citizens, of the people they purportedly represented.

Hamas was extremely unpopular for firing rockets at Israel, to no purpose except causing civilian casualties and bringing fire and brimstone down on the heads of a million and a half innocent civilians.

So, both have been, I would argue, weakened. I would—my guess is the Palestinian Authority and Fatah much more. The Arab regimes, I think, have been weakened. Their position is detested and loathed by most of their people. People are ashamed of what their governments have done, all over the Arab world.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Aow, Pagan, if you are really a Pagan in the first place, don't get upset for the truth finding some light into those thick pupils of yours...

Weren't you the one who assumed that every Muslim is born out of hatred in your earlier comments? If that is not racism, then I do not know what you can call it, personally, I call that racism; to be added with your logic of 'self-defense' whereby one group is allowed to stick to the Human Rights and the Laws of Combat, and another are the sitting lambs to be bombed into kingdom come. (also you never tackled the duality nationality nor answered anything in regards to the British archives, you heard of the British archives, haven't you? Oh couldn't find that in the CNN or Rice's speeches? Wait, Jesus might inspire you like he inspired your stupid president to invade Iraq) So far, you have been in the losing end, all you got is MZ supporting you... you even justified the Serbs carrying ethnic cleansing because they are natives six centuries ago earlier... and to be honest, that means every Native American with your logic are allowed to do whatever they want with the 'occupiers' of their land (same simile o little one, don't let the steam come out of your ears). If you accuse me of lying, then why so pathetically you replying as if you are in a court room (please move from the corner).
As a Marxist, I promote the unity of the Proletariat against their leaderships, which includes Muslims, Palestinian Catholics, Palestinian Orthodox, Israeli Druz, Palestinian Jews, European Jews, and practically any nationality or religion existent there. On the other hand, you assume that all Arabs want to blow themselves up, and even marginalize the Christians because they are Arabs. Furthermore, your reference to Saddam Hussein was not answered to my question whereas who created Saddam to counter Iran, actually did you know that your tax payers gave Taliban 45 million dollars through the UN in less than six months to 9/11? How about holding your Administration accountable to that, instead of quoting a footage on CNN that turned out to be a year older... to justify the on-going slaughter.
Pagan, let's face it, racists need a lot of time to admit their errors. You simply like to sight one side of the story.
If all Palestinians do not want to blow themselves up, then why bringing it in the context after saying that my family deserved compensation? Even you find difficulties to say that the Palestinians were wronged?
The 1958 was a self-defense? Where did you get that? What about 1982? That was self-defense where an Israeli ambassador got killed in London (Argov if my memory serves me right) so they go sweep Lebanon? Why Al Heg was sacked after that, and why the United States opposed Israel's plans? Because they are as always bullshit (probably the only time the US and the IDF had ground fieldwork together and the Marines almost shot your glorious IDF in self-defense)
"My point about Saddam was just a real-life anecdote from my own experience with Arabs I have known. They all act like you when it comes to Middle East issues. They are understandably not objective."
All Arabs are like that? Now of course, you can do the same simile to the Europeans, to say Arab countries is the same to say Europeans, but of course Arabs are of a lower level to you because you refuse to hear what they say, or heck even Jews who say what you don't like, you would criticize them without proper investigation. Why too much for your ego? An Israeli professor in this post doesn't understand the situation as you do? O his majestic glory, which God or Goddess shall I pray for to seek thy wisdom? Hecate? Artemis? Juno? Ishtar? Eric Clapton? Or Pink Floyd? Please enlighten me o racist one.
Remind me well, who kicked Israel out of Lebanon? Actually if you watch the footages, who ran away with their lives outside Lebanon? Oh the Israelis? Who they abandoned and took some of them away? Oh the Southern Lebanese Army, their allies. Who kidnapped the two soldiers in Lebanon? Sure Hezbollah, but who bombed the entire nation (which you just contradicted yourself by the 'self-restraint issue'), Israel, who killed citizens, Israel... and wait who negotiated again to take them after bombing Lebanon? Israel.... in case you have not noticed, Israel in the new century haven't been having a good start. Pulling an act on the IDF required the UN, even Ze'ev Schiffe reported that the IDF 6 times blocked Hezbollah movements, now if that plan wasn't prepared to dissect Lebanon and attempt to trigger a civil war, then you definitely do not live in another planet. Of course, Israel is allowed to trespass Lebanese borders anytime they want and kidnap any farmer they want or shoot fishermen... it is self-defense, sure. You really haven't noticed the impacts of the 2006 war? Why you think I hail Communism as an alternative? Because at this rate, 1948 will take place but in reverse.
As a matter of fact, the impacts of 60 years ago still impact today because the butchery never stopped, some Palestinians got lucky, a lot didn't, and those who stayed got the worst of it. People do not decide to blow themselves up out of the blues, some of them do because they have nothing to live for as A REACTION TO ISRAEL's RACIST policies.
Now in regards to Chomsky , you just committed another racist note, against the Jews themselves. Judaism is an act of belief, but Zionism is a political movement that transformed the Jews into an ethnic compilation. Typical, you assume you can issue a command that every Jew is a Zionist? The Jews who disagree are not Zionists? Remind me, didn't Zionism start in the 19th century? Does that mean all Jews prior to that are not really Jews? Isn’t Judaism, like Christianity and Islam, the belief in One God? Or tell me, some people are allowed to be extremists and others not? That my friend was a racist note and an insult to every Jew who doesn't support Zionism. You keep digging a bigger hole for yourself my friend, you cannot assume you are not racist then generalize.
Phoenicians? Oh dear lord, again with the racist theory. Phoenicians seized to exit ages ago, some of them established Carthage, and that is it. The Phoenicians didn't evaporate with Islam? They started being integrated with the allies of Judea, the Assyrians, after putting a battle, and remain functional for quiet a while till they evolved in the Byzantine Empire (you heard of that, haven't you?) Next you will blame the Arabs for the evaporation of the Phoenicians. The concept though did resurrect again in the 20th century, as a result of a 19th century French sociologist, but there are no such thing as Phoenicians evaporating due to 'backward' people. Funny, again racism that everyone in the neighborhood of Israel are backward. As for the tourists, hmmm, double check the rate of visitors again dearie, we are the spearheads of tourism in the region, even in the middle of instability. Heck, we even have over 500 students from the US alone in one university  Are you sure you reviewed your facts, or want to accuse me of lying again? Someone should buy you a ticket from La la land. Several Jews are visiting Lebanon currently, and they find it a heaven. Several Jews oppose Israel as well. Oh wait, did you know that there are also Lebanese Jews who suffered extensively because of Zionism and its extremism. At least the current Lebanese Jews are living happily. I know couple of them, they are even my comrades. We don't look at religion or ethnicity, unlike other people.
Actually, in regards of Sudan (in order for you to change the topic from the Palestinian Genocide) witnessed massive demonstrations in different areas, awareness campaigns took place, and actually the UN was blamed for not taking any serious acts, if you read Renegade Eye's earlier posts... but of course, you wouldn't , you simply need an excuse to squeeze out of your corner.
"And about Jesus being born in "Palestine lands" who do you think you're kidding? In the first place I am by no means convinced Jesus was a historical person, and in the second place, whether he was or not is irrelevant to the fact that there were no Arabs in Palestine at the time in question. The closest they lived was in Petra. The rest lived beyond there and were generally unknown desert Bedouins."
That region, which included the Hebrews and the Phoenicians originated from the Kenaans, so technically you review your history again my Pagan friend. Second, I am an atheist  But I guess you irritated some people with that reply  In a way, you are favoring one religion over another and calling the other false, as a Marxist, I encourage all the proletariat from all religions to liberate themselves from that belief, pagans included (if you are really one).

"Every now and then I do try to make it a point to read Al-Jazeera, whenever I need a good laugh. Since I read your nonsense tonight, I don't need to bother. "
You mean you never checked the other side except to laugh? Aow, you are so objective. One sided story is not academics... now tag away o little one, and glad I generate some laughs, you just gave Zionism a bad name as well, I should thank you :)

MFL 2 – Spanked Pagan Wanna Be 0

PS: Try not to bang your pc too much out of rage (oh forgot, you called that Laugher?) Good enjoy the pictures of dead children if you really laugh at al-Jazeera page... nothing more to expect from a racist

Waiting for your reply from La la land and of course your credentials CNN

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Renegade, when I go to the US, I will introduce you to Rachid Khalidy,

He is right about the issue, Hamas won because it is easier to be in the opposition and people were fed up of PA's lip service without anything in return... something that I have been discussing on my blog, Israel loves Hamas and needs it for elections

Miss you my friend...
MFL

The Pagan Temple said...

To the self-described "Scholar"-

Misrepresent my words and lie about me all you want. When you make statements to the effect that I said all Arabs want to blow themselves up, we both know you're lying.

Or maybe you're not technically lying. Maybe you just don't know how to read, which is odd, seeing as how you oh so tiresomely claim, to anybody who will listen, that you are a "scholar".

When did I say a Jew that is not a Zionist is not a real Jew? I dare you to show me where I said that. Of course, you can not, because I never said that.

And I am a racist? HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa. I am a white American of European descent. Ask the British actor how taken I am with that. You just don't know what the fucking shit you are talking about, do you? I have put whites and Europeans down the road more often than I can remember, and have defended blacks for example just as often-and vice versa.

I have even had some cordial things to say about Arabs from time to time when I can engage them in something other than their obsessive-compulsive hatred of Jews, er, excuse me, "Zionists".

Not that it matters, but I happen to think Arab women are among the most beautiful in the world, if not the most beautiful. Of course the caveat to this is that I have to be able to see them, which is a fucking rarity, since most Arabs would seem to be so fucking insecure they probably figure "oh I have a little pencil dick I better hide my wife's features otherwise if some other man decides he likes her she is sure to cheat on me and prove to the world I am not a real man after all boo hoo hoo."

Like I said, on the surface it would SEEM to not matter that I consider them beautiful, but in retrospect, how many racists find themselves attracted to women of races they despise? Of course my attraction could be a subconscious reaction to their inner cravings for a real man, for once in their deprived lives.

And please, don't sicken me, and cheapen your arguments, by trying to convince me that you have offered any more than the most token of protests over what your people-Arabs-have done to the blacks in the Sudan. Yeah, it looks good and humane when you can utter the words of condemnation with a wink and a nod, but what have you really done to stop the massacre your fellow Arabs have perpetrated?

Of course, it makes sense that Arabs would want to eradicate all blacks, blacks having such big cocks and all.

Maybe by the time they kill them all you will demand that they apologize for it and promise never to do it again. That'll show them, huh?

Oh, and thanks for reminding me of one reason why I will never be a Marxist. Who in the fuck do you think you are to suggest that people drop their religions? Do you even know what the hell that sounds like? What difference would it fucking make to begin with if they did. There would just be some other nutty reason for people to hate each other, and very little corresponding reason not to do so.

Religion is like a lot of other things in life. It can uphold and encourage the most virtuous parts of humanity, or it can do likewise to the most vile and vicious, justifying them all the while.

And this Jesus crap. You know as well as I do that when you pointed out to me that "Jesus was born in Palestine lands" you were very disingenuously trying to imply that Jesus was a Palestinian. When you saw I was not going to fall for that line of obvious shit, you tried to make out like you, and by extension myself, was saying something entirely different.

Like for example my saying I checked Al-Jazeera for laughs meaning I got those laughs out of pictures of dead children. No, dear "scholar", the only humor I find in that is in wondering how many times they can be moved from one photo shoot in one village to another before they finally mummify.

I don't know that story is true, and have no concrete opinion one way or another, but from what I've heard and seen from your peeps, it wouldn't fucking surprise me in the least. That's the sad part.

Now for the funny part, your bigoted derisive attitude about what Gods or Goddesses I worship. I'll give you a clue, their names do not include the names Karl or Marx.

Renegade Eye said...

This is the quote from Marx in full: Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

More often than not, that quote is misused. Marx didn't at all say abolish religion. He did say socialism will abolish the cause of religion, the heartbreak and desperation that attracts people to it.

All MFL said was that he has no particular loyalty to any religion. He is not a Muslim or a Christian.

Larry Gambone said...

"He did say socialism will abolish the cause of religion, the heartbreak and desperation that attracts people to it."

As proof of this, the countries that are more advanced socially, politically and economically, than the USA, such as the Scandinavian countries, France, Spain etc are also way less religious than the USA.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Pagan, Pagan, my heart is mouring for easy to drive you insane and mop the floor with your ego.

Defensing the Blacks is a noble cause in Marxism, as far as I remember, it is the KKK that are active against them still to this very day in US lands, I hope the FBI will be able to lock them up in prisons, all of them.

Now the image of every Arab male hiding his wife again goes with your stereotyping. You are aware there is a difference between Egyptian, Jordanian, Qatari, Lebanese, Palestinian, ...etc cultures. In Lebanon for example, women's rights and even gay rights had been highly on the awareness campaigns... did CNN tell you that? Oh I forgot, you live in a tiny box, I should be wrong in such info because I live in the middle of it. Dude, even if you you support all African Americans and Africans, it doesn't mean a crap you are not racist to others. Israel to cover its inhumane side supported the Bosnian Muslims against the Croatian and Bosnian Serb ethnic cleansing. Does it mean the Zionist government is good-hearted? Hell no, they continue to hurt the Jews of the world with their ethnic perspective.

No pictures of dead children are the same? Oh really, so these children are fake? Because it doesn't click to your mind that the IDF is capable of doing so? That is the first breach in your logic, what about the BBC? Hmmmm? Or the UN which clearly claimed that over 300 chidlren had been killed? Is the UN the ally of al-Jazeera, that is the ultimate proof you lack objectivity.

Personally I do not give a damn where is your origin descent, as far as I am concerned, you are a victim for a propaganda, and you need to be emnancipated to realize that people are people are the same everywhere.

Hehehehehe, I thought Marx was voted in England as the most controversial figure three years ago. I read Marx for his ideas, but I also read Benny Morris and Itimar Rabinovich, and the memoirs of the British and US diplomats that expose the reality of what I argue... unlike you, you simply prefer to work Gods/Goddesses and never like to do your investigations ... and unlike your Gods/Goddesses (and I am certain there are very beautiful rituals), we know for a fact Marx existed, along with others whose struggles gave the women the means to emancipate themselves and demand their rights in several locations.... (another historical fact for thee)

My marxist perspective in regards to religion binds me to respect the beliefs of others, but gradually liberate them from superstition, because religion forces people to divide the people... so technically John Lennon's socialist perspective is applicable in that song, unlike Mad Z's Give Peace a CHance by ethnic cleansing... but I agree with you that religion can be a double edge, but my perspective is as stated before...

Oh look Mr. Ban is in Beirut speaking in the Parliament....(will check whatever he will cover up to the blunders of the UN)

However, seeing how dismantled you are currently in without able to defend yourself, I will give you the chance to add me on msn... I have several Israeli Jews on it and we have very nice debates...

But... my advice my dear Pagan is to check the other side, and open up... instead of blindly hating the Arabs and imagine all the women are wearing the veil :)

*pulls Pagan from his corner, pats on his head, and gives him a vodka shot to forget his nightmares

Best Regards
MFL

PS: Renegade, my hotmail is alive again

The Pagan Temple said...

All right, admittedly I probably shouldn't have said some of the things I said, but it's fun to engage in pissing contests with you, like it is certain others. But despite my more objectionable utterances last night, they were no more objectionable than your twisting my words and accusing me of saying things I never said, for example that all Arabs want to blow themselves us, and your accusation of me as racist based on the proposition that I agree mostly with Israel regarding the current conflict.

Again, the definition of "racist" is not "any person that does not agree with Marxist From Lebanon."

I only brought up your Marxism because your devotion to his theories are no different than a religion. The fact that he actually existed as a person is irrelevant. The Gods and Goddesses might well have been based on actual people who lived at one time. Did you ever think of that? More importantly, they represent certain principles that permeate throughout the whole of humanity. I don't necessarily believe in them literally as actually existing entities who really did the things imputed to them in the ancient myths. The truth behind the myths and what they represent and what you can learn from them (including about yourself) is what is important.

I generally don't talk about this stuff on the comments of this blog, but you need to be aware of certain things, since YOU brought them up. My religious tradition does not promote or encourage proselytizing. I don't try to win converts, even on my own blog.

Your religion-the religion of Marxism-is far more akin to the more objectionable aspects of the Monotheistic religions you denigrate, in that regard at least.

Finally, I ask that you cease and desist accusing me of hating all Arabs, because I do not. I have tried to go out of my way in the comments section of this blog to make it as clear as I can possibly make it that I separate in my mind the general Arab population from such things as Hamas and Fatah, organizations which you defend in reality, despite your lip service against them. It might not be your intention to strengthen them, but that is the overall result. Can you see this?

To them, Zionist and Jew is one and the same. They use those terms interchangeably. Or this at least is the case with Hamas. I make no apologies to you or anyone in stating they should be eradicated. So, if I am a racist for that, so be it. I'll wear that badge and smoke that cigar proudly.

Gert said...

To "LWB/Gert's" peace plan I'd like to make two amendments:

Denukification of the future Democratic state of Palestine in return for:

Dismantling of the military part of Iran's nuclear program.

In short, all nukes out of the ME.

Pagan:

"I have tried to go out of my way in the comments section of this blog to make it as clear as I can possibly make it that I separate in my mind the general Arab population from such things as Hamas and Fatah, organizations which you defend in reality, despite your lip service against them."

You can't separate Hamas and Fatah from the general Arab population, both are liberation movements, grass roots in origin, mostly still so. Conservative Meircans have great difficulty understanding what a liberation movement actually is and does. 'Terrorism' does not arise out of a vacuum, unlike the idiot Bush Meircans voted in to trust with the 'nukular codes': it's not because 'they don't like our way of life' or 'because they don't like freedom'. Any imbecile can understand that they fight precisely because they want freedom.

Nor is it for you or me to judge them: we're not Palestinian (G-d only knows what I would want to do to Israelis, if I really was Palestinian).

LONG LIVE MANDELA!

FREE PALESTINE!

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Oh Pagan,
What happened with the aggresive tone now? Seeming apologetic a bit?

Well, you did generalize a lot of things yesterday, and in a way that suits the racist standards, and the oriental standards... finally laughing at pictures of children being used while there over 350 kids killed was another racist joke. In case I don't know better, now you changing the mood from Arabs to Palestinians even though you said "all think the same when it comes to these issues." I didn't twist anything Pagan, I simply highlighted, like what Jon Stewart does, what you said.

In the case of Hamas and Fatah, seeing Abbas selling out his underwear without doing any serious condemnations or what Qatar's Prime Minister exposed yesterday (check my blog in that regards), made Hamas appear the defenders of the Palestinians only. Now, look at it from another perspective, when people compare Hamas to al-Qaeda, that just also pisses me off, because they are totally different, the same with Hezbollah. And mind you, I was on the martyr's square on March 14th 2005, which expelled the Syrians outside Lebanon (unlike to contrary belief that Bush did). You need to dig up the circumstances of their foundation, why they appeared, how they evolved. They are reactive, but they reacted to what?

Even a lot of Hamas and Fatah seggregate between the Jews and Zionists, so do the people of Israel. It will surprise you how much US media blocks joint activities of citizens from both sides that bring a wonderful tear to my eye seeing such people bonding against racism beyond imposed ethnic differences.

As for the Gods, you say may be they were based on real people. It is none of my business who you worship, as long as you are happy with your decision. As for Marx, I love Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Luxemburg, and several others. Actually even Trotsky and Lenin upgraded the thoughts, so did others. It is not a monolithic dogmatic ideas. I even spend my time debating with right-wingers all the time (Lebanon is loaded with them), and also I used to be active in organizing speakers' corners where different sectarian religious parties used to meet up and discuss constructively their ideas.

Now I sense you are beginning to develop a constructive debate with me in a positive manner... My advice is never generalize on certain people or so, that is racism my friend. Even if you do not intend it, your words sure meant it (and trust me, I just took out your words and your chronology, I didn't even follow Anger Management, the movie logic, of Sir! Please Don't Yell).

The base of Communism is based on interaction in order to generate real change. I don't recruit btw on blogs, the comrades in the US should interest you on why you should, as for the topics, you have to keep in mind, I didn't bring them up, certain generalizations you did were shot down by other topics...

So, if you are willing to listen to the 'other side', please do. As I said, feel free to add me on msn, and we can even move it to straight debates instead of essay long texts... since obviously you are interested in relaying your ideas clearly, and vice versa, as I said, I even discuss issues with all people from different backgrounds, and we hold the healthiest debates via msn.

Best Regards
MFL
PS: MarxistFromLebanon@hotmail.com

Mariamariacuchita said...

Ren: A very long but interesting read, esp. including the comments.

In the privileged and simplistic thinking/indoctrination practiced in the US, we have been taught in the popular media that there is always a way to reach "resolution" over conflict and loss (usually requiring some form of personal growth or intensive therapy! :)

What to do with nations when the hurt and loss on both sides has escalated to the point of chronic bleeding wounds, and indiscriminate killing is used as an object lesson (Why now? Israel got its nose bloodied in Lebanon and now needs to prove a point?)

This recent Israeli aggression, (some rationalize it as self-defense) does not appear to be about Israel defending itself, but instead trying to show the world it will react to the aggression of some with terrible and nondiscriminating punishment for all. Among those killed were many children, who never waged war against any.

There is not always an obvious or easy solution to such convoluted and long-standing hatred.
Hatred found on both sides is a venom that seeps deeply into both cultural mindset and individual attitudes.

Sometimes there are compromises that can work.
I like the clarity of your plan.
But the larger question remains whether it can be implemented.

To accept a final plan implies the ability to trust that the other side will uphold its side of the bargain. Are both sides war-weary enough to agree to even a wary ubervigilant bargain?

Who would broker the plan? Where is the peacemaker who could be trusted? Look what happened in the past. Sometimes both sides interfere with the possibility of peace (for their own politicized reasons) or kill the most likely candidates as peacemakers on both sides, i.e. the assassinations of Anwar Sadat from Egypt or Rabin from Israel.

So the question for me is whether either side is ready to seriously accept a proposition such as you have put forth, or simply wants to go to the mat with this and pile up as many bodies as possible.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gert-

Yes, I can separate them, and do. You view Hamas and Fatah as organizations of quite a different stripe than I do. Granted, there might be some individuals such as you described, but the groups in general are in my opinion power oriented.

MFL-

You're still doing it, and trying to defend your actions. Again, I never said "all Arabs want to blow themselves up" for just one example of a fallacious accusation against me. I said nothing that could give you a legitimate basis for accusing me of such a thing, or that I "hate all Arabs".

I also want to point out that in comments such as these, sometimes it becomes unavoidable to speak in generalities. I have already been accused of being "long-winded", can you imagine how long-winded I would seem if I took the time to explain myself in non-general terms. You have to learn to view certain comments in context and as parts of the greater whole.

Mariamaria-

I agree with you that parts of Ren's plan is a good plan-unlike the loathsome one presented by LWB in which Jews are "grabbed by the scruff of their racist necks", and which no one save Ren-including the "tolerant" MFL-bothered to call him out on, btw.

However, it is unlikely to be implemented. For example, the idea of Egypt annexing Gaza as part of a socialist entity. This might work very well, but the Egyptians, I am quite certain, want nothing to do with the Palestinians. More to the point, and more accurately (lest I am accused of "generalising") they want nothing to do with Hamas. Then again, few want to nurture a viper in their bosom.

I question also the need for this to be a socialist entity, not that that would not work, I just don't think that is the only solution.

Mad Zionist said...

There is not always an obvious or easy solution to such convoluted and long-standing hatred. Hatred found on both sides is a venom that seeps deeply into both cultural mindset and individual attitudes.

Maria: Ending hatred has nothing to do with resolving this dispute, and brokering peace is not at all about ending hate. This is a painfully naiive and misguided analysis, I'm afraid.

Hate comes and goes, and as evidenced from the friendly US relationship with Japan today, doesn't begin to heal until the conflict ends decisively. This territorial dispute doesn't end when "hate" is defeated, it ends when the dispute is resolved in battle, when the victor takes their claim and the loser is sent away beaten.

Hate will begin to subside once mission "Annex and Expel" is launched and accomplished, and not one millisecond before that. Since the Jewish State is mightier than the arabs, the onus is on Israel to exact the necessary measures to end the dispute and give peace a chance.

It is very, very obvious, gang.
Peace doesn't come until the dispute is decisively resolved, and it can only be resolved when the loser's vanquished.

It's the way of the world. Let's end the dispute and have a little peace on earth.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: It's natural to want to get people to agree with you. That is different than religious conversion.

Marxism differs from religion philosophically. Dialectical and historical materialism is antagonistic to the idea of faith, which is a form of idealism. Religion believes in eternals, and Marxism believes nothing is eternal.

Gert: If Israel is an apartheid state, where is a Nelson Mandela for Palestine?

Under capitalism the two state solution would leave Palestine a bantu like state. Its economy would be dependent on Israel.

The West Bank will be a place for cheap labor, and Gaza is where capitalism can dump its products.

Maria: It's funny how quickly things can change. At one time not so long ago in the US, there was the belief in all the media, that Republicans will have a 60 year reign.

Who would have thought the police killing a teen in Greece, would cause the country to go into national riots?

In St.Paul over 40,000 people marched for immigrant rights in 2006.

Change comes the moments when the masses decide they have had enough, and become conscious agents of change. After this fight, Palestinians will ask why couldn't Hamas or Fatah defend us? Israelis living standards are going down like everyone's, they'll ask themselves if the military is too fat.

MZ: I answered your question about your 5 point program.

MFL: I'll email you tonight.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Oh Pagan :)

I didn;t do anything, it was your sentences and thoughts that came out that way... Edward Said discusses Orientalism (and read the book btw) of how people exactly like you behave that way without noticing. Refusing to accept facts of casualties or justifying war for others is the same. Actually Egypt wouldn't mind having a mandate over Gaza, after-all they lost it decades ago. But, it is Fatah that wants any force to take over so Abass can preserve control over both entities.

Pagan, generalities are really bad, in regards to anything. When you defend something, and generalize against the opposing side, just read Orientalism.

Bottom line, Israel started the war as "to destroy Hamas", now Hamas will grow more popular than ever. When the butcherer tells the victims to hate Hamas and blame them, he just on purporse empowered them.

Mad Zionist, just keep the word mad in your name, I find it amuzing your way of peace is permenantly get rid of the people, the same people expelled from their homes. Stop giving Jews a bad name... this is not peace, you promote ethnic conflict. It is like Milosevic's logic, ethnically cleanse the Kosovo Albanians, throw them outside and you will have peace. You advocate the real hate, death, and the superiority of one ethnic group over the other and disregarding history because of a silly book

MFL

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Oh Pagan :)

I didn;t do anything, it was your sentences and thoughts that came out that way... Edward Said discusses Orientalism (and read the book btw) of how people exactly like you behave that way without noticing. Refusing to accept facts of casualties or justifying war for others is the same. Actually Egypt wouldn't mind having a mandate over Gaza, after-all they lost it decades ago. But, it is Fatah that wants any force to take over so Abass can preserve control over both entities.

Pagan, generalities are really bad, in regards to anything. When you defend something, and generalize against the opposing side, just read Orientalism.

Bottom line, Israel started the war as "to destroy Hamas", now Hamas will grow more popular than ever. When the butcherer tells the victims to hate Hamas and blame them, he just on purporse empowered them.

Mad Zionist, just keep the word mad in your name, I find it amuzing your way of peace is permenantly get rid of the people, the same people expelled from their homes. Stop giving Jews a bad name... this is not peace, you promote ethnic conflict. It is like Milosevic's logic, ethnically cleanse the Kosovo Albanians, throw them outside and you will have peace. You advocate the real hate, death, and the superiority of one ethnic group over the other and disregarding history because of a silly book

MFL

The Pagan Temple said...

MFL-

My sentences and thoughts did not come out that I "hate all Arabs". That is you making stuff up.

Some of your statements really baffled me for a while, but I think I've caught on to an extent. For example, your questioning whether I am really a pagan is probably based on your assumption that all pagans are "progressives" or "liberal". This would be a very fallacious assumption, therefore who now is speaking in "generalities".

I am not Starhawk. Unlike that fat-ass bitch, you will never see me stand in front of a Palestinian building trying to block an Israeli tank or bulldozer. You will never see me condemning the Israeli government and then complaining because they won't allow me to enter the country like the fucking dumb ass that she is. You will never see me go there or to places during Republican conventions with materials that might be used for bomb making and then whining because the police arrest her while she claims she was only trying to teach "organic gardening".

People such as her do not speak for all pagans, they just arrogantly think they do. Unfortunately, they do speak for most, at least up to a point-but not now and never for me.

I also find it most curious that you two times have mentioned the Byzantine Empire for no apparent reason, and wonder why it is important to you that I know about it. I know about it. It was originally the Eastern part of the Roman Empire and was divided from the western part for mostly bureaucratic reasons, and grew into an empire in its own right.

Are you trying to hint to me that the Arabs were superior because they took them over? If so, I am well aware that they took them over. As for their "superiority", let's look closely at that, shall we? You see, I am also very much aware that the much vaunted Arab "culture" and their so-called "advanced civilization" was actually in fact adopted-some would call it stolen, but I will strive for kindness here-from the Byzantines, among others.

Also, as far as your invitation to join your MSM discussion group, I generally stay away from internet e-mail groups anymore. They are a waste of time. They usually end up with those who disagree being banned, and those who agree merely forming an amen chorus, and then the next thing you know dialog comes to a screeching halt, as what is the point?

I might give it a try, but I probably would be a very infrequent visitor at best.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why Israel should put up with Hamas's bullshit. Are Jews less important than Arabs that Israeli civilians should just have to take their chances when missiles land in their neighborhoods. Or maybe you are saying that if the Jews gave Hamas what they want this would not be an issue. If so, just come out and say that. At least them your protests would be comprehensible.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

I don't believe in eternal concepts either. I think most pagans don't. Unlike the fat-ass, Starhawk, I won't deem to speak for all pagans, but I will say that there is a very large percentage, if not most, pagans who believe in evolution. I don't believe in intelligent design creation by deities. I believe if they exist at all, they themselves evolved like anything else.

As far as conversion goes, that is only for people like fat-ass Starhawk who want to assume pagans should all be of one specific political ideology, which of course would be "progressive". Of course, they want to insist that we should all be "pacifist", which is a vile philosophy. Or that we should be what I can only describe as environmental extremists.

That is the extent of conversion and proselytizing within the pagan community, and it is as damnable a heresy as anything.

Now, as for the Marxist view here, are you sure you don't believe in the eternal when it comes to Marxism. If not, what do you imagine would replace it? You say capitalism evolved from feudalism, and this carries the seeds of its own destruction by creating the working class, etc, and it shall gradually lead to Marxism. Is that it then?

Also, does it reasonably follow that all people everywhere will eventually become Marxist or socialist? Why are you so sure of that? Is this not an "eternal" philosophy in its own right, to be that sure of your philosophy that you just know it's going to come to pass?

Isn't that a "faith-based" concept in it's own right?

Mad Zionist said...

I belly laugh :) everytime our resident arab cries about the imagined "horrors" of transferring the arabs from Israeli territory to the arab lands of Jordan, Egypt, and/or Lebanon.

What a sad joke!

Meanwhile, the same arab talks out of the other side of his mouth how the Jews should be "ethnically cleansed" out of Judea, Samaria and the Golan in the name of peace.

Arabist hypocrites...they think we're that stupid? We should transfer ourselves out rather than transfer out the squatter enemy we defeated in battle? The same arab who was defeated by the Jews should now be handed the spoils of victory?

This is no argument of logic, just a typical arab who can't get over the fact that the Jews pounded his armies, his efforts to drive the Jews into the sea utterly failed, and as the losing side of the dispute has been dwelling like an animal in his own feces: unwanted, even by his own fellow arabs who mock him, hate him, and reject him by keeping him penned in make-shift camps, living in grime and filth.

He is a pathetic gypsy, a people rejected and betrayed by their own kind, forced to live in arab no-man's land without a permanent home, and left musing about a past glory that never really was and a future utopia that will never, ever be.

To be honest, in some ways you are the Jew of exile, the lost one who is not wanted or respected anywhere, and left to suffer the ghetto life with no prospects for improvement as the world stands today.

Of course, the difference here is if arab Palestinians had brains enough to see through the charade, how you're being played the fools by the other arab leaders and countries, you would fight side-by-side with Israel to carve out a homeland for yourselves in Jordan or Egypt, not fight the lost and hopeless war for a land that is taken, for a land that will never be yours, and suffer as martyrs on behalf of the phony friends who hate you much, much more than the Zionists who seek to live in peace.

I pitty the arab palestinian, I pitty them for their stupidity at not recognizing who their real enemies are, and for fighting on behalf of their enemies a war that is designed to never end and that they can never win.

Give peace a chance, support an Israeli initiative to transfer your Palestinian people out of hopelessness and into real home, with a real future, and a real opportunity to live a happy and productive lives in a country that you can call your own.

End the fantasy that you will mystically conquer Israel, and stop playing the fools to the arabs you who claim to be your friends but in reality are your worst enemies.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: The socialists earlier than Marx, were advanced for their time. They lived at the start of capitalism, and didn't know the meaning of the working class. That was because of when they lived.

In another words thinking beyond communism, is beyond anything I can prognosticate, considering my generation.

There is no end to the motion of matter, as there is no start. I believe the big bang is a creationist theory.

The Pagan Temple said...

If the other Arab countries gave a rat's ass about them, such as Egypt for example, they would at least allow them to go back and forth through their shared borders, if only in limited numbers at a time, so they could purchase necessities, visit hospitals, etc. It is not Israel that is forbidding Palestinians from crossing their shared border with Egypt, it is Egypt who prevents this, and this is because of the antics of Hamas and Fatah. I don't blame the Egyptians, I wouldn't let them in either.

Failing the prospect of the Palestinians being granted citizenship in other Arab nations, I have another proposal that might be even better. Why not carve out a territory for them an actual country of their own, in Eastern Europe, someplace that will give them access to the Medittaranean and therefore a decent trade route.

Failing that, why don't the Saudis, in conjunction with the nations of Oman or Yemen, grant them some territory on the coast? How much land would it take to equal the territories they live in now. I doubt seriously the Saudis would miss it, and for that matter, if they are so concerned about them, they should be gladly willing to donate such land to them for the purposes of Palestinian statehood.

If having a state is so important to them, what would be wrong with that? The Saudis and other nations could help them with grants and development aid to make the place fertile enough to support a population. I'm sure the United Arab Emirates would be willing to invest in such a proposal.

No idea like this will be considered though, for the simple fact this is all about Jerusalem, for the most part. That is a sacred city to them, and they are not going to rest until they get it back.

Then, as in the case with all their holy sites, everybody else will be excluded. No Christians or Jews will be allowed entrance. Pieces of the Wailing Wall will probably end up on e-bay.

Representatives of the Palestinian Authority even admitted to this, and looked dumbfounded as to why any would question their rights to impose such restrictions of travel to Jerusalem, back even before the days of Arafat's death.

That's the major sticking point, though there are certainly others, and is the major reason why there will never be peace between these two sides, at least not as long as the Palestinian side of the equation is run by these fanatics.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

If you have a problem conceptualizing what would follow communism, might I suggest you turn to your friend Larry Gambone? I think he might have it all figured out. According to him, back in those long ago days in the beginning of pre-history, mankind seems to have been socialist. Assuming he's right, that would mean that an adaptation to socialism now would amount to the world coming around full circle.

What does that tell you? It sounds to me like universal socialism would be a "back to point A." History should be able to tell you what would follow.

Gert said...

"Gert: If Israel is an apartheid state, where is a Nelson Mandela for Palestine?"

Ren: Apartheid may also come to and end w/o a Mandela but it's hardly too late to find one.

Israel is only at the start of its Apartheid rule, things will have to get worse before the world is willing to intervene.

In the mean time, bar mass expulsions/mass cullings, Palestinians will become inevitably the numerically larger group (the Bourgeoisie always fucks more for pleasure than for procreation). Once that is so, the conditions to peacefully and on an egalitarian basis host the former Jewish masters in a free and democratic Palestine will become a reality.

It would do no harm to look for an Mohammad Al-Mandela in the mean time...

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, "primitive communism" is not the same as the socialism developed from an advanced industrial society any more than the acorn is the oak tree.It is the communal, egalitarian and democratic aspects of pre-class, pre-state societies that are the socialistic aspects of these societies making them the precursor of future socialism.

Larry Gambone said...

Thankfully most Pagans are progressive, "Pagan". Indeed, I have never met one that isn't. What is this thing you have about Starhawk? And why does her weight have anything to do with it? Being obese is an virtual act of patriotism down in the Excited Snakes of America. First thing you notice in France is how trim folks are. That's cause they know how to eat and don't hop in their cars to drive two blocks.

Gert said...

And in case some wonder why I believe in the 'end of Apartheid/bring in a free, democratic Palestine' (OSS), Israel will bring this upon itself: w/o resistance to its colonisation plans a Two State solution isn't worth the paper it's debated on: it won't happen. Only resolute counterforce will stop the colonisers (t'was never different). In the absence of that, Zionists shooting themselves in the foot by living day by day and faced with a demographic nightmare right under their very noses, this will lead to Israul sleepwalking into is own demise...

Larry Gambone said...

Now for a little history lesson on the Byzantine Empire. In the 7th Century AD the empire was divided by religious sectarianism. Constantinople was Trinitarian and Egypt, Syria, PALESTINE and Lebanon were Monophysite. The Monophysites emphasized the oneness of God's nature, putting them in conflict with the Trinitarians who controlled the empire. They were persecuted. So when the Islamic armies showed up on their borders they more or less saw them as liberators (Islam is the ultimate in the Monophysite concept)and the Byzantine Empire lost a big chunk of its territory. Christians remained strong in those countries for years afterwards. Indeed, during the Crusades still about half the Egyptian population were Coptic. And when the crusaders conquered a town they happily massacred all, Muslim, Jew and Christian alike. They saw them all as infidels.

Gert said...

MZ wrote:

"End the fantasy that you will mystically conquer Israel, and stop playing the fools to the arabs you who claim to be your friends but in reality are your worst enemies."

This from a man who in this whole debate starts from every wrong premise possible, wouldn't be able to spot a historic process if it came crawling out of his nose, whose knowledge of history is limited to studying the Holy Texts, whose "peace plan" would attract exactly one vote (his) and who clearly never recovered from when a piece of the WTC landed on his head on 9/11.

beatroot said...

sorry, ren, but the mength of your posts is getting ridiculpus....can;t read that...

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, it don't matter, it don't matter, like Ren says, nothing is eternal. Your pie-in-the sky "progressive" socialism will come to an end just as certainly as feudalism came to an end, and there will be few who will mourn it. That is of course provided it ever comes about in the first place-which is a very damn big if in its own right.

I can very easily believe that you have never met a Pagan who is not a progressive. You probably run with the nineteen sixties crowd. News flash, there are some of us to whom Pagan wisdom does not emanate from so-called "elders", whose so-called wisdom manifests unto us from a fog of pot smoke and patchouli. I am definitely in the minority, but I am by no means alone.

To these sorts, Wicca/Paganism is nothing but a means for them to somehow relive their so-called "glory days" when they engaged in protests, sit-in, love-ins, and other forms of mass circle jerks. It is a way for them to somehow pretend that they are still something that they never truly were-relevant and important. Legends in their own fucking minds.

I compare them to Neil Young-an old geezer who complained that not enough singers were willing to protest these days. Just like some old fart sitting on his front porch chewing his "backer" and waxing poetic about the "good old days"-you know, the days he could get it up just as good as these young whippersnappers.

Paganism, in it's truest form, is not dependent on political affiliation, by its nature it stresses independence and freedom, perhaps the one thing the "progressive" forces of the world, including the pagan ones, have little to no "tolerance" for. No, we should just do as they say or shut the fuck up.

Starhawk is a fat-ass bitch. How funny is that? If she is such an all-powerful magical force, why the fuck can't she keep from stuffing food in her fat mouth? She sure as fuck does't have any problem though preaching on how others should live.

On the other hand, maybe I am being overly harsh. I'll give her credit for one "mystic ability". She has the power to be a one woman human shield in her own right. She can single-handedly stand in the path of an Israeli tank or bulldozer the next time they try to demolish the headquarters of a Palestinian leader, and free up the rest of the nuts for something equally useless and/or self-serving.

I am a free person with a mind of my own. I don't let people like that tell me what to think or do, or believe. If I wanted that I would have stayed Christian. At least the Christians on the right have some sense of morals and ethics.

The Pagan Temple said...

By the way, I find it funny how progressives deny the impact of demographic shift when it suits them, and hold it up as a beacon of hope otherwise. We are constantly told not to worry about the demographic shifts in Europe towards a Muslim majority population, and when this is pointed out, they cry out that this is baseless, racist fear-mongering.

Oh, but not to worry. The demographic shift in the Middle East is going to insure that everything works out fine, as Israel as a result meets its ultimate demise.

Personally, I think the "Mad Zionists" of the world have just been handed a club with which to pound their point home. I personally think I can see the result of such a demographic shift-a nation of Jews straight to the ovens.

The Pagan Temple said...

Of course, a Palestinian style Nelson Mandela would set things right. We wouldn't be holding out hopes for yet another personality cult here, would we? Of course I guess groups of people who aren't used to thinking and living for themselves and are more used to towing the line and being part of the herd need a messiah figure to set things right. That's pretty fucking sad. One thing is not, it's not democratic. It's group think. No truly democratic people are going to follow en masse behind one personality cult.

Larry Gambone said...

"by its nature it stresses independence and freedom, perhaps the one thing the "progressive" forces of the world, including the pagan ones, have little to no "tolerance" for."

Totally and absolutely wrong. You evidently know little of the history of social movements, anarchism and libertarian socialism. The whole struggle is about freedom. Freedom from bosses, politicians, religious fanatics and all other forms of authoritarianism. The problem is, there are few freedoms which are absolute. My freedom might clash with yours depending on where you are in the power structure and how authoritarian or not your belief system is. Thus for the boss class any limitation on their power to dominate and exploit is seen as a limitation of their freedom, but for working people, such limitations are freedoms gained.

Larry Gambone said...

Most of the Pagans I know are young enough to be my children or even grand children. None of them are right-wingers.

Larry Gambone said...

"At least the Christians on the right have some sense of morals and ethics."

I suppose so if greed, hate and war-mongering are considered morals. I don't consider these types to be Christian, if by Christian you mean the Sermon on the Mount. These psychopathic hate cults are the purest form of Satanism you could find. Extreme statement? What else can you call cults that hate, never found a war they didn't love, worship Mammon and want to see the world destroyed.

Mad Zionist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mad Zionist said...

Personally, I think the "Mad Zionists" of the world have just been handed a club with which to pound their point home. I personally think I can see the result of such a demographic shift-a nation of Jews straight to the ovens.

My club is truth, my mission is reality, and I will use these weapons to pound Jew-hating bigots like Gert, LWB and MFL at every opportunity.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, I was talking mainly about "progressive" pagans. They are made up mainly of old men and women who put themselves across as "elders" and join in tandem with all the "progressive" causes such as the "peace" movement and it's fraternal twin "pacifism", and then there are the followers, basically younger folks looking for a cause to follow and something to believe in, while they pretend to act out of some sense of divine inspiration centered on earth spirituality.

To a large degree, many of them (not all) are in it for the sense of community and even for the role-playing aspects. They would be the first to give pagans such as myself the boot from the pagan movement for not following the "correct" philosophy. I've just saved them the problem. I have very little to do with them. I follow my own path.

Don't bother trying to fool me while you're fooling yourself. There are no groups or movements, right or left, that are "tolerant" of opposing viewpoints. Ren and myself are rarities. He wants to encourage a dialectic on this blog. I like to oblige people such as him, as they are rare, and appreciated. I've been kicked out of more pagan groups than I can remember right now, for not agreeing with the common viewpoint. That's not freedom, by any stretch of the imagination. It's just the same old bullshit they pretend to resent from the "oppressive" right and Christians. In reality, they are cut from the same cloth. My way or the highway. Well, I'll take the god damned highway gladly.

Larry Gambone said...

"There are no groups or movements, right or left, that are "tolerant" of opposing viewpoints."

Other than the sects this is BS. Sects by their very nature are intolerant. Most socialists/anarchists do not belong to sects. If we were all so intolerant we would not be able to work together. Ten anarchists = twelve opinions. Yet a thousand of us can get together in a book fair or a demo and get along just fine.

On the other hand, you can't expect people to be tolerant of political enemies, but even there of course, you can expect rational argument and not just insults and mud slinging.

Comparing the left to Christo fascists is a spurious argument.

It is more likely your character flaws that get you kicked out of groups. You come across as overly-opinionated and arrogant and few people are willing to put up with that. Nor should they have to. The fact is you tend to treat people with views different than yours with contempt, even in cases where it is plainly obvious that your opponent knows more than you do. A little humility on your part would make you easier to take.

Here's a little life secret for you. Whenever I find someone who knows more about a subject than I do, rather than sneering at them, I pick their brains.

The Pagan Temple said...

Sorry, Gambone, but you just don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I admit I can come across as arrogant and opinionated, I'll give you that much, but it's only after I have been repeatedly assaulted. I can't begin to count the number of times I've been called fascist, or sexist, or racist, etc., based solely on the expression of my honestly held views and convictions. So much for your views on insults and mud-slinging. I try to be cordial up to a point, but when I get called names, I don't just sit back and take it.

And bear in mind, just as a measure of how tolerant these people are, this has happened not only on groups where I was an ordinary member, but even on a group of which I was and in fact still am a moderator, which is Voting_Pagans, a Yahoo group.

I used to try to make it a point to encourage dissent and discussion, but they got so ridiculous it got to the point it started to actually give me pleasure to ban them. I started inventing reasons to do so, just for the fun of it.

Why? Because it was deemed that I was a racist, sexist, homophobe, and bigot-on my own group, mind you-because I supported Sarah Palin. This even after I went out of my way to defend Barak Obama when I thought he was being unfairly maligned. I finally had enough and put the hammer down.

I've defended other people on the left too when I thought it was appropriate. Just like I've defended Christians, of whom very few whom I have known are "fascists", and this is including conservative Christians.

Sorry, Gambone, but I don't take a backseat to anybody when it comes to "tolerance". Actually, I don't even like that word. "Tolerance" implies the idea of putting up with something that you would rather not have to, but do out of some perceived necessity. I prefer "acceptance". I easily accept there are those who believe differently than I do. What I do not neither accept nor tolerate is the accusation that I am a fascist, racist, or bigot because I don't believe the way they do. That's just the name of that tune.

The Pagan Temple said...

Oh, by the way, there has already been a Nelson Mandela of the Palestinians. You might remember him, his name was Yassir Arafat, and he won a Nobel "Peace" Prize.

Larry Gambone said...

"Why? Because it was deemed that I was a racist, sexist, homophobe, and bigot-on my own group, mind you-because I supported Sarah Palin."

Well, what do you expect? I can imagine what my comrades would think if I all of sudden plunked down for Steven Harper. And I wouldn't blame them in the least. If you are going to make a dumb-ass political choice be prepared to pay the price. I don't know why you would support such a horrible creature, perhaps you are just a contrarian, or maybe you have slipped a cog somewhere.

Larry Gambone said...

"What I do not neither accept nor tolerate is the accusation that I am a fascist, racist, or bigot because I don't believe the way they do."

If you take positions that are also taken by "fascists, racists and bigots", you have to be very clear that you are not one of these from the very start. Indeed, it is very difficult to defend yourself against such charges unless you lay out a lot of qualifiers before hand, which you don't do. You habitually generalize, as in "leftists are as intolerant as "Christians" as but one example of many.

Larry Gambone said...

"To these sorts, Wicca/Paganism is nothing but a means for them to somehow relive their so-called "glory days" when they engaged in protests, sit-in, love-ins, and other forms of mass circle jerks. It is a way for them to somehow pretend that they are still something that they never truly were-relevant and important. Legends in their own fucking minds."

More sweeping generalizations, more bigotry. This is the sort of crap spewed by right-wing radio turds.

"I don't let people like that tell me what to think or do, or believe."

But you sure as hell want to tell the rest of us what to believe.

"Starhawk is a fat-ass bitch."

Duh! Really intelktul critique there Pagan. Like I said before you should see her as a great American patriot for her obesity.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, you being a socialist or anarchist and supporting Steven Harper would be totally inexplicable and totally different than my supporting Sarah Palin, who frankly appeals to my independent streak, while the vicious slurs levelled against her by her political foes show just how dumb her opponents are.

You want to know who her real enemies are? Here's a spelling lesson for you. Their collective name is spelled R-E-P-U-B-L-I-C-A-N. The GOP party bosses are who hated Palin and are who is responsible for the unfounded slurs against her. The Democrats just did their dirty work for them, and are too fucking dumb to realize it.

How many times do I have to tell you that? How many times do I have to point out that it was she who reined in the corrupt GOP political machine in Alaska, and did likewise to the corporate culture of corruption with the oil companies in Alaska. This is precisely the main reason she appealed to McCain, because he thought this complimented his persona as a Maverick, in addition to the fact that he needed a social conservative, and the fact that she was a woman was just gravy.

Why are you so stubborn? Talk about somebody that don't listen to somebody that knows more than them. On this matter at least it is I who have the superior knowledge base, so I am kindly and cordially giving you a chance to "pick my brains".

Just do some research and see some of the things the country club conservatives have to say about Palin, and did from the start. They are scared to death of her, because they are afraid somebody like her would lessen their hold on the Republican Party. I am talking about the moderate McCain wing of the party that controls it now. They look at Palin, and others like her, as a threat. More to the point, they view Palin supporters as a threat to their hold on the party. Those sir are the facts.

But no, that doesn't fit into your playbook of Sarah Palin as an evil fascist, so you don't want to listen to me. Well, too bad. If you would learn to look at things with an open mind, you would see that the moderate wing that controls the Republican Party now is far more of a threat to your ideals than the Palin branch. Why? Because it is the moderate branch currently in control that tends to make up the good old boys Washington network that has kept a death grip on politics as usual in the USA.

It is Palin, and her branch, that tends to lean more to the Federalist view of the Constitution, which while far from being socialist is at least more conducive to allowing for experiments in socialism on a state-by-state basis (or would be if it got a chance for implementation).

Now, do you know why pagans hated her, in addition to the reasons most "liberal" Democrats hated her? Because she is a conservative Christian. Oh, I forgot, that's also another reason most "liberal" Democrats hated her. Yet, you question my assessment of "liberals" as intolerant? In my association with them, they strike me as being the penultimate definition of intolerant.

Bear in mind, Gambone, there was a time, and it wasn't so very long ago either, that I was in many regards as liberal as they are. I possibly agreed with them as often as fifty percent of the time. I look back on those days now and realize, in many regards, just how fucking intolerant I WAS. So I come by my assessments honestly, and by the way with a good deal of humility.

Renegade Eye said...

went to a rally in Minneapolis, against Israel's incursion into Gaza. There was about 200 people there. One person had an antisemitic sign, with the Star of David = Nazi synbol. I was going to confront him, but he always ran. Lo and behold the local Minneapolis rightist blog takes note of the one sign that agitates me.

MFL: When things cool down, a Edward Said 101 post would be good.

Beatroot: It's about time you commented here. Its been a long time.

Pagan: I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure I want to know why, in Minneapolis the many Pagans are involved in, and lead the BDSM community. I was at a Pagan service once at the Unitarian Society. I don't fit in at the services. The BDSM parties are great.

I think you aspire at times to be a redneck. I also believe you have the insight to put the brakes on it.

The neoconservatives declared this period, the end of history. That concept has been going into history's dustbin, with even the author disavowing it. The universe is one of constant change, unity-struggle-unity. The Taoists recognized it in a primitive way before Marxists.

Gert: I think there is merit for Palestinians to ask for one man one vote, freedom of movement in Israel. Even the basic democratic demands, can't be won under capitalism.

Larry G: Graeme gave a talk about his Vietnam travels. It was grim.

I don't give post socialism any thought. Many thought thought the Republican Party will reign for 60 years.

Palin has too many Bushisms.

MZ: I did reply to your five points.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

I am kind of a redneck. It's in my blood. It's not as bad as you think it is. I'm glad you attended a pagan gathering at the UU. They are for the most part good people, they just don't have any sense when it comes to politics. They tend to approach it knee-jerk style, and a lot of the people who strive to be leaders in the pagan community lead them by the nose. They can't control them any other way, so they go the political route.

Pagans should be independent minded, not follow along with the crowd. Otherwise, I don't care whether they are liberal or conservative, as long as they are aware. Most of them are not, or that is the way it seems to me (just in case someone accuses me of generalizing).

No one has commented yet on my variation on MZ's plan. I think a country of their own away from Israeli borders would be a great compromise solution. Give them some land between Oman and Yemen (or somewhere in that general vicinity) on the coast and help them develop it.

Palin is not Bush, nor is she Ronald Reagan with a vagina (Republican wet dreams to the contrary). She is far more independent in almost every way than Bush. Can you conceive of Bush reining in the oil companies, or the Republican Party? Of course, I don't vote religious issues, so her religion is a non-issue with me.

Larry Gambone said...

If the Palin creature is not totally corruptible, that is even worse. An honest fanatic potentially in the White House? Now I am really frightened. At least Bush was cynical about this crap, only using it as a ploy to con the rubes, but someone who sincerely believes in some irrational cult and is incorruptible is really bad news.

Renegade Eye said...

Pagan: Rewrite your plan. I'll reply later.

It's unpredictable one generation to the next. Trotsky's great granddaughter works in Bush's NIH, as a researcher.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren-

It's actually a very simple plan, but it would work. All it would take would be for two or three nations such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and possibly Oman, to donate some land to the Palestinians. Then, they and the world community help them develop the land and create infrastructure to help them get on their feet.

Somebody pointed out to me on Beak's blog that my plan to compensate Palestinian heads of households would cost in the neighborhood of eleven trillion dollars, but one, this could be shared by the world community, including the US and Israel and the EU, in addition to the wealthier Arab nations such as the Saudis; two, it could be spread out over say a ten year period;and three, it would more than repay itself by doing away with the constant war which is consuming so much of the world's attention and resources. Finally it would just be the right things to do. We could quibble over the appropriate amount to pay them.

Mainly, this would give them a country of their own, away from Israeli borders.

These donor countries could easily donate enough land to make up the present day Palestinian territories three times over. They would barely miss it. Saudi Arabia is a huge country, and either Yemen or Oman or both can donate some land as well. Preferably such land would have an appreciable amount of coast land. That's actually the only way it would work. Landlocked nations tend to be at a severe disadvantage with respect to trade.

Like I said, something like this would probably never be considered, as again, the major sticking point is Jerusalem. Muslims consider it one of their three most sacred cities, and they just aren't going to give it up. An appreciable number of them won't rest until it is an all-Muslim city from which Jews and Christians are excluded.

That's the real elephant in the room that will probably serve to insure this issue will never be settled in our lifetimes. It's really the only reason, in my opinion, that so many Muslim nations and people use the Palestinian issue as a club against the Israelis instead of doing something such as I suggested that would actually help them.

Mad Zionist said...

Pagan, the Sinai would be an excellent final resting place for a Palestinian State. It has abundant natural resources, easy logistics for transfer, and plenty of contiguous space for a large population to develop a fully functional country.

The Pagan Temple said...

That's an interesting idea, MZ. There seems to be enough land there they could certainly establish something there without disrupting the native Bedouin population, which is around one and a half million people. I didn't see much in the way of natural resources, but then again, how dependable is Wikipedia? The turquoise mines are about give out, according to that article, and the place is mainly a tourist spot.

Still, with that much land area, and aid for development, and an appreciable amount of coast line to help facilitate trade, that could well be a future Palestinian state.

You should promote that. If the place is as blessed with natural resources as you say, it would seem to me more than adequate. These people could finally have a country of their own, once the problem elements of their society are dealt with, meaning Hamas and Fatah, and others like them.

It is certainly better than expecting them to merely fade into the background of various Arab countries and living at the mercy and whims of those various governments, many of whom I suspect view the Palestinians every bit as unkindly, and suspiciously, as Jews might view them.

Of course the major objection you will find from such a plan will come neither from the Israelis nor from the average Palestinian citizen, but from such as Hamas-and their defenders-who have no intention in reality of ever seeing any kind of peace in this region that does not involve the dissolution of the state of Israel.

I rather suspect one person here will accuse us of trying to offer "blood money". These people don't really want peace, of course, they want a "cause".

Gert said...

Pagan wrote:

"Oh, but not to worry. The demographic shift in the Middle East is going to insure that everything works out fine, as Israel as a result meets its ultimate demise."

Shows how little he knows about Mandela and the anti-Apartheid struggle.

Let me try and spell it out for ya: the end of Apartheid meant the end of a cruel, racist, landgrabbing regime. It didn't mean then end of whites in SA, quite the contrary. Democratic rule for all living there, white, black or other. Boy, isn't that just terrible? Reminds me of, erm, wassitcalledagain? Ah, yes, the US (for instance)...

And Arafat, a Mandela like figure? HAHAHHHAHAHAAAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA (just pissed myself).

You premise, Pagan, is quite clear: the Aa-rats are genetically pre-disposed to murdering Jews. No wonder you get on with MZ...

Gert said...

Personally I think we should relocate half of Washington to Patagonia, where they can start their own state: call it Idiotia or Crapolia... On that train with you too, Pagan (the "freethinker" LOL)

Mad Zionist said...

Pagan, the Sinai is very rich in oil reserves, and was a disaster both financially and in security for Israel to give it away to the Egyptians. It would be pretty tough to run weapons into Gaza if Israel controlled the Sinai, and that oil would have really helped Israel's economy.

That said, if Israel were to annex Gaza and transfer the arabs to their own country in the Sinai the conflict would be effectively over.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gert-

The Nobel Committee seems to have viewed Arafat as somewhat of a Mandela figure, they awarded him the Nobel Peace Prize. In face, he had it in him, he had the potential, as well as the golden opportunity, to be that Mandela for the Palestinians, but he pissed it away.

You and your "progressive" friends are farm more like Arafat than you might care to admit. You're certainly a hell of a lot more like him than I am, or ever could be.

And in the way of a confession, back in my younger and dumber days I used to kind of admired Arafat as someone I thought honestly had the best interests of the Palestinian people at heart, despite his obvious flaws.

Yeah, I am a freethinker. Who is promoting peace here, me or you? You're just promoting the same old shit I can read in any leftist rag. What's the difference. My idea would work, and not cost the life of one innocent Palestinian child. Of course, you don't care about that, you have a "cause" to uphold.

Me and MZ "get on" because we both want the same thing-peace. REAL peace, not just fucking lip service that sounds good but doesn't mean shit.

The Pagan Temple said...

MZ-

If there is oil in the Sinai in any appreciable quantities, I doubt the Egyptians would be willing to give it up. It would be hard to blame them, they aren't exactly among the wealthiest Arab nations as it is.

Gert said...

Pagan:

"My idea would work, and not cost the life of one innocent Palestinian child. Of course, you don't care about that, you have a "cause" to uphold."

Your idea would not only not work, it's never worked anywhere else except where small minorities of natives have been bulldozed over by large numbers of better armed colonists (usually Whitey - sigh).

You keep getting repetitive stress syndrome from all that tapping away, yet just like MZ your "plan" isn't borne out of any reality, past, present or future.

Whether you like it or not, transfer of the Palestinians to wherever would set the entire ME on FIRE! The Arabs have already suffered two Nakbas at the hands of the Israelis and now you propose to solve the problem by adding a third one to the list of grievances???? An imbecile can see the obvious flaw in that "plan".

And why on Earth should the Palestinians give way to the new Herrenvolk? What other designs will the new Herrenvolk have on the ME? MZ was in the past in favour of a "Jewish Empire" (his words) "from the Nile to the Litani", whaddayathink to that?

How many more precedents do you want to create where one people simply steals the land of another and gets rewarded for that?

My advice, pal: when in a hole, stop digging...

The Pagan Temple said...

We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about setting them up in their own nations, where they can elect their own governments, establish their own policies, free from interference, conduct their own trade and diplomatic relations. You're talking about it as though I'm proposing to send them to a reservation. This would be their own land, given to them expressly for the purpose of establishing their own nation. We can quibble about where that might be. I suggested a combo of lands given them by Saudi Arabia and either Oman or Yemen, or both, with the international community helping them with grants and low interest loans for purposes of development.

You're right, though, it probably will never work, not because the plan isn't good, but because there are too many other people intent on seeing the status quo continue as is.

Your right about another thing, I am suffering from an apparent case of "repetitive stress syndrome" but if comes from seeing this same shit go on year after year after year, and seeing the same old shit fail time after time at making any real progress. What I propose has a better chance than anything I've heard yet. Nothing else can or will. At least I'm trying to offer something different that at least would have a chance of working, something that would end the decades of ceaseless never ending war.

Did you never wonder why it is that any time "pacifists" get involved in any kind of peace negotiations, the results usually end up being anything besides peace, or some other problem just as bad if not worse. Put two and two together.

Waxing poetic about peace doesn't mean shit if you don't have the ability (or the gumption) to actually do what's necessary to bring it about.

Mad Zionist said...

Pagan, New Palestine must either be carved out of Egypt, Jordan or both. The arabs in Gaza and the Jordan Valley mostly come from these lands, and both are connected directly to the Palestine mission.

Remember, Jordan was originally to be the "arab Palestine", and most of the arabs dwelling in Judea/Samaria are in fact Jordanian. To repatriate them a few short miles would be relatively easy logistically, and logical based on cultural/national connections to that land.

Sinai, as we've discussed also has many of these pluses, too. A lot of options to consider, but they all involve what must be done to create peace: TRANSFER.

Larry Gambone said...

Your plan won't work because no one is going to tolerate such a level of ethnic cleansing. If nothing more, out of pure self-interest ie OIL. It also sets a terrible precedent - shift "inconvenient" peoples around at the will of more powerful forces.

Larry Gambone said...

At the risk of going off-topic again, I really have to deal with what Pagan wrote earlier. His argument that progressives are as bigoted as pseudo-Christians is spurious. It is a bit like saying Jews are bigots for hating Nazis or rape victims for hating their violators. It is not like the pseudo-Christians ignore the rest of us and we hate them for their beliefs alone. No, they seek to impose their ideology on the rest of us. We do not wish to force abortions on them, make them read books they abhor, listen to music they hate etc., but they try to force their ways on us. In both Canada and the US they are a vanguard of political and social reaction, and seek to use government to impose it. The pseudo-Christians are oppressive, that is why we despise them. Groups with “fundamentalist” views, yet which don't seek to impose them on others, such as the Amish and Hutterites, are not disliked by anyone on the left, indeed are admired by many.

Mehmet Çagatay said...

I heard Pagan's concrete plan from another "free-thinker" (there are no free-thinkers except psychotics btw). He is Sheldon Cooper, one of the great minds of the NBC series "The Big Bang Theory". In the certain episode where he lost his belief that one day he will be honored with Nobel Prize in physics, he makes a desperate attempt to win the prize in the Peace category, therefore he proposes a fully practical solution to the eternal Jewish question for the sake of permanent peace in the Middle East. His proposal was to create a "New Jerusalem" in the Mexico desert where Jews would peacefully build their own nation. Fortunately for Jews, he decided to take up again his research in physics after his academic adversary suddenly abandoned physics to pursue hedonistic pleasures.

Mad Zionist said...

Larry, your analysis of bigotry is erroneous. Every bigot, both on the left (Gert) and the right (Storm Front) justifies their bigotry by twisting reality to fit their prejudice. Every bigot claims they only hate those who are evil and deserve it, so for you to claim that the left hates for the "right reasons" while the right hates for the "wrong reasons" is a biased, naiive judgment.

As to your criticism of "shifting populations", well, if a person wants to be a US citizen doesn't he have to become an American and pledge allegiance to the country? It would be a bit odd for the United States to grant citizenship to an applicant who didn't recognize the right of America to exist, wouldn't it?

Well, in the Jewish State would it not be equally absurd to allow people to become citizens who not only aren't Jewish, but openly have contempt for the country and don't even recognize the right for the Jewish state to exist?

Utopians think that everyone will just get along if the arabs flooded into Israel and the Jewish State was abolished for a State of All Peoples. Bull sh-t. The majority arabs would run the Jews into the sea and declare it an arab state under Sharia Law, just as it says to this day in the charters of both Fatah and Hamas!

Transferring enemies of the state a few miles away while granting them generous compensation is the only moral solution.

Give real peace a chance: Annex the land and Transfer the arabs.

The Pagan Temple said...

Okay Gambone, now who's "generalizing"? News flash, most Christians don't give a rat's ass what you believe or don't believe. They don't want you forcing your views on them anymore than you want the opposite. I've been trying to tell people that for I don't know how long, and it never sinks in.

Most Christians just don't want the federal government involved in these issues. Granted, there are far too many of them that do, but you are the one lumping them all in together as one neat little package for you to hate. Just so you know.

Why do you think any reasonable person-not just Christians, but any-are going to sit back and put up with people giving their teenage daughters abortions without their permission, and for that matter without their knowledge?

Why should Christians just sit back and take it when the views of other religious groups are not only tolerated, but celebrated, while they are expected to keep their beliefs to themselves?

Are they supposed to just sit back and applaud when they are portrayed in the media-both entertainment media and news-as intolerant bigots and ignorant rednecks, without apparent exception? Do you really think they are all that much alike? That is the height of bigotry on your part.

I have given you several times now valid and proven reasons why Sarah Palin is not the cardboard cliche wingnut you insist on portraying her as, and for all my trouble, what do I get?

"If the Palin creature is not totally corruptible, that is even worse. An honest fanatic potentially in the White House? Now I am really frightened. At least Bush was cynical about this crap, only using it as a ploy to con the rubes, but someone who sincerely believes in some irrational cult and is incorruptible is really bad news."

This is of course the height of bigotry, and assumes facts not in evidence, to wit that she is not only a right-wing religious fanatic, but will if given the opportunity try to govern in such a way as to force those views on others, even the whole country-a supposition which on the face of it is the absolute height of absurdity.

You'd really better be careful Gambone, you are starting to become as much of a cardboard cut-out cliche joke of the left as you insist on viewing seemingly any conservative Christian as representative of that group. People here for the most part might think its cute and applaud your intolerance, but it's really sad in my opinion coming from someone who likes to rant about others bigotries and intolerance.

Yeah, there are intolerant Christians, far too many of them, and I have called them on it plenty of times. Just for one example, when they started their crap over the Reverend Wright with Obama, I quickly reminded them that their own favored preachers have an unfortunate habit of proclaiming "God damn America" their own selves, like for example over abortion. It didn't go over too well and I got the silent treatment for a month, but oh fucking well.

Facts are facts, and the facts are, sir, if you want to see the biggest most intolerant bigot that you know, you evidently need look no further than your bathroom mirror.

Bottom line, tolerance and acceptance are two way streets, and if you want to receive it, you had damn well be willing to give it, even to those-actually especially to those-whom you imagine you have the most reason to dislike. Otherwise, what the fuck good is "tolerance" to begin with. It's not worth a fucking shit, in my humble opinion.

Larry Gambone said...

Evidently you don't read too well do you Pagan? It is precisely the intolerant politically organized "Christians" that I am talking about. I mentioned others like Amish, Hutterites and I could add Jehovas Witnesses, Mennonites and others as well who do not try to politically force their views on others. No one cares about what people think. It is only when they seek to force it on the rest of us that we get up set. Why do you insist upon creating this straw man argument?

Gert said...

Pagan wrote:

"Give them some land between Oman and Yemen (or somewhere in that general vicinity) on the coast and help them develop it."

It's the same old plan: forced relocation.

Pagan, if burglars broke into your house, chucked you and your family out into the streets and declared: "piss off, it's ours now!", would you:

a. Take it lying down?
b. Resist your dispossession tooth and nail?
c. Accept an offer to be re-housed somewhere else?

The vast majority of people would resist but also seek compensation from the perpetrators. And rightly so... The rest is claptrap.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ooooh, okay, Gambone, I get it now. There are some conserative Christians that are acceptable, like for example, The Amish. They are all good. Then there are others-like, for example, the Southern Baptists-who are all bad. Okay, I see now.

Yes, I see all too well.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gert-

That's exactly what I'm suggesting-compensating them, with their own country, one that would be freely given over to them. Look at how much land the Saudis have that is unpopulated. Any land can be developed given the right care, and aid from the international community.

Look at it this way. As terrible as it was that the original Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes (I never would have supported that back at the time that happened, by the way), how many of them are alive now? Most Palestinians have never had their own homes outside of what they've known within the Palestinian territories. This would be a fresh new start and a chance for a brand new future for a people who have never had anything except misery and despair, and repression (as much from their "leaders" as from the Israelis, if not more so).

Mad Zionist said...

Interesting premise by our resident anti-Semite. Since he is now a member of Hamas, does not recognize Israel's right to exist, does not believe the Jews ever have had any legitimate claims or rights to the land, and that all the accusations made by the arabs are true while all the responses by the Jews are lies, what more can be said?

Um...here's a little history lesson for Gert the National Socialist:

Jews came to the land and acquired it legally. The Jews were attacked by anti-Semites like Gert, and frequently were murdered in pogroms. The Jews fought back successfully, and multiplied. Brits like Gert tried to stop the Jews from coming to Israel by creating a White Paper preventing them from escaping Germans like Gert who were putting Jews in extermination camp ovens by the millions.

Jews outsmarted arabs like Gert and prospered. Brits like Gert fought alongside arabs like Gert, who were aligned with Germans like Gert, against the Jews, who had just been exterminated by the millions by Germans like Gert.

The Jews defeated Gert the Brit and Gert the arab, and were granted a nation of their own despite Gert's anger, though it was divided up into absurdly small and disjointed parts compared to the original allotment.

Jews were then immediately attacked by 6 arab nations like Gert, who intended to kill all the Jews and steal their wealth. Gert the arab attacker told Gert the arab residents that they should flee so that they could more easily exterminate the Jews and give them part of the loot. The arabs like Gert were thrilled at the thought of this and left with joy and anticipation.

Gert's armies were incompetent fighters, and the Jews delivered a humiliating defeat. In response, Gert's arab countries declared another war a few years later, were defeated yet again, and expelled their Jewish populations, nearly a million all told. these Jews subsequently moved to Israel.

Now, Gert the defeated and humiliated arab is angry that the Jews were successful, that he didn't succeed at exterminating them, and now he wants to be given reparations and the land even though he lost all the wars. Gert the arab now calls the Jews Nazis and accuses them of stealing.

Gert will only be happy when the "Nakba" (i.e. the Jews were somehow not exterminated) is redeemed, and is concocting the scenarios to make that possible.

As a Jew, my mere existence is disturbing to him. He blamed me for killing Jesus, he blamed me for usury, he blamed me for the black death, he blamed me for conspiring to steal the world's wealth, he blames me for lobbying to take the world's resources, and he blames me for not assimilating out of existence altogether so the world can once and for all be without the dirty Jew that always is the fly in every Utopian ointment.

To that, I say Gert can drop dead. I will never give in, I will never lay down and die, and I will fight to the death to crush the Gerts of the world at every turn.

Am Yisroel Chai.

The Pagan Temple said...

MZ you left out Gert the Leftist Liberal Democrat who talks out of both sides of his mouth while pretending to be tolerant. There sure are a lot of dirty little Gerts in the world. HaHaHaHaHaHaHa.

Renegade Eye said...

Gert: I don't think Pagan or MZ understand what you are advocating, or the revolutionary implications. Tell me if I understand correctly.

Nobody will be able to say Palestinians oppose the right for Israel to exist. They would be saying they not only support Israel, but want to be part of it, as equals. Since Gaza and the West Bank are like bantu areas, it would resemble the South African experience in that matter.

The nationalist arguments would be discarded.

I think that beats the heck out of the two state theory. It would take different leadership than Hamas or Fatah, who want a fiefdom.

It could only be won with socialism.

Mehmet Çagatay: I used your comment to make fun of Beakerkin at another blog.

Pagan: Gert is correct that the world wouldn't accept any mass relocation of Palestinians. The idea would die, because Israel is considered by the world an occupation force, beyond the 1967 borders.

It is as realistic as what Mehmet Çagatay said.

I doubt if you want to deal with Biblical arguments.

MZ: You once argued Israel was promised more land by the British Mandate, than what was received. British imperialists lied!

You are putting words in Gert's mouth. Gert can tell the difference between Jew and Zionist.

I've never read anything by Gert attacking Zionism as a philosophy.

I think Zionism failed. It was supposed to provide security and strength for Jews. Israel is the most dangerous place to be Jewish, and Israel depends on Gentiles from the US for much of its budget. It has little say in its own policies.

Larry Gambone said...

You are the bigot Pagan. You simply have to maintain your little fantasy that the left is as hateful as the fundis. I will try one more time. People don't like to be threatened. Sometimes the fears are irrational like those of anti-Semites, but in this case they are not. Certain politically-involved right-wing alleged Christians seek to obliterate the victories of the 1960's, seek to impose their repressive world views on us and support the most retrogressive and militaristic section of the ruling class. They threaten the left and make no bones about it. Read that again. THEY THREATEN THE LEFT AND MAKE NO BONES ABOUT IT. Other fundi sects only wish to be left alone. They don't threaten anyone. Therefore no one hates them. JW's are as fundi as you get but who hates 'em? I don't. Now do you understand?

The Pagan Temple said...

You're still generalizing Gambone. All members of specific fundamentalist sects don't all believe the same. There are quite a few of them for example that believe in Global Climate Change and think they should fight it. That's more a leftist position. There are some, for example Mike Huckabee, that while they are conservative on social issues, take a far more liberal stance on economic issues. They are not all the same on all issues. You are going by a few hotheads, and a few people on the left who react to them.

Many if not most of them just don't believe government should be involved in a federal level on things such as abortion. They just happen to take a conservative view of the constitution. That's fine, so do I, maybe that's why I understand them. They just don't like big government bureaucracies controlling people's live from the top down.

In a lot of ways they actually believe more like you, in local control and stuff like that, or in states running their own affairs. For example, they want Roe v Wade overturned in large part because they think states should have control over abortion policy. Sure, theres some that want the federal government to take the opposite stand, but for the most part, they just want the federal government out of their lives except where the constitution explicitly gives them power.

They are not all the loathsome creatures you imagine they are in your fevered delusions, who want to force you and everyone else to live by Biblical principles. If I thought they were like that I would be against them myself. Granted, some are, but they are and always have been a minority.

It's the left for the most part-and here I'm not necessarily talking about socialists and so-called anarchists like yourself and Ren, but people such as the Democratic Party (especially the liberal wing of it) and the Greens who are more exactly the kind of people you perceive all people on the right to be. Those are precisely the kind of people who want to empower big government to rule, not lead, from the top down and control all aspects of society in a bureaucratic way.

I personally would gladly take my chances with the right, for all their faults, than I would that left any day of the week.

I would think that you would understand that, but I guess you've come down with the Obamabot fever these days. Well, good luck with that. But just to be clear, in case I haven't been so far, it's the liberal wing of the Democratic Party which I find most objectionable. You guys are not even in the game in any real way. Get some power by way of local elections, and we'll see what you have to offer and if it works.

Until then, don't imagine there is a whole lot of difference between the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the moderate wing of the Republican Party-which is the controlling branch of the party, and is NOT the Palin wing.

I'll give you a clue, once Obama takes office, John McCain will very likely be one of the best friends he has.

Renegade Eye said...

The problem is our blogs attract the most extreme positions. I have a rough time getting moderates to take part in discussions.

Reaganism is dying, and the right is in retreat.

The left today is not the left of the 1960s, that was really revolutionary and bold.

Both the right and the left are like drunks. I hope to bring sobriety.

Mad Zionist said...

Gert can tell the difference between Jew and Zionist.

Exactly what is the difference, Ren? I would enjoy hearing your answer. Dr. King himself proclaimed that anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism. You simply don't have a very good education on what it means to be Jewish, Ren.

I've never read anything by Gert attacking Zionism as a philosophy.

Then you haven't been reading anything he writes. He openly proclaims himself to be an anti-Zionist, both here and on his site. Ask him yourself if you don't believe me. He refers to Zionism as Apartheid and considers the creation of Israel "The Nakba".

Just like Nazis, he parodies Jews on his site as blood-thirsty animals, replete with mock Yiddish accents, killing helpless arabs for sport. He is an absolute bigot, no different than the Jew-haters on PA television using bunny and mouse characters to demonize the Jews to children.

John Brown, LWB and Gert all are the same...they are militant Palestinian activists who simply hate Jews. Remember, most anti-Semites will substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" when preaching their hate to make it more palatable to the masses. Gert is no different, and knows I can see right through him.

Gert said...

Ren, MZ, Pagan:

Here's what Olmert said recently:

"Ehud Olmert recently said, Israel will “face a South African-style struggle” if the Palestinians do not get a viable state of their own. “As soon as that happens,” he argued, “the state of Israel is finished.”"

Good, he gets it (but he didn't do anything about the settlements either, nor did he make any progress towards the two state solution).

The point is that without mass expulsions/mass cullings (of Palestinians) OR a state for Palestinians, Israel will soon find itself with a mass (and probably majority) of stateless Palestinians locked down in unconnected reservations ('townships' or 'bantustans'), riddled throughout the land the Herrenvolk (the Zionists) have expropriated since 1967. That, my friends, is de facto (if not de jure) Apartheid and the only real hope the Palestinians have because Zionist Apartheid will go exactly the same way as SA Apartheid: towards simple, democratic rule by majority, because the world will not stand for another SA. Israel will then be finished in the sense that its purely Jewish character will be lost.

But in the FREE and DEMOCRATIC PALESTINE, my Palestinian and Jewish brothers and sisters will be able to live in peace and cooperatively, as in any normal, non-racist, non-zionist state.

Damn, it took me 20 years of listening to Hasbara to figure this out: unopposed the Zionist project is racing towards its own demise. As such, the project is an abject failure: a 20th century neo-European Colonial project, past its peak and rushing down the slope of decline.

ETA for a Free Palestine? 10 - 30 years, no more.

Madze, deep down you know I love you (and if you were a woman I'd want to have your babies!) Your Jew-hating allegations are extended towards anyone who doesn't accept your Biblical endlosung, so forgive me for not being impressed by your slander, no one else here seems impressed by it either.

Pagan: you're a well-meaning imbecile.

Ren: explain in a few words where socialism would come into it. Seriously, I'm interested.

FREE PALESTINE!

The Pagan Temple said...

Gert-

That's all right, I'll forgive your unwarranted insult, as there have been well-meaning imbeciles who have been judged favorably by history, such as Claudius, and those who will be so, such as George W. Bush.

No law that I know of says the Israelis absolutely have to remain in Israel/Palestine if the day ever comes to that. I have this strange idea that if it ever came down to it, they would leave in droves. As for those who might choose to remain, I won't conjecture on what their ultimate fate might be, but I would not be hopeful.

Those who leave will find a place somewhere. Who knows, maybe they can buy some land in the Mexican desert. Wherever they end up, I'm sure they will thrive. A country is where it's people are, not where a geographical location is designated on a map. Of course, that is just my imbecilic opinion.

Mad Zionist said...

Gert, while I appreciate your desire to bear my children, I stand by everything I said. Nothing I said was "slander", you are a self proclaimed anti-Zionist, you do refer to Zionism as racism and apartheid, you do consider the creation of Israel the "Nakba", you don't recognize Israel's right to exist, you do advocate for flooding Israel with millions of arabs to end the "Zionist experiment", and you do promote all the lies and propaganda we see from terrorist groups like Hamas and Fatah.

In short, you really do hate Jews even if you don't believe it yourself.

Do the math:

1. You consider Zionism racism
2. You don't recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.
3. You consider Jewish religious and historic claims to Israel invalid, and oppose them.
4. You oppose Jewish self-governance and advocate for Jews to lose their identity and assimilate.
5. You consider hatred of Zionist Jews valid, and consider the arab violence against them justified.
6. The overwhelming majority of Jews in the world are pro-Israel, which means, by default, you hate the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world.

This seems pretty convincing, Gert. Oh, and by the way, about your idea that I only consider those who aren't religious Jews anti-Semitic...total libel on your part. I don't consider Ren an anti-Semite, and I don't consider Pagan an anti-Semite. Neither of them are anything close to religious Zionists, but neither of them are towing the terrorist line, either.

Let's put it this way: If you consider the creation of Israel the "Nakba" you are irrefutably an anti-Semite.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagans said "All members of specific fundamentalist sects don't all believe the same. "

I said "Certain politically-involved right-wing alleged Christians..."

Where is the difference?

Pagan, you are trying to make me appear to take a position I don't take in order to win an argument. For the umpteenth time I do not lump all fundis together, even within the individual sects. I am only talking about the people who are actually involved politically and take reactionary stances.

But you are white-washing them as they are certainly more than a few "hot heads", but of course, less than paranoid liberals think. Here in Canada reactionary fundis form the core group of supporters of the right-wing Conservative Party.

Larry Gambone said...

Ren says, "The problem is our blogs attract the most extreme positions. I have a rough time getting moderates to take part in discussions."

I don't think the problem is the positions themselves, so much as the way they are argued, though one could make the claim that extremists habitually argue in a belligerent and fallacious manner. I for one have thought about dropping from this blog in frustration.

Larry Gambone said...

One thing that would help discussions would be if people would ask questions as in "what do you mean by so and so?" rather than always imputing positions, which inevitably leads to the formation of armies of straw men.

Mad Zionist said...

What do you mean by that, Larry?
(Sorry, couldn't resist).

Gert said...

Pagan:

"A country is where it's people are, not where a geographical location is designated on a map."

True, but in the end people usually choose a place in which they feel they have roots. Early Zionists hadn't decided on Palestine as first choice either: Patagonia (Herzl) and Uganda had also been earmarked as possible destinations. In the end Zionism chose Palestine because of the historical connection (contrary to Madze's blather I've never - and still not today - denied that connection). Such roots, real, imaginary or a bit of both, serve nationalists extremely well to create a cohesive Nationalistic narrative (a Genesis, if you will). This serves Israel well, even secular Jews (and Israelis) buy into it, even if it's quite schmalzy (most nationalistic narratives are).

Gert said...

Madze:

Jews, Arabs, whites, blacks etc are as much my brothers and sisters as any other ethnic group (I accept Evolutionary Biology, remember?), it just so happens that on the Jewish side of the family there are quite a few that behave like the criminally insane (now and over the past 40 or so years). These I don't like at all. They, incidentally will cause the demise of Israel as a Jewish state, not me. But if Apartheid really begins to hurt I'll give those who want to tear down to walls and the house of cards a hand. Gladly...

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, you're acting like a cry-baby. Who was it who called who arrogant, acting like a fascist, or who accused the other of making dumb-ass political choices, and who accused the other of telling other people what to think? Since when is expressing my views, like you and everyone else here, tantamount to "telling others what to think"? Is this what you do when you express your views?

Who accused the other of generalizing, and then turned right around and did just that?

Now you're saying that you never meant to lump all fundies together, "even within the individual sects", but that is precisely what you did. You pointed out groups that were acceptable to you, naming them by name, including Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish. The obvious implication to that is there are some fundamentalist sects that don't so readily meet your approval.

What you have to grasp is that I come from a conservative Christian background. I was born and raised surrounded by them. I think I know them better than you, so once again, feel free to "pick my brains". Most of them are decent, law-abiding people who want the same thing most other people want, to build a good life for themselves and their families. They have honest disagreements with others, and for that matter WITH each other, as to how best to go about that. They are not savage, blood thirsty monsters on average. This goes not only for the rank-and-file Christian, it goes for their leaders as well.

Does that mean there aren't some bad apples, and some hypocrites? Of course not, there are far too many of them, just like there are far too many arrogant, elitist leftists who like to think they have all the answers-if I might be so bold.

And who are you to decide if the political choice I make is a "dumb-ass" one. Really, isn't that for me to decided? At least when I make a political choice, I look at all the evidence and relevant information. For YOUR information, I was not going to vote for McCain before he picked Palin. I wasn't going to vote at all.

You have a right to dislike Palin and give your views against her, I would be the last person to say otherwise. However, when I reply as to why I consider her a worthy choice, you ignore everything I say and come up with some crap about religious fundamentalism. You're the one that brought that up in the context of my voting prerogatives. Everything I said about her you totally ignore, as though it were either a lie or irrelevant.

In fact, you ignore pretty much everything else I say, and then accuse me of making stuff up just to win an argument. This is a discussion, a comment section, I don't hold out any hope of "winning".

I'm just picking your brains. Evidently these last few days I seem to have dug into your inner child. I'm hoping eventually I run into the Gambone I first met. I kind of miss seeing him around.

Mad Zionist said...

Jews, Arabs, whites, blacks etc are as much my brothers and sisters as any other ethnic group.

Gert: While Jews are a nation and a people we are not a race. Jews can be dark like arabs or blacks, and they can be pasty white with red hair and freckles. Any person of any race can become a Jew if they wish, but nobody can convert from white to black no matter how hard they may try (even Michael Jackson).

...on the Jewish side of the family there are quite a few that behave like the criminally insane...These I don't like at all.

So, you merely hate Judaism and Zionism but like Jews. What do you like, exactly? Seems the only way Jews can be accepted in your world is by rejecting their religion and renouncing their claims to the Land of Israel.

In short, ceasing to be Jews is the ticket for Jews to garner your favor and be accepted by the world.

What you're saying is that Anti-Semites believe that Jews are genetically inferior or evil, while Jew haters like yourself just hate the fact that these otherwise perfectly normal humans practice a criminal ideology of hate and differentiation. So long as Jews are willing to cease being Jewish you'll have no problems with them at all, which is exactly what persecutors of the Jews have been saying since the time of the ancient Greeks.

Your views are not new, they were used to demonize Jews centuries before Jesus and will undoubtedly be continued for many generations still to come.

Gert said...

Madze:

Yours are religious arguments, I'm agnostic and non-Jewish. You're talking "apple", I'm talking "orange".

Jews can be Jews (no matter how you want to define that) wherever they are, including in the future homeland of Free Palestine. White Americans will not become less white or disappear when they are no longer the demographically dominant group either.

I had no problem with a predominantly Jewish Israel until it turned out it wanted to become Arab-free at the expense of a population that is was also indigenous to the region.

" which is exactly what persecutors of the Jews have been saying since the time of the ancient Greeks."

... is complete nonsense. Anti-Semitism is rooted in anti-Judaism: the result of a religious schism. When Christians became the dominant religious denomination in the ME and the Roman Empire (Constantine: thanks for nothing!) baptised, Jews became persecuted. Entire myths were then woven just to prove how pernicious Jews really were [not, of course] and these myths came to pervade the mainstream, to a point were even some atheists accepted it as valid.

But if the self-determination of one people has to come at the expense of another, then that nationalism must accept counter-fire.

Larry Gambone said...

Pagan, you immediately assume that I am not nuanced enough to distinguish amongst fundis within their sects. You jump to conclusions in other words.

Where did I say you were a fascist? As for arrogant, here is what I did say. "You COME ACROSS as overly-opinionated and arrogant..." There is an important difference there.

You do generalize. We all do to a certain extent, but for you it is constant. My general rule of thumb for discussion was not specifically aimed at you, but is more of an ideal for all of us to follow.

Your choice of Palin is a dumb ass one if you wish to associate with progressives. The fact is Pagan, you are not a died-in-the wool reactionary. If you were, Palin would be a perfect choice.

I stand by my statement that you are a bigot, at least in regards to leftists, progressives, "hippies" etc. You expect me to be nuanced about Fundis - which I am and have pointed it out at least 4 times - but you refused to be nuanced about those you disagree with, or at least you statements give that impression.

Mad Zionist said...

If the self-determination of one people has to come at the expense of another, then that nationalism must accept counter-fire.

OK, so since all nations are bordered and have rules and criteria about how to qualify for citizenship, this means you are equally offended by the existence of all countries. Keeping out enemies, immigration laws, and standards of loyalty for achieving citizenship are all forms of oppression.

If you want a state to just be for all people without rules than we can just create a world of anarchy and let it fly. Then again, anarchy would hardly lead to peace...chaos never does.

You have two sets of standards: one for Jews and one for everyone else in the world. Every other army in the world who wins a war of independence is entitled to name their country and make their rules for citizenship, except the Jews.

Jews cannot have a state of their own, or enjoy self-determination, because...they are Jews. Islamic lands, check. Europeans, check. Asians, check. Jews, no.

Jews fought, shed blood, and won their war of independence to possess their homeland. They build a very successful nation out of a barren wasteland, endure multiple wars from their surrounding enemies, and endless terror from the enemies within, and your view of this is that the Jews should give back everything they fought so hard and suffered for, give it back to the same people that have been terrorizing them, and invite in all their bitter enemies to flood the country, eliminate the existence of a Jewish State, rename it Palestine, and take over as their task masters.

It would be funny if it wasn't so transparently hateful and bigoted.

Larry Gambone said...

You have your experience with Fundis, Pagan, I have mine. The first "political" essay I wrote when I was 16 (1962) was defending a local university professor from politically organized fundi bigots. He had given a lecture on atheism and they sought to have him fired. Later when involved in the "Ban-the-Bomb" movement, this same group attacked us. Then in 1968 they supported the censorship of the "underground" press. I could go on and on, but the point is made. Even way back then, I knew that not all self-styled Christians were the same, since I kept running into them all the time as members of the anti-war movement.

Gert said...

Here are the brave boys from the AOF, diligently working towards Greater Israel (not in Gaza). How effectively and heroically they point their guns at innocent, unarmed people...

Gert said...

Madze:

Had Israel kept to its assigned borders and allowed for a Palestinian State to be formed on the remainder of Palestine and not foolishly pushed further and further into that territory, we wouldn't be sat here talking about this. The Arabs would always have seen Israel as a humiliation but they would have lived with that.

But the colonisers weren't happy: they wanted more and more, and facing little opposition (and much support) got more and more.

In history, the vast majority of colonisers have either had to seriously curb their enthusiasm, if not actually retreat from their conquered lands and hand them back to the previously vanquished. See British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, etc etc etc etc.

If tomorrow, say Belgium, decided it too had a need for lebensraum, and successfully invaded Holland and unceremoniously dumped all Dutchmen across the border ("Pff... Zeir 'fellow Europeans' will take care of zem. Ve, ze Uunique People of Belgium can do vat ve vant!") all hell would also break loose. In fact the pandemonium caused would be very similar to what we see in the ME. Guess the Holy Book doesn't teach you about historical processes, huh?

The exceptionalist here is you Madze, not me. It's you who want to elevate the Jewish people to a pedestal way above all the rest.

Mad Zionist said...

Gert, this short video should help you understand:
Letter to the World

The Pagan Temple said...

Gert-

"Had Israel kept to its assigned borders and allowed for a Palestinian State to be formed on the remainder of Palestine and not foolishly pushed further and further into that territory, we wouldn't be sat here talking about this. The Arabs would always have seen Israel as a humiliation but they would have lived with that.

But the colonisers weren't happy: they wanted more and more, and facing little opposition (and much support) got more and more."

They did keep to their assigned borders until after three, or was it four, wars of Arab aggression. 1948. 1967. 1973. I think there was one in 1957 too but I'm not too clear on that, or what the reason was or who was the aggressor, but regardless, after all these assaults, isn't it at least just a little understandable that Israel would wish to expand it's borders.

That is quite common in world history. No one wants to let their natural borders become a no man's land. After so long, it becomes of strategic importance to establish a buffer zone.

After so many assaults, it is not unfair in the least for the Israelis to hold on to the Golan, all the whining from the Syrian Ambassador to the contrary.

The Pagan Temple said...

Gambone, you can't go by the sixties, that's like trying to compare all Southerners to pre-Civil War plantation slave owners. Yes, I know there are a lot of intolerant bigots among the fundies, still yet, just as you claim now to know there are some not like that.

Now that I appreciate that you can have nuanced views without spelling it out, maybe you can give me the same benefit of the doubt.

Again, to me, when I say leftist, I am generally referring to the liberal, dominant branch of the Democratic Party. They and the Republicans are the only game in town.

You keep ignoring my points about Sarah Palin, so I'll just drop that, but just so you know, I fully intend to vote for her if she does run for President. That's my dumb ass decision and by God I intend to stick with it until I hear a better reason than I've heard so far.

I look at the total package, not just a few aspects of a person. You might want to do the same.

Federalists, such as myself, are more like you and what you claim to believe in (when it comes to things like democracy and local control as opposed to oppressive big government) than the Democrats are.

The Pagan Temple said...

By the way, MZ, have you heard the horrible news. It seems that sometime during the Gaza offensive, poor little Assud the Jew-eating rabbit was martyred. Now the poor little traumatized Palestinian children who loved him so much are going to need another beloved animal icon to encourage them to hate the Zionist scum. Don'cha just love how "tolerant" these "people" are?

Mad Zionist said...

Pagan, the mindless chumps who believe all the Palestinian rhetoric probably really think the Jews killed the bunny, too.

Renegade Eye said...

Gert: Why the apartheid analogy is incomplete without recognizing, nothing will fundamentally change without socialism.

What some don't know about South Africa, is guess what? The white minority still control most of the wealth of the economy. Open apartheid had to go. It is not an efficient form of capitalism.

The ANC sold out, with the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission. They chose not to carry the revolution until the end. I believe it had to do with Stalinist influences.

The boycott didn't end apartheid. It was the Cubans in Angola, according to Mandela, that made the difference.

Only socialism will guarantee self determination. To me the most important place to focus on is Egypt and Iran. If socialism occured there, the rest would fall as dominoes.

Difference between Jew and Zionist? One is an ethnic group, the other a political movement.

I changed my position on Zionism from the time I started my blog. I used to think it was a simple question of having a secular state.

Trotsky discovered during WWII, the most politically talked to working class, the German working class, allowed Hitler into power. He acknowledged a Jewish state was needed. He thought it shouldn't be run by what he called the utopian movement called Zionism. Trotsky offered land to Jews in Russia.

Larry: Another approach of showing ideological sectarianism in conservative thought, is pardon the word, minarchism. The idea of small government, as a tool to destroy all social welfare benefits. The idea of a safety net is an unnecessary expense.

MZ: Anti-Zionism is at times antisemitic, but not always. I'm frustrated with the left, not with anti-Jewishness. They talk as if Israel is a monolith.

They never think about uniting Israelis and Palestinians. Who am I talking to?

Pagan: Funny the ceasefire started with the inaugeration. Not getting Obama mad is priority over destroying Hamas. Smarten up. They need Hamas.

The Pagan Temple said...

Ren, I knew it would be over by the time Obama took office, that didn't surprise me when they called off the offensive when they did. I predicted it. I still say they should have destroyed Hamas. They might need them as a way to keep Gaza from descending into chaos, but who needs the end result? I can't fathom that. Do you really think they're that cynical?

They started the assault when they did during the presidential transition period. I recognized that, and realized it would be over by the time Obama took office. That pretty much proves at least the idea of a Zionist controlled American government is nonsense.

As far as your statements regarding "minarchism", I think there are probably a majority of conservatives who would in reality like to see social safety nets done away with, by phasing them out gradually, but they have come to recognize the reality that that is a losing proposition for them. No one wants to really change social security or Medicaid/Medicair. They give lip-service to reforming it, but they never will in any long-term meaningful way, because any perceived disruption would result in an electoral rout.

I don't really like the terms conservative and liberal, they've been misused. If I had the power and backing I would like to start a new Federalist Party. Federalism isn't the whole country dissolving into a group of independent states like Europe prior to the EU. That would be more like the Articles of Confederation.

True Federalism involves local and state control (state in the sense of states like Kentucky and Minnesota running their own affairs) in matters that isn't explicitly given to the Federal government, which would mainly involve foreign affairs and international trade and relations.

It does not mean that welfare or Social Security would end, or there could not be environmental regulations at the Federal level. It just means what it means, cities and communities run their own community affairs, and state governments run theirs. States were never meant to be just geographical regional designations controlled entirely by puppets of the federal government.

The more power states and communities have over their own affairs, the more power the people have. People have little power over the byzantine machinations of an entrenched bureaucratic national government.

Mad Zionist said...

Difference between Jew and Zionist? One is an ethnic group, the other a political movement.

Wrong on both counts, Ren. Jews are not an "ethnic group" or a "race", and Zionism is not simply a "political movement". This topic clearly is not your area of expertise, my friend.

Baconeater said...

Good time to bring this up.
Anti-semite, who us?

I can't wait until Gert does a series of posts on all the other world conflicts in the world. He certainly does a lot of disproportional blogging on his site.

Gert said...

Ren:

Your point was read and noted.

Inequality in SA remains very high and it was predictable that the promised land reforms didn't materialise.

I don't see however how a bloodbath on both sides, possibly with the complete demise of the White SA population, could have been avoided without Mandela's own style of liberation struggle.

And it's true that the demise of Zionism and peaceful transition into a free-for-all one-vote democracy will not solve the problem of Palestinian dispossession completely. On the contrary, the Herrenvolk will continue to hold on to their 'golden cities on the hills' (the best land, resources etc etc).

Bacon Eating White Boy:

My blog will probably continue to expose the crimes of Zionism well into the foreseeable future. There is too much to expose and too little time to do it in.

You, on the other hand, like to good old reactionary that you are, should stick to the microsubjects you've become such an expert on: Aiiii-theeeism, "exodus", your particular brand of evolutionary biology, Baby-Jay and wanking techniques.

Don't occasionally forget to include the odd poll 'proving' just what a high IQ the Chosen People have, because the little stormtroopers that so love your brownnosing to Uncle Sam like to know that they're supporting 'the right kind of people', you know? And please, also more of that science abuse you so love, the kind that proves via rather Naziesque eugenics that "Saudis are dumb because of inbreeding"...

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds: you claim to understand that the Occupation is wrong, yet won't lift a finger to actually protest it. Disproportionate media response? You'd love nothing better for the media to look the other way (like the US media) so that your Zionist brethren can continue the wholesale slaughter and expropriation of Palestine. Newsflash: ain't gonna happen...

You're a fascistoid pig, really... Oink, oink... The sort that proves that lazy liberalism also leads to gas chambers.

Baconeater said...

Wow Gert. Thanks for telling me what I'm all about. You haven't a clue.

I notice that comments on your blog have gone south since you showed your viewers that you finally lost your sense of fairness and decency. And you have lost all but your lunatic fringe faithful.

Israel is evil and the Palestinians are saints doesn't cut it in the real world.

Good luck and I won't hold my breath waiting for a series of posts from you on Pakistan, the Congo, or the Kurds. LOL.

You've lost it Gert. I'm surprised News From the West or David Duke hasn't taken any of your material yet.

Mad Zionist said...

Bacon, whether one is atheist, deist, or theist, if one is a Jew he is believed by the Gert's of the world to be part of a divisive enterprise that's destabilizing world harmony. This is a fact.

If you are a religious Jew than you believe in a primitive way of life that is elitist, separatist, and are considered an impediment to the advancement of world harmony.

If you are a secular Jew observing some Jewish traditions, you are enlightened enough to know better but stubbornly remain a divisive elitist and therefore remain an impediment to the advancement of world harmony.

If you are an atheist Jew, you are enlightened enough to know better but still remain associated with the elitist, destabilizing Jewish identity and are considered an impediment to the advancement of world harmony.

In short, as long as the label "Jew" remains associated with you you are on the outside, you are not really part of the solution, you are part of the problem and the world would be a much better place without you.

They may hate other religions and other religious affiliations, but because Jews uniquely represent more than religious faith or ritual, but also a common tribal identification, a connection to a common Jewish history, an affiliation with a nation both ancient and modern, and an ancestry of brotherhood to Jews around the world, we are uniquely branded with a designation that can't be broken with a simple declaration of atheism, agnosticism, or religious unaffiliation.

In short, you and I may have substantially different views about God and way of life, but because we are both members of a unique club that's very hard to join, powerful in influence, rather mysterious to outsiders, and unlike all other religions in the depth and variety of identity, we are indelibly intertwined.

To summarize: We both taste the ovens if the Nakba crowd gets their way, my friend.

Gert said...

Bacon Eating Brownnoser:

"Israel is evil and the Palestinians are saints doesn't cut it in the real world."

The "real world" you're referring to is the world that has aided and abetted Zionism since its inception. Unfortunately for your position, the "real world" is waking up. There's only so much lies one can peddle without some people questioning what's going on.

"Wow Gert. Thanks for telling me what I'm all about. You haven't a clue."

I know EXACTLY what folk like you are all about. For years I stood by you fighting anti-Semitism, all the while being willfully blind to the fact that not only does mediocrity ooze from every one of your pores but also and far more importantly, you are a self-avowed and publicly announced Arabophobe and virulent Islamophobe. You're also a spineless liar and a talentless hack.

"I notice that comments on your blog have gone south since you showed your viewers that you finally lost your sense of fairness and decency. And you have lost all but your lunatic fringe faithful."

Comments? You should see the amount of hate-mail I'm now getting from your brigade. Don't worry, samples to be produced shortly.

"fairness and decency" in your one-dimensional world means, sticking to the "middle ground", hiding behind Uncle Sam, and putting a quasi-humanistic veneer on your poorly constructed rants. As a blogger, there are few I despise more than I do you. Mad Zionist may suffer from a misspent youth but at least he's honest when he tries.

"Good luck and I won't hold my breath waiting for a series of posts from you on Pakistan, the Congo, or the Kurds. LOL."

Again, demanding 'fairness' by a complete hypocrite like you is simply more hypocrisy.

Go on now, go complain to the Anti Definition League. I'm quaking in my boots...

Baconeater said...

Gert, you are a twisted demented individual.
As for me lying. Pulease, show my one lie. Just one.
And no need to complain to anyone. You aren't important.

Now don't you have a poor terrorist who needs you to be his human shield? You have a purpose.

Gert said...

Bacon Eating Brownnoser:

Once again you show your infinite mediocrity and manage to not to refute one single thing I say about you.

There are those, who like me, for twenty years or more believed in the Hasbara lies that you and your acolytes continue to spread. And there are those, who like me, simply have had enough. Israel doesn't want a two state solution (and neither do you: why share land with people you consider genetically inferior? (please don't make me quote)), it wants not just the best bits of land and resources, it wants all of it.

You just don't get it, do you? Israel, thanks in part to you, is sleepwalking into de facto (if not de jure) Apartheid, which will mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. That process, with the side-effect of more Palestinians being killed and/or uprooted, may carry on another 10 - 30 years but without opposition that is exactly what will happen.

In Europe, too few came to the rescue of the Jews and too many Jews refused to see what was written on the wall. Now were seeing the same thing is being perpetrated against an also completely innocent people. They too didn't resist enough at the time and now are still in short supply of solid, powerful supporters.

They're not all innocent, you say? Bacon: the aggressors were the Zionists in 1948, in 1967 and to date, no amount of handwringing or apologetics will change that.

I don't expect an uneducated, DIY pseudo-intellectual like you to understand that: you're Jewish and that's the only perspective you have on this matter.

Keep hiding in the 'silent moral majority' and keep feeling smug about that...

Baconeater said...

Gert, you are an imbecile. I do want a two state solution, or even a three state solution which I think makes more sense. Make Gaza a state by itself.
As for racially inferiority. I have stated that it can be part of the cause of why the Arab world is behind when it comes to education production. But I think it is more of to do with nurture than anything else. Islam and especially Arab Islam breeds hatred. Oh yeah, you consider MEMRI propaganda.

And Gert, you are a step away from saying "ITZ COMING"

Get a grasp of yourself. You are weakening big time.

Renegade Eye said...

I have a new post up, with a summation of events in Gaza. Continue the discussion there, but please read the post.

Bacon Eater: Thank you for visiting.

Your article about Zionism and Judaism, was incorrect that it implied Israel is the only country with a national question in the Middle East. Iraq, Iran and the Kurdish is on the table.

I think Gert has adopted a more militant tone, since the Gaza invasion. The essense of his message, is that there is danger of unimaginable violence, and the actual end of the Jewish state.

I'm a softy because I'm used to liking Gert, MZ and you, without agreeing. I feel like Rodney King.

I always thought your politics and Gert's were similar.

Gert: If South Africa would have finished its revolution, Mugabe would be history. Revolution doesn't respect borders.

Your scenario denies the right to a Jewish homeland. Self determination is for all.

Could you show me Bacon Eaters Jewish genetically superior post?

MZ: I believe in the right to a Jewish state, but Jews as a nation is dubious. The founder of Zionism was a secular person. Most nations are made of dubious nationalism: see Congo.

Pagan: You are describing classical conservatism with your federalist idea.

Gert said...

Bacon:

My response to Greg's enquiry has been forwarded to you (minutes ago). You can read for yourself what I think of you. I was respectful. No more though. You don't deserve it.

Good luck with parroting Hasbara until Israel finally falls (through its own mistakes, hubris and collaborators like you).

Larry Gambone said...

"Again, to me, when I say leftist, I am generally referring to the liberal, dominant branch of the Democratic Party."

My error in this case, Pagan. Coming from a Canadian perspective, I don't consider these people as left. Most of them would not be out of place in the Canadian Conservative Party. Most of them are statist and authoritarian. I don't like them anymore than you do. When I think of "left" I think of social democrats, democratic socialists, Greens etc...

Baconeater said...

Renegade Eye, I don't know how I implied it was the only conflict when the point of the post was that there are many around the world. I'm well aware of the Turk-Kurd, Kurd-Iraq conflict. But the Kurds plight doesn't get a mention much, especially on blogs like DYWP.

As for racial superiority. I do believe that in the middle east, the leaders make it so the impoverished breed with the impoverished, and royalty with royalty, which will cause lesser intelligence collectively within the masses.

Yes, I do believe that if smart people have kids, their kid is more likely to be smarter than the child of two not so bright people.

Gert would like to believe that it is a fluke that Kenyans do well in long distance races in the Olympics because we are all created equal.

As for Jewish superiority, again that is Gert just making idiotic inferences. If anything, I believe the West is morally and ethically superior to the Arab Muslims states.

I acknowledge too, that Arab Americans do just as well on tests as anyone else including Jews.

But then again, we usually get the cream of the crop when it comes to Arabs who come to Western schools.

Larry Gambone said...

"the leaders make it so the impoverished breed with the impoverished, and royalty with royalty"

Sounds like everywhere else in the world, Bacon! You really think the greed heads and power junkies who run the US breed with the trailer park types?

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