Monday, August 04, 2008

Hamas And Fatah Are A Bigger Threat To The Palestinians Than Israel

(Taken from The Daily Star

It is a damning indication of just how bad things have become in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip when Fatah militants there must look to Israel for protection from their Palestinian rivals. The Jewish state announced on Monday that it would help a group of 150 Fatah fighters who had fled weekend clashes in Gaza relocate to the West Bank, after determining that they would face "imminent danger" if they were to return home. The scenes of Israel coming to the rescue of Palestinians after a bout of Arab fratricide were reminiscent of the events of Black September, during which scores of Palestinians sought asylum in Israel to escape King Hussein's crackdown on the Palestine Liberation Organization. The only difference this time around is that instead of seeking refuge from a heavy-handed Arab crackdown, Palestinians are fleeing from the murderous hands of their own Palestinian brothers.

Achievement of the Palestinian cause requires that all factions maintain a semblance of orderliness and keep their eyes on the price of independent statehood. In this both Fatah and Hamas have been miserable failures. Both have put partisan interests ahead of national ones and therefore have failed to maintain anything like a united Palestinian front. Even the mediation attempts of Egypt, Yemen and Saudi Arabia have not been enough to curb the political infighting and internecine bloodshed that have served to further threaten the Palestinians' very right to existence.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been deteriorating since the international community callously decided to punish an entire people for having exercised their democratic rights in the legislative elections of January 2006. But the Hamas movement is now exacerbating the situation by undermining the rule of law in the territory. After accusing its Fatah rivals of carrying out a deadly bombing late last week that killed five Hamas leaders and a little girl, the Islamist party launched what can be only be described as a witch-hunt, rounding up some 200 Fatah activists. Fatah provided an equally bad example of governance in the West Bank when it retaliated against the move by rounding up scores of people it branded "Hamas activists," including many judges, students and activists who have no known affiliation with the Islamist party. On both sides of divided Palestine, civilians must now add Fatah and Hamas to the long list of threats to their security and wellbeing.

The events of the last week are just the most recent example of how the situation in the Occupied Territories has gone from bad to worse under the watchful eyes of elected Palestinian "representatives." Hundreds of people were killed last year when the two groups allowed their rivalry to degenerate into street violence. Hundreds more were prevented from going about their normal activities such as attending school, going to work or expressing political views.

Over the past few days the two Palestinian factions seem to be close to repeated the same disastrous mistakes. We have seen Palestinians denigrating the legitimacy of other Palestinians, Palestinians making war on other Palestinians, and Palestinians arresting other Palestinians, while the Jewish state has come to the rescue of those Palestinians who fear for their lives. Israel has never looked so good.

The Daily Star

Marxist From Lebanon

72 comments:

Renegade Eye said...

I disagree with the term "Jewish State." What is a small irony, is that I'm sure Mad Zionist will disagree.

The 2006 war in Lebanon, was supposed to end in civil war as well. It didn't and Olmert is out.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren, Israel needs to be a true Jewish State, but it fails miserably and now teeters on the brink of liberal induced suicide (a la Ochs).

The Hezbalon war was a catastrophe for Israel, and Olmert should be hanging from a noose on the front steps of the Knesset for his cowardice, treason and crimes against the Jewish people.

Regarding Hamas vs Fatah, well, arabs will be arabs. Now that the Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Gaza the moslems must resort to killing one another...as they always have.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Well Renegade,

Even George Bush called Israel a Jewish State, ie a racist State... all the media over here refer to it as well as that.

As for the Muslims ethnically cleansing Gaza, that is a total lie... if you want ethnic cleansing, just answer why Palestine shrank from Palestine Proper to just Gazza and West Bank
(my family were Christians from Ramle) ....

I love this downsize to Palestinians as Arabs as a whole... Arabs is the same as downsizing Bulgaria and England to "Europeans will be Europeans" , colonizers....

We are hoping Israel gets a new stupid PM, like Olmert....

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I like the post purely for the title itself, like strutting cocks Hamas and Fatah peck each other to death over a tiny bit of land that is littered with the dead and dying from their bloody conflict.

Humanity sometimes crushes me with it's foolishness and pointlessness as it beats itself to death.

dave said...

Wow this is backward stuff.
Israel occupies Palestine. How can it be less of a problem that the Palestine bourgeois factions? Even if you don't think that Israel is imperialist its a settler colonial state on Palestinian land.
Fatah and Hamas are competing for the franchise to run a separate Palestine state. They are sellouts and cannot solve the Palestinian national question, only a single workers state can do that. They act as the Israels jailers of Palestinians.
But in any fight between Hamas or Fatah and Israel there is only one side to be on and that is against Israel, with no political support for Hamas or Fatah, because they will both do deals with Israel to divide Palestine and take power as a national bourgeoisie.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

I find it rather amusing how Israel and the US dubbed Fatah as terrorists in the past, whereas now they are the warriors for democracy. Who knows, perhaps Hamas might become the next "symbols for democracy" in the future....

Ducky's here said...

Israeli holds all the cards and has managed to contribute to making Gaza a living hell while looking like the good guys.
They have learned how to play this PR game while the Arabs have not.
Meanwhile Israeli will control most of the arable land and nearly all the potable water. Having consumed most of the regions resources they will throw the Palestinians some scraps and then ask us to clap while they crow about their magnanimity.
Then we'll talk about "democracy" and everyone's mouths water like Pavlov's dogs but all the players there are just involved in one big game of fuck-fuck.
If Bennie Nuttyyahoo gets back in the game in Israel in a big way then look for things to get worse. My guess is he asks that the welfare checks be enlarged and we help try to marginalize Iran further so that there is nothing to put the brakes on Israel.

Mad Zionist said...

I find it rather amusing how Israel and the US dubbed Fatah as terrorists in the past, whereas now they are the warriors for democracy. Who knows, perhaps Hamas might become the next "symbols for democracy" in the future...

Couldn't have said it better myself, MFL. It's a cowardly con game played by corrupt men at the expense of Jewish civilians. Fatah was Arafat's pet terrorist project, but the chumps from the west and self-loathers within Israel have re-invented them to be the flag bearers of peace. It's a tragic comedy, and all involved will suffer.

Want peace? Deport the arabs to arab countries where they can live as arabs. Arabs will always be 2nd class citizens in a country where the national anthem is the Hope of the Jewish People, the national independence day celebrates the defeat of the arabs, the immigration laws give right of return exclusively to Jews, the national flag is the Shield of David, the national language is Hebrew, and the national holidays are Jewish holidays.

Not a single arab, not one anywhere in the entire territory of Israel's control, is happy with such circumstances. Every single arab wants it to be an arab state, not a Jewish state. Every arab (save for the tiny Christian and Druze minority) wants islam to be the national religion, not Judaism, and wants arabic to be the national language. It would be insane to suggest otherwise. I understand this, I get it, and that's why they must go. It would be hateful and contemptuous towards the arabs to suggest they can be bought by the west with welfare checks to give up their national dreams.

Reality makes the arab an untenable 5th column that must be removed if Israel ever hopes for peace as a Jewish State. There is no other way.

Ducky's here said...

zionist, we are talking about Gaza and the West Bank, not Israel.

Eitan said...

Ducky: the West Bank is (still) an integral part of Israel and until an idiot P.M. like Olmert decides to give it as a present to terrorism it will remain ours.

Ren: Your basic claim in this piece seems to be that the infighting between Pali factions ala Hamas and el-Fatah is giving the "Palestinians" a bad reputation/hard life/etc...

It's not the infighting, Ren. It's who's doing the fighting. Instead of peaceful resilience ala Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. the Palestinians have always used violence as a means to an end whereas in reality its an end to a means.

Mad Zionist said...

zionist, we are talking about Gaza and the West Bank, not Israel.

Therein lies the problem. These territories needed to be annexed by Israel in 1967, and until they are there will be no peace.

Ducky's here said...

The "problem" is that they are not part of Israel and never will be. Meanwhile, the "vaunted" Israeli military gets stuffed in Lebanon, (long ago having destroyed the regions only democracy, Israel is a theocracy) trying to fight Bush's proxy war with Iran against a bunch of irregulars armed with bottle rockets and we continue to send the welfare checks for the useless IDF and continue to pay double as we try to marginalize Iran for no good reason.

Eitan said...

Ducky: those comments are anti-Semitic in nature and if I wasn't aware of your status as a comitted Communist Party member I'd accuse you of being an anti-Semite(one does not preclude the other of course).

I've seen your comments enough times to know that you're comitted to the plebs' struggle against the working middle class whether in America or Israel and that you're really harmless. Those who aren't used to you will take you for a neo-Nazi however.

Renegade Eye said...

Dave: MFL is aware, this is an analysis, from a bourgeoise newspaper. It was posted for its description of the situation, and the discussion it'll bring.

Israel is a satellite of the US, playing the role Colombia plaays in Latin America.

I can't endorse a single state, if it's led by Hamas or Fatah, with a Jewish minority.

Eitan: Ducky is not a Communist Party member or anti-Semitic.

Dave is correct that Fatah and Hamas are fighting to be the national bourgeoisie of their countries.

MFL: At one time Israel subsidized Hamas, as an alternative to at that time leftist Fatah.

Ducky: Expect Bennie N to be next? He is walking into a world situation, that is different than he ever faced.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill: This week I'm at the Fringe Festival. My new peeve now is artists talk about oppression in universal terms, to keep from taking sides.

MZ: Israel as a Jewish state, needs a two state solution to survive as a Jewish state, just by population alone. The Zionist government will talk to Hamas unconditionally. They made deals before with Hamas.

Mad Zionist said...

Eitan, you are right about Ducky. He shares the same opinion of the Jews as Pat Buchanan and Michael Gallagher. Basically, like most who hate the Jews, he cloaks his bigotry by using catch-phrases "Zionist" or "Israeli" rather than "Jew", while throwing about libelous claims that advance his seething hatred of Jewish laws and values. This is why he was long ago banned from my site, while others on the left, like Ren and Gert, are welcomed.

In his warped, twisted world, the Jews are the persecutors while the moslems are the persecuted. "Greedy Jews" demand lavish payola, while the poor arabs are left with nothing but dirt. "The sadistic Jews" are turning Gaza into a hell hole, while using the "Jew media" to garner international favortism. The "coniving Jews" are controlling American foreign policy to fit their own financial/racist agenda. The "glutonous Jews" hog all the natural resources, while cruely torturing the hungry moslem masses.

This is why I have no interest in world opinion, as the majority largely sides with this thinly veiled anti-Jew hostility. Ducky and his ilk are every bit as much the enemy of the Jews as Nasralla, Kuntar and Abbas.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

More like the Zionists are the ultimate enemies of the Jews,just like Milosevic to the Serbs...

Renegade... you are right... The stupid Zionists protected the Muslim Brotherhoon in Palestine and turned the eye elsewhere so they can balance against Fatah and the PLO... Fatah leaders accused the Muslim Brotherhood (soon to evolve to Hamas) as Zionist agents) in 1977

roman said...

Fatah and Hamas prove once again that their respective goals are to gain complete control over the Palestinian people. The trouble is that they are willing to achieve that goal over the dead bodies of the very people they seek to control. Partisanship trumps nationalism. Never a good formula for peace.

Ducky's here said...

Sorry Renegade, the thought of NuttyYahoo being the next prime minister is too dreary to contemplate.

Now George W. had said that as part of his legacy he was going to get the two state solution done before he left office --- doesn't look like that's going to happen.

The world may be much different but in the Middle East nothing changes. I think both sides are too blinded by hatred to make much progress and I don't know that there are resources there to support anything like an American middle class life style in Israel without Israel claiming most of the critical resources.

Mad Zionist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mad Zionist said...

Zionists are the ultimate enemies of the Jews.

Wow. Are you even remotely aware of how stupid that statement makes you sound? Where exactly do you get your information about Judaism? How about just saying, "Judaism is the ultimate enemy of the Jews", or "Koshrus is the ultimate enemy of the Jews," or "Yom Kippur is the ultimate enemy of the Jews".

Makes about as much sense.

Ducky's here said...

How about Meir Kahane's blind hatred is the ultimate enemy of the Jews?"

Mad Zionist said...

How about Meir Kahane's blind hatred is the ultimate enemy of the Jews?

That's even better. Hating the enemies of the Jewish people makes him one ultimate enemy of the Jews. But people like yourself, liberal elites who despise "Zionists" and support the enemies of Israel, are the true friends of the Jews.

Rather comical.

Liberal White Boy said...

Sometimes it just seems crazy spending all this time talking about this fraudulent shitty little apartheid state. A few days ago a band of these side curled West Bank savages through a fifteen year Palestinian boy off a roof top at a wedding just for fun. Into the sea with these murderous fraudulent mf's.

Mad Zionist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mad Zionist said...

Gotta love those liberals. Unlike Kahane and the "wicked Zionists", who are the "ultimate enemies" of the Jewish people, the liberals are obviously real, true friends of the Jewish people.

Still trying to make that case, fellas, or have you had about enough? World opinion can kiss my ass.

Eitan said...

lwb: Why is it so easy to provoke you? Why do you stoop so low in order to make a point? You're a decent guy but you need to work on your control.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Is it me or Mad Zionist is debating with himself, or he forgot how the Zionists imported Jews from Europe during the British mandate whereas they were only 9% living in harmony with the Christians or Muslims.... so yes Zionism is the ultimate enemy of the Jews because it transformed them from a religious sect and belief to a race, like Milosevic's Serbs... no difference whatsoever. It is the same as saying that every Orthodox is a Serb... every Zionist is a Jew... well I got news for you... Zionism is an isolationist ultra-nationalist doctrine, and hey I am sorry for the holocaust, but it doesn't justify what they did in stealing a whole land... so yes... please, make me laugh ... people are people buddy... it is racial ideology as yours that seperates them ... and mind you... latest statistics in the US according to Finkelstein... less than 50% of the Jews do not care about Israel... so henceforth, Zionists among the Jews are less popular, except with the Christian elitests, and a bit from the Arab World, like Moubarak and the king of Jordan...

And if Samir Kuntar bothers you that much, why not see what your buddies did in Qana I or Qana II, or throughout the 1990s .... but as you said " World Opinion Can Kiss Your Face" or the day-to-day slaughter of the Palestinians..., so voila for democracy... and you praise the liberals ... I am laughing ... man you are helping my cause on proving how bad Zionist is, and could be worse if someone like you takes control :)

Renegade... this guy beats all of them I had to debate ... he/she always like that?

Ummm... LWB ... there are worse examples sadly the media doesn't cover outside everything...

No War But Class War ...
MFL

Mad Zionist said...

Arab, your people are the most vile terrorist persecutors of the Jews on earth. I offer you no guilt, no apology, and no sympathy. If anything, I am only sorry that the meek, self-loathing leftists who have governed Israel from the beginning didn't run your people out of every inch of our land. But rest assured, they will be in time.

Let's get something straight, arab: The land of Israel belongs to the Jews as decreed by God in the Torah, and nobody else. Your people are interlopers, illegal aliens, and have no rightful claim whatsoever. They are not welcome, they are not wanted, and they must be expelled or there will be perpetual war.

Your people, arab, persecuted the Jews from the very beginning, not just since 1967. You land grabbing arabs rioted and slaughtered Jews, just for being Jewish, in 1929 and again massacred Jews by the hundreds in 1936 and 1938.

Arab, your mufti sided with Hitler in WWII, care to defend that position? Arab, your countrymen expelled over 800,000 Jews from Arab lands in 1948, and they came to ISrael as a result. Time to return the favor, wouldn't you say?

Arab, your lowly moslem friends desecrated our holy Temple Mount with a repulsive shrine that needs to be converted to an ash tray.

Arab, the bottom line is your people don't belong on our land, and in time there will be a leader with the courage to rout your people out of the land at gunpoint and send them where they belong: to any of the 22 moslem countries that arabs can have their own culture and their own dillusional supremacy in peace.

This is about Jewish survival, arab, and your people will lose in the end. We will ultimately prevail because it is life and death for us, while it is just another random, lowly jihad for your pals.

Arab from Lebanon, I hope I have made myself perfectly clear. There will be revolution, and it will be the Zionists, not the self-loathing, Hellenized leftists who will be calling the shots...it's only a matter of time. And when that time comes, arab, the jig is up.

Mad Zionist said...

Myth of Palestinian Nationalism

Liberal White Boy said...

Speaking of myths...


Shattering a 'national mythology'

By Ofri Ilani

Of all the national heroes who have arisen from among the Jewish people over the generations, fate has not been kind to Dahia al-Kahina, a leader of the Berbers in the Aures Mountains. Although she was a proud Jewess, few Israelis have ever heard the name of this warrior-queen who, in the seventh century C.E., united a number of Berber tribes and pushed back the Muslim army that invaded North Africa. It is possible that the reason for this is that al-Kahina was the daughter of a Berber tribe that had converted to Judaism, apparently several generations before she was born, sometime around the 6th century C.E.

According to the Tel Aviv University historian, Prof. Shlomo Sand, author of "Matai ve'ech humtza ha'am hayehudi?" ("When and How the Jewish People Was Invented?"; Resling, in Hebrew), the queen's tribe and other local tribes that converted to Judaism are the main sources from which Spanish Jewry sprang. This claim that the Jews of North Africa originated in indigenous tribes that became Jewish - and not in communities exiled from Jerusalem - is just one element of the far- reaching argument set forth in Sand's new book.

In this work, the author attempts to prove that the Jews now living in Israel and other places in the world are not at all descendants of the ancient people who inhabited the Kingdom of Judea during the First and Second Temple period. Their origins, according to him, are in varied peoples that converted to Judaism during the course of history, in different corners of the Mediterranean Basin and the adjacent regions. Not only are the North African Jews for the most part descendants of pagans who converted to Judaism, but so are the Jews of Yemen (remnants of the Himyar Kingdom in the Arab Peninsula, who converted to Judaism in the fourth century) and the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe (refugees from the Kingdom of the Khazars, who converted in the eighth century).

Into the sea with these fraudsters.

Renegade Eye said...

Graeme in the blog "Left of East Dakota," brilliantly put together a summary of the Middle East; the US pretends to care about democracy, in exchange Arab leaders pretend to care about Palestinians.

Roman: Exactly right. That is what the post was saying.

Ducky: Benjamin Netanyahu has nothing to do with disappointment. Some think he'll reappear.

I never crossed paths with a Kahanist, until I started blogging.

In bizzaro world, your politics are like Pat Buchanon.

MZ: This blog takes revolution seriously. MFL and myself, both understand the type of program and theory that is needed to cause great changes. You have nothing to add on the subject of revolution. It's not something you just wish for, and it comes.

MFL's family has ducked bullets from all sides, Islamists, nationalists and Zionism. The main enemy of Islamism and Arab nationalism in the Middle East is not Zionism or US Imperialism, it's revolutionary socialism in the form of Trotskyism. Zionists have always been willing to make deals with Islamism. It even subsidized Hamas.

Not only do you not program to implement anything, in the US Reaganism is in its last throes. Even the cultural war is lost.

If the United Nations expelled every country that had dubious borders or rights to be a country, half would be expelled. Why is the Congo a country? El Salvador? Virtually all of South America was greater Colombia. The Israeli and US government acknowledge the existence of Palestinians. You are not going to parrot Beakerkin's assertion Nasser invented Palestinians.

Zionism is unable to keep its promise. Jews in Israel, are more dependent on Gentiles than Jews anywhere in the world. In addition the war spending is hurting retirement pensions and social services.

Bottom line is MFL is much more feared by Arab nationalists and Islamists than they are of Kahane's corpse.

Eitan: You are wrong about Ducky's politics. Neither of us are in position to talk about control issues.

LWB: What do you think of the post?

Renegade Eye said...

I think Israel is increasingly secular for a materialist reason. In the period particularly from the transition to capitalism from feudalism, there were jobs that were unique to Jews. As a result of discrimination and talent, Jews had jobs involving finance as collecting taxes and debt. That provided the ammunition for anti-Semitism. With modern capitalism and the modern nation state, there are no job categories that are unique to Jews.

That is why there is less Jewish identity as a nation or religion. Modern capitalism destroyed Jewish identity.

Renegade Eye said...

LWB: I dismiss ancient claims in one sentence. They don't matter.

Very interesting what you posted, and it should cause interesting discussion.

I'm not sure what the last sentence means?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Ren: as is currently the trend over here of late, 33 comments left and not much being said of value.

Still, picked up on your comment regarding oppression in general terms and couldn't agree more, taking sides is essential part of the narrative, gives perspective and a sense of urgency to the work.

The show I'll be doing baout torture certainyl takes a side but it is a rare thing.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Mad Zionist lost it :)

Just drop the term Zionist and stick to Mad...

If Palestine was a myth why the British found out that in 1918 only 7% were PALESTINIAN JEWS, while the rest were PALESTINIAN MUSLIMS AND PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS :), or they also were any Jewish :P

Furthermore, it wasn't the Arabs who persecuted the Jews, it was the Europeans , hence Zionism came from there and broke the harmony here :) , now of course, whatever I am saying would be coming out of a mouth of a "savage" ... personally, your words showed who is the savage :)

Finally, I love the idea I come from a mythological place :), oh wait, all historical documents say there is a Palestine , so I wonder who is having fantasies, the British Mandate? US diplomats? Even the Zionist leaders themselves who have been nagging that at least 60,000 Jews need to be imported from Europe annually (Weismann's speech in Jafa in front an Arab Counsil of PALESTINIAN JEWS, PALESTINIAN Christians, and PALESTINIAN Muslims. You know does it bug you that the US honored an ARAB thinker called Jubran Khalil Jubran? or that the books of Edward Said are everywhere :)

Gotta love this attitude: "Arab...bla bla bla" , specially from a person who says that they have the right to kill anyone but remain untouched :)

Oh btw, did you know a lot of Hebrew words are originally ARABIC? so learn a bit about your language's history :P

I am really laughing over here :)

(MFL 6 - MZ 0)

MFL

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Renegade, you are right in your analysis regarding Islamists and Socialists...

Israel struck more deals with Hezbollah than anyone else :)

As for my blog... my article on Wilayat el Faqih got several people angry, and luckily, I keep my identity secret on purporse. Christian/Muslim reactionary party supporters have been trying to hunt me down for almost a year (now that I got their full attention) and so far I have ditched them.

On a side note, I met a lot of Jews from the US who actually visited Lebanon as anti-Zionist activists, they are wonderful, and their stories that shared with us are terrible, one of them shared with us their grandparents' experiences in Poland, it is one thing to read about it, but even more horrific to hear it ...

BTW, last year, we were extensively involved in a campaign regarding the holocaust when Ahmadinejad said that the Jewish Holocaust is a myth (kinda makes us feel that Mad Zionist is of the same crust like that looney president). Several activists were Communist veterans (non-Stalinists) that fought the Israeli army back in 1982 ... kinda brings a tear of pride to belong to such an ideology, unlike our neo-con or zionist short-sighted friends :)

MFL

Liberal White Boy said...

RE
Because the Zionist claim to Israel is based upon a historical fraud, that history is certainly relevant. Zionist claims are comparible to an Irish Catholic suggesting that he has a historical claim to Italy.

As for the article I find these kinds of articles annoying. Hamas and Hezbollah were born of resistance to murderous Israeli occupation. If we today were to steal seventy percent of the property of the Jews of Israel, strip them of their basic human rights, build a wall around them so access to food and other basics normally available from commerce is denied, the Jews would be killing each other just like the imprisoned people of Gaza. Their should be no great mystery about this.

Israel in its current racist configuration should be unacceptable to every decent human being. The real problem is not with the Palestinians it’s with the racists of Apartheid Israel.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren, your crew of LWB and MFL are so willfully ignorant it's pathetic. I'm guessing they'll be bringing out the Protocals of the Elders of Zion, or Mein Kompf next. I don't debate with fools, and they are two of the biggest morons I've run accross in quite some time.

As for Zionism, I think you are confusing liberalism and humanism with Zionism. Olmert and company are post-zionists who are just trying to hang onto their cushy trappings at the EXPENSE of TRUE ZIONISTS. Want to meet a true Zionist? Go to Tapuach and see how they live off the land, armed to the teeth against both the anti-Zionist Israeli government as well as the terrorist, criminal arabs.

Those who base their Zionism on Torah do not make deals with the enemy, only the self-loathers make such suicidal decisions, and unfortunately there are a lot of self-loathing Jews in the world right now.

If the islamists fear MFL more than they fear the Zionists, the true Zionists, the Kahane Zionists and settler Zionists, than that pleases me. They are underestimating just how dug in and intense the Torah Zionist movement really is, and that will serve our revolution well.

Your problem is that you just don't understand Zionism. You confuse it with something of Olmert, Peres, and Barak, when they are actually bitter enemies of Zionism, traitors of Zionism, who should be hanged for their crimes against the Jewish people.

If you want to know what real Zionism means watch the videos I've presented on my website of Kahane ripping the very same liberal traitors to the Jewish people you mistake for Zionists. Trust me, if you don't comprehend the power and determination of the Torah Zionism revolution than you will be in for a rude awakening when take power in Israel.

It's only a matter of time.

Mariamariacuchita said...

I agree with Graeme.

Sham politics and pretending to care.

Their own power, voice, reflection in the world mirror or their own mirror is all any of them care about.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Mad Zionist is nuts, the "true Zionists" he preaches about sound more racist than the Nazis :)

you couldnt even win a war 2 years ago.... wow, the whole world is scared... let's face it, you are racist and a racist who is an ultra-minority in his community (a 41 year-old nuts...) :)

Plus you didnt answer anything of my historical points which leads to the proof that you also dont have a clue what the hell you are talking about :)

And spare me the religious apocalypse Torah ... you are no different than al-Qa'eda, merging religion with politics... shame on you (hehehehehehe)

Now instead of going in pethatic circles , answer my historical points... fact is Palestine exists, your theory is false... fact Europe persecuted Jews more than anyone else... (others) (re-read my replies).... so not bad for this "Arab" teaching "a true Zionist" a course or two in history...

(MFL 7 - MZ 0) -----) Got the score?

MFL

PS: And I thought Zionism was the worst to come to this part of earth... guess there is worse

Renegade Eye said...

I'm going to be online late tonight.

Daniel: I'm glad you noticed the trend in the arts. Artists are way behind. They just discovered identity politics, like it's new. Maybe that is postmodernism.

MZ: You are the one who replied in a chauvinistic manner with the "Arab" harangue. You were argued against politically.

Trotsky pointed out even before the Russian Revolution, that terrorism is born out of political isolation and substituting yourself for mass political action.

That has much to do with your movement going into the direction of terrorism. The bottom line is that Jews don't follow Kahane.

Post Zionist?

Mad Zionist said...

MFL, as I said before, and will say again, you are a nearly illiterate fool (you write like a 7year old) and I don't debate fools. The little "keeping score" game your playing with yourself is just as juvenile. The "history" you and LWB site is simply garbage. I already supplied you with a legitimate link, filled with source and citation, but rather than read it you just beat the same, tired, arabist talking points to death. You are a waste of my time.

Ren, the only terrorism going on is arab terrorism. Kahane's way, which is the Torah way, would eliminate violence between the arab and the Jew in Israel because it would remove the arab enemy from Israel. There is no other way for peace, so if you really like seeing arabs and Jews die, well, keep letting the same Jewish sell-outs, arabist scumbags, and political opportunists maintain the same untenable situation.

I offer a real solution, while you are offering nothing but more of the same old violence.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren: Post-Zionism

MarxistFromLebanon said...

sorry if I am a multitasker who doesn't have time to reply... but admit it, that source is nothing compared to the British Mandate... so till now , all your ideas are insane and false :)

Plus you are reconfirming to me and others how racist you are again... you still didn't answer my question, what makes you different than Milosevic (probably the fact he is way smarter than you)... what a follower, a Tora superstitious person :)

MFL

PS: I wish I was 7 years old, because then this 7 years old taught a 41 year old a good lesson about history and proved how "Arabs" are not racist (even though I am a Marxist myself), rather "true Zionists" ...

(MFL 8 - MZ 0) ---) Got anything in the Torah that predicts how insane you are, o Hitler of the Middle East?

Liberal White Boy said...

Alright that does it, now I'm going to have to dig up some Khazar bones and do my own genetic testing just to prove what a fool MZ really is with all of his self worshipping delusional Kahaninst nonsense. Hint: The bones will be in a cemetery in former Khazarstan. The graves will be marked both with the Star of David and probably alot of phallic symbols. That's right before they adopted MZ's religion his real ancestors were penis worshippers. It's funny that in this field dominated by Zionists that nobody has thought to do that. I guess they can't handle the truth. Oh sorry people of Palestine for this little misunderstanding. We'll be on our way back to Poland and Russia now.

sonia said...

The scenes of Israel coming to the rescue of Palestinians after a bout of Arab fratricide were reminiscent of the events of Black September, during which scores of Palestinians sought asylum in Israel to escape King Hussein's crackdown on the Palestine Liberation Organization.

They are also reminiscent of Trotsky seeking refuge in the West to escape Stalin.

Nothing new here. Civil wars are always more brutal than "normal wars".

Renegade Eye said...

MZ: Post Zionism isn't a monolith.

You keep attacking MFL, as if he is an Arab nationalist. The post he put up on the blog, is beyond what an Arab nationalist would post. They wouldn't criticize Fatah and Hamas.

I do know people who refuse to comment on this blog, because Kahanists comment here. My blog evolved different than most.

LWB: The Kazars were converts to Judaism. DNA studies were done. Arguing the Bible only happens on blogs.

Neither Hamas or Fatah can provide for the masses of Palestine, what they need to survive, anymore than Zionism can help Jews. Issues as water etc. can't be solved by nationalists or Islamists. Making a deal with Israel, that only benefits themselves is their goal. Just the fact that they allowed this civil war situation to take place, is a bad mark on them. In power all they'd do is align Palestine with neoliberalism.

I wish more mainstream Zionists left comments here. MZ and Beakerkin don't speak for mainstream Jewish thought. I have to admit I don't know what Beakerkin thinks. He talks religious Zionism to some, and not others.

The right to self determination isn't an absolute right. A single state solution is unacceptable, to have a Jewish minority living under Hamas. Just as Tibetans if they had a state, shouldn't have one if they oppress minority Chinese. United working class is more important than self determination.

Sonia: Brutality is hard to measure.

Trotsky was deported from USSR in the middle of the night, to Turkey where Stalin knew White Russians were concentrated. He didn't flee USSR, he was pushed.

Many bourgeoise democratic states didn't want Trotsky, because they didn't want to offend Stalin.

Trotskyism proven by the Spanish Civil War, was the main enemy of Stalinism and Nazism. Stalin was always willing to make deals with bourgeoise democracies and fascists.

Maria: Thank you for your comment.

Mad Zionist said...

Ren: As far as I'm concerned, MFL is simply a garden varietal enemy propagandist, and a moron to boot. You label him as you see fit, but that's how I classify him. He will do or say anything, no matter how baseless, to fit his warped, bigoted, twisted hatred for Jews and Israel. He's proven too stupid and juvenile to engage with any seriousness, so I've dismissed him as irrelevent.

As far as your comment towards your other resident anti-Semite about wanting to know how "mainstream Jews" think, I'd like to know what you classify as a "mainstream Jew". Is it the kind of Jews who reject their Jewish identity and join forces with the enemies of the Jewish people against Israel?

If that's mainstream, well, I'm sure glad to be outside of the loop.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

You still didn't answer to any of the questions I rose, because you have nothing to say (a typical coward who hates to admit the truth --> Typical Ultra-Zionist). I have nothing against the Jews, rather against Zionists who promote ethnicity over equality, whereas your case, lunatic part of Zionists, got my pity because you live outside this world and promote bloodshed worse than al-Qa'eda...

and mind you this "Marxist" has convinced several people about the dangers of Zionism and been active on different forms... unlike you who just sits , grabs a superstitious book called the Torah and talks like an ancient prophet... any person who goes predicting the future based on a religious book is simply pethatic, and inferior to the progressive and active forces... whereas you demand bloodshed, I demand equality :)

So personally, I should thank you for entertaining the crowds over here... o Hitler of the Middle East ... so what about the British Mandate archives hmmmm?

By the way, you are mentally way off the loop... the mental one ... o greatest enemy of the Jews ... and a minor point to add, I have a lot of Jewish friends, and two of them are Zionists were we get involved in constructive debates ... who many non-Jewish (and also "Arab") friends you have? As a matter of fact, do you have any friends at all, other than the Torah?

MFL

PS: Keep classifying people because the rest of us (and probably even a lot of Zionists) dub you a nutcase :D

Mad Zionist said...

Like I said...a total moron. I particulary get a kick out of the "I have Jewish friends", and, "I have no problem with Jews, it's just the Zionism I can't stand", business.

Isn't that special.

You reject the Children of Israel's claim to the Land of Israel, but you still really "like" Jews., eh? You know how you like Jews? You like them when they've rejected their Jewishness, and only then.

After all, since Jews also believe they are "CHOSEN" they cannot properly assimilate into your populus masses, so they need to give that up if they are to be welcomed into your special world. They can't be different, elitest, and not fitting in with your society, can they?

Oh, and what if these beloved Jews of yours insist on only marrying Jewish? There again, not blending, not fitting in properly, exclusive, different, not part of the solution but part of the problem. The Jew must reject such dangerous and arrogant philosophy lest he set bad precedents of hierarchy and elitism to your great, special society.

Oh, hold on a minute...the Jew can't eat everything that the rest of your utopia eats? They can't eat milk with their meat? They don't eat shellfish?? Well, that again is going to create discontent among the proletariat, so we must insist that they reject such antiquated, separatist, and divisive behavior.

Hold on again, the Jew is NOT going to work on Saturday? What?!! When everyone else is doing their fair share of labor the Jew is sitting back and resting? This will cause an uprising of the masses and must be stopped if the grand society of MFL is to work properly.

Excuse me? You are insisting on chopping off the tip of your baby boy's penis? This is barbaric, and certainly not lending itself to harmony with the others you seem to be constantly differenciating yourself from. End that practice at once!

Need I go on? Clearly you despise Judaism, and unless someone categorically rejects all their claims and allegience to such an entity you have no use for them.

Which is why I have no use for you.

Ducky's here said...

"Trotskyism proven by the Spanish Civil War, was the main enemy of Stalinism and Nazism. Stalin was always willing to make deals with bourgeois democracies and fascists."

Nicely worded. That focuses the matter pretty precisely.

Ducky's here said...

"As far as your comment towards your other resident anti-Semite about wanting to know how "mainstream Jews" think, I'd like to know what you classify as a "mainstream Jew". Is it the kind of Jews who reject their Jewish identity and join forces with the enemies of the Jewish people against Israel?"

Ya know mad zionist, you can decide that for yourself. But what you CANNOT do is to expect your claim of exceptionalism is going to be recognized in a secular society.
You go on an incredibly bizarre rant (Muslims don't practice circumcision? I'm Roman Catholic and I'm circumcised. What's your point?)

You wish to eat kosher? Fine. What's the issue there?

If you don't work on Saturday why is that a critical problem? You seem to mistake the fact that the larger culture in America isn't adopting to Judaism? There isn't any reason it should. Neither should it interfere with your practice.

I'm afraid you are a very angry person and it can eat you alive. If you have a Netflix account pick up Sidney Lumet's "The Pawnbroker".

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Mad Zabri :)

"There again, not blending, not fitting in properly, exclusive, different, not part of the solution but part of the problem. The Jew must reject such dangerous and arrogant philosophy lest he set bad precedents of hierarchy and elitism to your great, special society."

You mean Jews are different than the rest of the world? They shouldn't marry or mingle with other Sects? Oh come on, that is like Hitler and the Aryan race :) ... man, you are equating yourself to the freaks like Hitler or Milosevic... what happened about people are equal everywhere? Oh I forgot, equality is a dangerous global plan against the Jews... (nutty little Zionist we have over here...) Please keep answering back, you are sure promoting people away from Zionism :P (why Thank you)

So what if a Jew did work on a saturday? Next you will tell me that the 10 commandments are God Given, like the Bible or other religious scriptures...

Next thing he will tell me that Churches and Mosques should not be constructed in Palestine Proper/Israel... o wait, they already demolished 90% of that :D

laters for now o Hitler of the Middle East .... need to grab some drinks and go out on a date (who knows, she might be a JEW as well, a LEBANESE or US JEW) , unlike you, I don't care :P

(Score: MFL 11 - MZ 0) ---> Pawned!

MFL

PS: Mad Zionist, are you sure you are 41? Do they have internet connection at the mental hospital you are in?

Mehmet Çagatay said...

Ren wrote:

Trotsky was deported from USSR in the middle of the night, to Turkey where Stalin knew White Russians were concentrated. He didn't flee USSR, he was pushed.

Here is a fine documentary on Trotsky’s exile years in Buyukada:

Trotsky Documentary

Mad Zionist said...

Ducky, when did I ever once claim that in America Jews can't live as Jews? Please show where I've made such an assertion.

The point I WAS making related to the arabist, marxist hack who just got done making these prescious comments:

I have nothing against the Jews, rather against Zionists

Since the the Torah commands that the Land of Israel is the eternal, exclusive home of the Children of Israel, I guess it's safe to say MFL hates all Jews who haven't renounced Judaism.

This "Marxist" has convinced several people about the dangers of Zionism

So, he has been preaching to the masses that the Children of Israel's claim to the Land of Israel is invalid and must be fiercely fought...how much more loving of the Jewish people can you get than that!

you who just sits , grabs a superstitious book called the Torah and talks like an ancient prophet... any person who goes predicting the future based on a religious book is simply pethatic, and inferior to the progressive

So, the Torah, which rails against superstition, is a superstitious, pathetic book of lies that is inferior to his "progressive" teachings. He really adores the Jews, doesn't he.

You demand bloodshed, I demand equality

Demanding that the violent enemies who persecute the Jewish people be driven from the Land of Israel is called SURVIVAL. Allowing them to stay and keep persecuting the Jews is insane, and the surest recipe for bloodshed.

So personally, I should thank you for entertaining the crowds over here... o Hitler of the Middle East

Hitler, eh? I guess wanting to remove from your midst the enemies who want you dead now equates you to Hitler. Let me tell you something: if expelling the enemy makes me a nazi in your eyes, fine, I'd rather be hated by the world as I run the bloodthirsty enemies off my land than be celebrated as they herd my people into death camps.

I met a lot of Jews from the US who actually visited Lebanon as anti-Zionist activists, they are wonderful

Of course he would feel that way - they are traitors advocating for his cause! I, too, will fondly welcome all Arab Zionists who wish to help advance my cause.

It wasn't the Arabs who persecuted the Jews, it was the Europeans, hence Zionism came from there and broke the harmony here

So, paying jizya, taking a vow of inferiority, and being beaten, raped, and periodically killed is his idea of harmony, eh? Not mine, pal.

Zionism is the ultimate enemy of the Jews because it transformed them from a religious sect and belief to a race.

I see...so, believing that the Land of Israel belongs to the Children of Israel is this sudden phenomenon that transformed Jews from a sect into a race? This "recent occurance" just happened about 4,000 years ago. Also, Judaism has absolutely no racial characteristics, so this statement is ridiculous. I tell you what, if MFL wants in the "Jewish club", he is welcome to seek out a legitimate Rabbi and begin his own conversion process, too.

Hey I am sorry for the holocaust, but it doesn't justify what they did in stealing a whole land...

How quaint that he is sorry about the holocaust, but... (love that "but") we Jews should apologize for migrating back home to the Land of Israel? We should apologize for defending ourselves against rioting, violent arabs, who routinely slaughtered us by the hundreds? We should feel bad about taking up arms to fight for our lives, and then feel bad when we were victorious and achieved statehood? I don't think so, homey.

Oh btw, did you know a lot of Hebrew words are originally ARABIC?

Since arabic came a few thousand years after hebrew, it's nice that some Israelis have incorporated arab lingo into the modern Hebrew vernacular. What the hell is the point, though?

You are reconfirming to me and others how racist you are

My sworn enemies, who seek to abolish the Jewish State, think I'M a racist for resisting against such a thing. Interesting twist, but I'll take whatever garbage they can throw at me rather than become a self-loathing collaborator against my people.

Ducky's here said...

Sorry mad zionist but if your rant is against marxistfromLebanon and includes the delirious rant about not being able to circumcise it becomes even more delirious if you are talking about the matter in a Muslim country.

Likewise your rant about kosher diets which are nearly identical to halal Muslim diets.

There are many similarities but your blind Zionist hatred won't find them.

Mad Zionist said...

Apparantly reading comprehension is not your strong-suit, Ducky. While Islamic dietary laws are VERY different from kosher dietary laws, that isn't the point. He doesn't want your naive liberalism anymore than he wants my religious zionism. He advocates arab-centric communism and the extermination of Judaism.

Take off those sunglasses, Duck, you obviously are having trouble seeing.

Mad Zionist said...

Then again, you are beautifully playing the role of his useful idiot, so don't let me get in your way.

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MarxistFromLebanon said...

MZ... your insanity never fails to amuse me... ever decided to appear on Jerry Springer? I bet they will make a special edition for you about you.

Now, first of all, Jews returning to Israel after 2000 years of Diaspora is insane after the land is inhabited by Palestinians who actually also lived in that land in parallel to the Jews, just because your Torah says so, doesn't make it God given, rather only insane people would say that. So please do not resort to a God to justify the exodus. You cannot claim out of the blues that somewhere is your land because you lived 2000 years ago, then go get it with expensive bloodshed. There are several Jews who do not follow the 10 commandments for example, are you going to stone every Jew who lusts his neighbor's wife? So if the Torah is apprehended by your perspective as bloodshed on others, then the hell with such a book, it never originated from God, if God exists. So, spare me the "Chosen People" dilemma. Again, that is a fascist racist perspective to justify bloodthirsty madmen, like yourself.

Being a Jew means also being a Jew in belief between you and whoever you worship, unless you want to follow the Qa'eda way and shove it down to everyone's throats. So again, following a superstitious single color entity that forbids Jews from interacting or marrying other Jews is Nazi like with the Aryan or Serbian like with the Orthodox.

As for the Hebrew language, bottom line, I don't see much difference between the Israelis and their neighbors ... so again, even linguistically you are not superior to anyone, except probably to yourself.

Next you will tell me I am not supposed to speak about how the Jews suffered in the Holocaust by racists like yourself... who believed they are superior than others.... well deal with it... a lot of us even do exhibitions about the Holocaust, but we also incorporate how many Communists, Gypsies, anti-Hitler Regime (such as the Swing Kids), and several others... because that is how historically it happened, and as marxists we believe that history should be reconstructed....

So eternal home? So tell me if the Torah said Beirut also, would you aim it? Of course you would, because you think you are satisfying a blood-thirsty God that way.

Finally,as Finkelstein said, less than 50% of the Jews give a damn in the US about what happens in Israel, hence the Zionists are a minority, and the freaks like you are even a more minority (thank the heavens)...

Whatever Garbage you recieved is by believing that you can after 2000 years suddenly come with more than 60,000 people to expel homes because you think "that it is eternally yours" makes me think that the Torah makes a good recycling paper... as a matter of fact... the Zionist doctrines bases its land "from the Nile to the Euphrates" , and of course if your fictious God, like all Gods, wants that, then more bloodshed is coming, and you can't blame the ones who throw "crap" in your ugly face ... rather I pity the victims who shall suffer for people who share your insanity.

So, again you are superstitious, your beliefs has been contradicted by history (if you read earlier replies), and finally, go see a psychiatrist...

Jews are equal to the Arabs to the Buddhists, to the Chinese, to the Native Americans, to the Latins, because they are humans... like everyone in the world, and if your supersitious beliefs says so (and funny you are rather one of the few to follow that belief), then you are very superstitious, worse than those native tribes....

So again, you didn't answer anything of what I said earlier (like yesterday) furthermore, you have nothing but a supersitious book to justify massacres.... go home and smoke some crack... you need it....

And you have been bothering to reply to an "Arab" who coincides to be half Lebanese, half Palestinian dubbed on his passport as a Christian (I was in campaigns to erase religion from our identification family documents, that didn't happen of course)...

So, keep living in your own little self-invented Judaism... and keep in mind, the more racist you are, the worse the backlash it will be, 2006 is just a beginning as the underdogs are catching up technologically to your racist IDF army... oh wait they are not Jews by your standards... nor is Renegade Eye, who actually even allows you to talk and defend yourself, nor Chomsky, nor Trotsky, nor anyone who tells you "you are wrong". That of course includes any Jew who mingles and marries other Sects, who believe that people are equal... or whatever.... so yes to you and your superstition... I never attacked Jews, you did... since you accuse the majority of them as non-Jews and dangerous to the Torah followers... so yes, you are the ultimate enemy to the Jews, and anyone else... and let us face it... o great Hitler of the Middle East, you bring shame to all the Jews who sought to live equally with their neighbors, whethe in the Arab World or elsewhere...

And if you want to attack a two century mode of life, remember that the Ottomans allowed people to practice their religion freely (till 1908) which PALESTINIAN Jews, like any other non-Turkish residents of the Empire, suffered...

So, anything else that sounds amusing about your superstitious beliefs you want to entertain us with? As you noticed, you are the only one barking out loud about such a lousy disgusting idea...

MFL

PS (MFL 13 - MZ 0) --) still getting pawned by an "Arab", or worse a Phoenician if I am going to play it your way (hehehehe), o poor 41 year old lunatic....

The Pagan Temple said...

I wish somebody would put me in charge of the shit, with no interference, carte blanche. My slogan would be "Let There Be Peace-Or Else".

I have this strange idea after so long they'd choose peace, real fucking fast.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

We had a similar hilarious idea for Lebanon when the political factions become naughty, devise militias of peace.... if they shoot at each other .... shoot them both :)

Renegade Eye said...

Being opposed ro Fatah, Hamas, Zionism, Hezbollah and the so called Cedar Revolution puts MFL in the spot of sheriff.

Mariamariacuchita said...

I was poking around on the internet and read rule number 4 in the Communist Rules for Revolution: "Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

I am uncertain whether or not this is a true quote, but it does ring a certain bell.

Renegade Eye said...

Maria: I doubt if you believe the Middle East is of no importance.

The Russian Revolution was based on the slogan Peace. Land and Bread. That turned out to be important. It meant end Russia's involvement in WWI, land to the peasants and factories to workers.

A divided ruling class is important to a revolution.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

There are no such things as "standard rules" of the Communist Revolution... the revolution was aimed to unite the Proletariat in Russia, with a middle run to unify Europe, and long-run, the world.

What comrade Renegade Eye said is true... the Boleshevics, and Trotsky then regarded WWI as an imperial war whereby the elites fight and only the Proletariat die... hence the call for the unity of the workers and farmers against their greedy oppressors was demanded.

MFL

Ducky's here said...

Maria, I believe you are referring to gay marriage or the right wing paranoia about the left sending U.N. blue helmets around to take their guns.

Mariamariacuchita said...

Ren, much to the contrary, I do believe that the middle east is of great importance. My family members come from both sides of the conflict.

The way that arguments are conducted is what I was referring to. I was being a wiseass, possibly too obscure.

The decision to go to war is started by the elite and the poor are left to starve, be murdered or struggle.

ducky, I am no fan of either the maniacal right wing or the corrupt self-serving left.

mfl- thanks for clarification. What does Trotsky offer today and how can these ideas be implemented in my culture which either hates its workers or treats them with indifference?

Renegade Eye said...

Maria: I'll send you an email.

ter said...

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Anonymous said...

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