tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post619513419763591947..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Venezuela Six Years after the CoupFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-16201287534074936332008-04-23T13:48:00.000-05:002008-04-23T13:48:00.000-05:00Here we are, over 5 months after the December 2, 2...Here we are, over 5 months after the December 2, 2007 Referendum... and the National Election Commission <A HREF="http://www.soberania.org/Articulos/articulo_3867.htm" REL="nofollow">STILL</A> refuses to release an official count of the ballots becuase it would reveal large svale voter fraud and tally manipulation by the Chavez government.<BR/><BR/>If THAT isn't reason enough for a coup, the NOTHING is!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-33200599977496976032008-04-23T07:50:00.000-05:002008-04-23T07:50:00.000-05:00Gee Larry, that "murdurous" Columbian FARC killer ...Gee Larry, that "murdurous" Columbian FARC killer Uribe has an 84% <A HREF="http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=13712" REL="nofollow">approval rating</A> compared to Chavez's chestnut-tossing 51%. Take away his chest-nuts and his ratings will plummet into single digits.<BR/><BR/>And I do support a coup since it's been PROVEN that Chavez assasinates and kills the opposition AND has been playing with the election system (where are the December 2, 2007 results???). After all, YOU support the coup-makers fighting Uribe, and they actually have a fully functional electoral system!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-156719264044209752008-04-22T18:27:00.000-05:002008-04-22T18:27:00.000-05:00Nice to hear the truth from FJ. He would welcome a...Nice to hear the truth from FJ. He would welcome a murderous coup. Honest enough, he is to set aside the baffle gab about democracy. It is a class war. No doubt FJ welcomed Pinocho and if it were 1938 would be an admirer of Franco.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-61869622701487793552008-04-22T17:37:00.000-05:002008-04-22T17:37:00.000-05:00Hey, if Hugo wants to drown his own kids in social...Hey, if Hugo wants to <A HREF="http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/04/17/en_eco_art_committee-handling-t_17A1521999.shtml" REL="nofollow">drown his own kids</A> in socialist bathwater, who am I to argue? But if wants any of MY kids, the b*stard will have to pay!<BR/><BR/>And larry, maybe kill? If Hugo keeps this cr*p up we are going to DEFINITELY kill some rojo rojitos w/o our eyes even becoming a little mojito.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-19109407624121184352008-04-21T21:44:00.000-05:002008-04-21T21:44:00.000-05:00"the recent bombing of the pro-American trade orga..."the recent bombing of the pro-American trade organization in Caracas."<BR/><BR/>Once again I find myself weeping. Poor, poor, little piggies. God, it can be tough sometimes pimping for imperialism! They must be praying right now for a coup that will overthrow the monkey as they refer to him and maybe kill 100,000 of those working class low life in the process.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-86412186780238308742008-04-21T14:25:00.000-05:002008-04-21T14:25:00.000-05:00Mr Lugo brought together leftist unions, indigenou...Mr Lugo brought together leftist unions, indigenous people and poor farmers into a coalition to form the centre-left Patriotic Alliance for Change. <BR/><BR/>Observers say that the man often described as the “bishop for the poor”, is a virtual political novice, best known for his advocacy of land reform and calls to renegotiate an energy treaty with neighbouring Brazil. <BR/><BR/>Speaking to his supporters at his campaign headquarters, Mr Lugo said the result showed that little people could also win and that this was the Paraguay he had dreamt about - a country for everyone. <BR/>http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20080420_another_lefty_wins_in_latin_america/steven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-46952932174973216632008-04-21T10:43:00.000-05:002008-04-21T10:43:00.000-05:00btw - Just curious, but when is Hugo going to let ...btw - Just curious, but when is Hugo going to let the Felderal Elections Commission release the official vote count from the December 2, 2007 referendum? Hmmmmm?<BR/><BR/>and is Hugo going to compensate Fedecameras with a store certificate or a promissory note for the bomb damage?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-28094567036519207302008-04-21T10:33:00.000-05:002008-04-21T10:33:00.000-05:00Even anti-Chavez people in Venezuela, trust the el...<I>Even anti-Chavez people in Venezuela, trust the electoral system</I><BR/><BR/>LOL! That was BEFORE last December... and the rest of your figures and numbers are GROSSLY outdated. His personaly popularity is in the tank. The only thing saving Chavez is that he play's Whack-a-Mole with anyone in the opposition who's head pops up.<BR/><BR/>And their supporters quickly join the growing crime statistics...<BR/><BR/>Anybody who signed the recall petition six years ago has a bulleye painted on their forehead. And he doesn't let them forget it!<BR/><BR/>btw - It turned out it was a couple cops caught on the security video of the recent bombing of the pro-American trade organization in Caracas... surprised? I'm not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-2450703737047115142008-04-20T18:46:00.000-05:002008-04-20T18:46:00.000-05:00"And forcing a businessman to sell his multi-billi..."And forcing a businessman to sell his multi-billion dollar investment for pennies is NOT "adequate" compensation. Ask the folks at Exxon-Mobil."<BR/><BR/>Aw! My heart bleeds for the poor piggies. Big Bad Chavez come and blew down their little multi-billion dollar corporation.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-11237035117050473902008-04-20T13:20:00.000-05:002008-04-20T13:20:00.000-05:00Even anti-Chavez people in Venezuela, trust the el...Even anti-Chavez people in Venezuela, trust the electoral system.<BR/><BR/>Venezuela is ranked 46th in murders, per 1,000 people.<BR/><BR/>Most recent polls show people are feeling better in Venezuela about crime.<BR/><BR/>Chavez's approval rating is at 65%.<BR/><BR/>Whole legal parties are off the ballot in Colombia, due to its leadership are dead.<BR/><BR/>Colombia's government are responsible for way more human rights violations than FARC.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-33601719630628638482008-04-20T11:31:00.000-05:002008-04-20T11:31:00.000-05:00When is the Venezuelan Electoral Commission going ...When is the Venezuelan Electoral Commission going to release the official tally of the December 2, 2007 vote?<BR/><BR/>Venezuela has one of the highest murder rates in the world... with many of the perps eventually being revealled to be members of the metro or state police departments. And forcing a businessman to sell his multi-billion dollar investment for pennies is NOT "adequate" compensation. Ask the folks at Exxon-Mobil.<BR/><BR/>And the so-called unionists you speak of being killed in Columbia are FARC'in iceholes who have kidnapped and murdered tens of thousands of innocent Columbians!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-40099054967156284782008-04-20T11:26:00.000-05:002008-04-20T11:26:00.000-05:00Sonia: You were not talking about Venezuela. The e...<I>Sonia: You were not talking about Venezuela. The elections are fair, the nationalized were compensated, nobody was killed for their politics etc. In Colombia the legal opposition to Uribe, has been killed off. More unionists are killed than anywhere.</I><BR/><BR/>Don't Bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-8064578675324380302008-04-19T20:36:00.000-05:002008-04-19T20:36:00.000-05:00I always wondered if french people were the 1st on...I always wondered if french people were the 1st ones to abolish slavery because of the code of moral or for military tactics, but I guess that's another story. Back then French were fighting against the Spanish and the English for control of territories. The Louisiana territory (it was a huge territory going from North Texas all the way to Dakota and even Canada) was sold to the Americans under Napoleon but purchased with english bonds (LOL) (because Americans had no money).<BR/>When I was a toddler I played many times in the castle of Lafayette (it's situated in a city called Chavagnac-Lafayette).<BR/>...etc<BR/>Have a good week-end yall.steven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-83963725120622723362008-04-19T20:23:00.000-05:002008-04-19T20:23:00.000-05:00PS: the French Legislative Assembly decreed full e...PS: the French Legislative Assembly decreed full equality to all Haitians on April 4, 1792.steven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-60453105764183952092008-04-19T20:20:00.000-05:002008-04-19T20:20:00.000-05:00In Haiti, slaves finally kicked out their oppresso...<I> In Haiti, slaves finally kicked out their oppressors in the early 1800s </I><BR/>The revolution in Haiti started in 1791 led under Toussaint Louverture and it culminated all the way until ... 1804 in the liberation of San Domingo.<BR/>I'm glad it happened and it happened thanks to the french ideas of the early revolution in 1789 (LIBERTY - EQUALITY - FREEDOM).<BR/><BR/>More in this link: <BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toussaint_Louverturesteven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-79496165623625486162008-04-19T18:36:00.000-05:002008-04-19T18:36:00.000-05:00Sonia,You're focusing on the effects, not the caus...Sonia,<BR/><BR/>You're focusing on the effects, not the causes. I bet Jungle Mom has got a picture of Cortez, the great evangelizer, on her wall. <BR/><BR/>Since Colombus "discovered" the area, it has essentially been one big treasure chest for Europeans. In Haiti, slaves finally kicked out their oppressors in the early 1800s. The rest of the area took longer. It is just now that countries in that region are starting to get rid of the caste system and the devastation caused by colonialism. Has there been opportunists, sure, but they have hardly been in charge for the last 500+ years. It takes time to recover from such events; countries like Venezeula and Bolivia are starting to actually do this and look like functioning democracies. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html" REL="nofollow"><BR/>Of course, this isn't to be tolerated.</A>Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230080850680753260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-35999027079628130872008-04-19T15:50:00.000-05:002008-04-19T15:50:00.000-05:00I share lots of socialist libertarian ideas. I was...I share lots of socialist libertarian ideas. I was born in France so I can't really refute my origins and my experiences on a better society; besides my ideas are to some extent in agreement with the views of my american fellows from the left but more in the century of enlightment. That said it does not mean I won't change my ideas on a society, but after what I've seen in the US (poverty, violence, frauds in the capitalist model, no healthcare, expensive education, and lack of solidarity), I can't seem to embrace the actual vision of this model. The american model was the best model in the XVIIIth and XIXth century while all the european models have failed totally. Since then there are better models all over the world, but the right keeps telling us that the US model is the best in the world (and I can't stop laughing when I hear that).<BR/>The right believes more in meritocracy, their assumptions are based on personal rewards and efforts for the "progress of the humanity". The left usually disagrees with that. It's a problem that whether it comes the left or the right, we all know that the human being cannot be equal, so the left will tend to make it more equal while the right gave up on this vision. And we can see that just this little difference on envisaging life gave a vast amount of ideas/ideologies. <BR/>We can't have everything in life, but I prefer much better a life with quality than a life with quantity: I believe in free healthcare, free education (George Washington stated we can't be free and ignorant at the same time), 30 hours of work a week, 1 month of paid vacation for everybody, and colorblind society (the 1st country in the world that believes in interracial mariages are the French). If everybody could have at least that, I would be so proud of the USA.<BR/><BR/>More socialist ideas for everybody:<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Charles Fourier (1772–1837) also saw himself as a realist, who believed that he had discovered fundamental laws that needed to be implemented to create a new society. However, his ideas were<BR/>totally different from those of Saint-Simon, and there was a vast gulf between the world he sought to create and his own life. Born in Besançon, the son of a cloth merchant, he lived humbly in boarding<BR/>houses and probably never had a sexual relationship. But the utopia that he envisaged, which he called Harmony, was focused on<BR/>feelings, passions, and sexuality, and perhaps had more points of contact with the movements of the 1960s than with the emerging<BR/>working class of his own era. Believing that most problems arose from the mismatch between people’s passions and the ways in<BR/>which society functioned, he thought it possible to resolve this conflict through the establishment of so-called phalanxes, or<BR/>communes. On the basis of a calculation of the number of<BR/>personality types that he believed to exist, he concluded that just over 1,600 people would be the optimum size of each phalanx, for this would enable all passions to be satisfied and all necessary work to be carried out.<BR/>Fourier’s basic belief was a conviction that people did not need to change: the problem was the stifling impact of current society,<BR/>which was the primary cause of human misery. Fourier also condemned the oppression of women, believing this to reveal the<BR/>malfunctioning of the social system. He did not emphasize the importance of social and economic inequality as a fundamental<BR/>cause of conflict, assuming that this could be overcome if everybody had a basic minimum, an approach he thought compatible with private property. His comparative lack of interest<BR/>in the issues of class and inequality meant that Fourierism was the least popular of the movements of early socialists, and there were few factory workers amongst his followers. But his belief that human unhappiness was caused by psychological and sexual<BR/>problems and that the remedy lay in changes in society, rather than by treating the individual, certainly anticipated many later forms of socialism.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/><I> In Michael Newman's socialism - Oxford press P.10 </I><BR/><BR/>NB: there has been a history of expellation in France and England for many centuries. Usually french people were expelled in England while English people were expelled to France, until they discovered the "new world". In Europe the law and the priests loved expelling/excommunicating people and usually they were sending them on a boat because water was the only element to purify people (Read "Madness of Civilization" from Foucault).steven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-60455513363123373302008-04-19T13:45:00.000-05:002008-04-19T13:45:00.000-05:00One last word... The elections are far from fair. ...One last word... The elections are far from fair. My son can not even renew his passport because he appears on a list for voting "wrong" . I have friends who have lost jobs, kids can not get into the universities, housing is denied. <BR/>GET REAL, people!!! Chavez is a dictator!!Rita Locahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09961929692808138092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-89055171918778739842008-04-19T13:44:00.000-05:002008-04-19T13:44:00.000-05:00We have seen a lot of slander and demonization of ...We have seen a lot of slander and demonization of socialists by some of the commentators. (And thanks, Politiques USA for pointing out the many varieties of socialism.) We have MacArthyite slanders (all socialists are really Stalinists) Lies that libertarian socialists support Stalinists etc. The need to slander and demonize socialists (both genuine ones and the self-styled) by right-wingers shows the insecurity of their beliefs. It is though they thought, "If I were to see socialists as being as sincere, honest, decent, intelligent and rational as I think I am (or pretend to be) then I guess I had better become a socialist." But support or opposition to an idea does not logically depend upon the nature of an ideas adherents. What really counts are the needs, desires and goals of the opponents. For example, the capitalist needs to maintain dominance over the working population. Socialism, by empowering the workers, is a threat to that dominance. Hence capitalist anti-socialism is rational. The same can be said of the Social Darwinist who believes an elite must dominate the mass, or the racist for whom the "superior race" must dominate the "inferior races." Socialism threatens these authoritarian hierarchies and opposition is therefore rational. Of course, demonization is more than a personal weakness. It is rooted in the need to convince the masses that socialism is not a good thing, that a condition of slavery and degradation is desirable for them. A propaganda war in other words. A war in which no holds are barred, no lie is cruel or vicious enough. And such lies then become part of right-wing ideology and are repeated by the True Believers as facts.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-73225325847725354552008-04-19T13:28:00.000-05:002008-04-19T13:28:00.000-05:00Latin America will always been in trouble with soc...Latin America will always been in trouble with socialism because of the overwhelming presence of the USA. There are other countries than Latin America with a socialist model that works 100%. The 1st model is Sweden and many other european countries (including France) that rely on socialism, but these countries don't need to include Marx or communism to develop their social model.<BR/>The term "socialism" appeared around 1827 in England because newspapers and "economists" were worried about the social conditions of their workers. Socialism is legitimate because the radical transformations of urbanization affected the worker's class especially the peasants (farmers), this is how socialism was born, and it was later argued by Karl Marx, although there was already a theoritical model of socialism (in England) adopted by the communionists.<BR/> <BR/>In France we have a plethora of know or unknown intellectuals that wrote on socialism and property. We have the anarchists (Proudhon) or the "socialists" such as Cabet, or Henri Saint-Simon, or Charles Fourrier. Some of these authors were anti-monarchists and they were wanted so the came to the US temporary until things settle down in France (IE Proudhon and Saint-Simon).<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Henri Saint-Simon (1760–1825) was a French aristocrat who defied the conventions of his social class as a student. Imprisoned by his father for refusing to take communion, he escaped, joined the army, and fought against the British in the American War of Independence. Influenced by the relative absence of social privilege in America, he renounced his title at the beginning of<BR/>the French Revolution and became convinced that science was the<BR/>key to progress. His hope, expressed in his Letters from an Inhabitant of Geneva (1802–3), was that it would be possible to<BR/>develop a society based on objective principles. His critique of existing society focused on the continuing semi-feudal power<BR/>relationships in French society rather than on capitalism itself, but his belief in classes as the primary categories of analysis, and his emphasis on the possibility of providing a scientific<BR/>understanding of historical development, had clear relevance for Marxist theory. However, unlike Marx, he did not see ownership as the most important issue. In his view, history was really based Socialism on the rise and fall of different productive and unproductive<BR/>classes in the various eras. In his own time, he grouped together the overwhelming majority of society – from factory workers to the owners of those factories – as ‘productive’, while the minority of ‘idlers’ (including the nobility and the clergy) were <BR/>‘unproductive’. Progress now depended upon the productive classes, the ‘industrial/scientific class’ becoming aware of their mission so that they could effect a transition to the new era. However, this was not simply a replacement of one class by<BR/>another, as Saint-Simon argued that the industrialists and<BR/>scientists had a wholly different set of relationships with one<BR/>another from those between members of the feudal classes. The latter based their position on power, while the industrial/scientific<BR/>class emphasized cooperation and peaceful competition. The fact<BR/>that the feudal class still maintained its position was thus a barrier to economic progress and new forms of government. During his lifetime, Saint-Simon’s ideas tended to appeal more to some sectors of the middle classes, who were attracted by the modernizing aspects of the theory, than to the working class, who were perhaps discouraged by his secular tone in a religious age.<BR/>This was remedied to an extent in his later work, in which he proposed a ‘religion of Newton’, in recognition of Newton’s role as the founder of modern science; scientists and artists should head a<BR/>new church, and he even sought to combine a secular morality with a regenerated form of Christianity, claiming that the main goals<BR/>were to eradicate poverty and to ensure that all benefited from education and employment. This widened the appeal of his ideas, and immediately after his death Saint-Simonian communities were<BR/>established in France and elsewhere. Made illegal in France in 1830, they nevertheless continued to have influence up to 1848,<BR/>with approximately 40,000 adherents. The Saint-Simonian emphasis on industrialism and administrative efficiency as the key to progress and social justice influenced thinking in many other<BR/>countries, including that of the writer Dostoevsky and other radicals in Russia. <BR/></B><BR/><I> In Michael Newman's socialism - Oxford press </I><BR/><BR/>NB: something's going to happen in Guatemala and Nicaragua in the next few months.steven rixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154964357134050639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-50146998032612236902008-04-19T11:44:00.000-05:002008-04-19T11:44:00.000-05:00Sonia: You were not talking about Venezuela. The ...Sonia: You were not talking about Venezuela. The elections are fair, the nationalized were compensated, nobody was killed for their politics etc. In Colombia the legal opposition to Uribe, has been killed off. More unionists are killed than anywhere.<BR/><BR/>CAMINO INCIERTO: In Venezuela they have state of the art voting machines. The votes are counted both online and on paper. Every neutral election observer has said Venezuela's electoral system is fair.<BR/><BR/>I think when it gets close to Chavez's end of term, they vote against term limits. Most countries don't have term limits. In the US they came because people who opposed Roosevelt were afraid he'd never loose. It's really anti-democratic.<BR/><BR/>Cuba should allow opposition parties, provided they are not based in Florida or for private property.<BR/><BR/>If capitalism is restored in Cuba, they will have food riots like Haiti, healthcare will not be free, and schools will charge $$.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-91086311963603735462008-04-19T09:11:00.000-05:002008-04-19T09:11:00.000-05:00Since we are now repeating ourselves, I see no nee...Since we are now repeating ourselves, I see no need to continue here.Rita Locahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09961929692808138092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-45448016613634421022008-04-19T08:38:00.000-05:002008-04-19T08:38:00.000-05:00Sheesh. Some of these idiots should read a book. T...Sheesh. Some of these idiots should read a book. The US has been having its way with Latin America for some time, and prior to that, another imperialist power did the same. Consequently, there have been plenty of proxy dictatorships for the empire in Latin America.<BR/><BR/>I suggest Sonia and friends should consider the plight of workers in Colombia, and some other Central American states. They'll soon learn a lesson or two about what corporate-friendly dictatorships mean when it comes to freedom.<BR/><BR/>Tossers.thrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14877037272249708164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-49638437724282566522008-04-19T07:59:00.000-05:002008-04-19T07:59:00.000-05:00Graeme,Your thugs had their chance, for pretty muc...Graeme,<BR/><BR/><I>Your thugs had their chance, for pretty much the last 500 years. I love how you all wine so much the few times you're not in the seat of power.</I> <BR/><BR/>It's YOUR thugs who have been in power. History of Latin America is on long list of "glorious revolutions" where "the liberators of the people" have been turning into bloodthirsty dictators with amazing regularity. From Cortez (whose arrival provoked a popular uprising against Aztec tyranny), to Haiti's revolution of 1804 (which ended with a black king being crowned) to Bolivar to Mexican Revolution of the 1910's (which led to the present Chiapas-oppressing Mexican government) to Castro, to Chavez.<BR/><BR/>The pattern is ALWAYS the same:<BR/><BR/>1. An underdog proclaims himself a liberator of the poor people by denouncing the rich and the foreigners.<BR/><BR/>2. He kills the rich, expels the foreigners and establishes a dictatorship.<BR/><BR/>3. The dictator (or his successors) gradually reconcile themselves with foreign investors, set up sweatshops and tourist resorts.<BR/><BR/>4. Another "liberator" emerges and the whole charade starts again...<BR/><BR/>And meanwhile, Western idealists like you get all excited everytime a cynical demagogue rails against "evil capitalists" and "gringo exploiters"...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-59697239895661518562008-04-19T02:26:00.000-05:002008-04-19T02:26:00.000-05:00Jungle Mom,Your thugs had their chance, for pretty...Jungle Mom,<BR/><BR/>Your thugs had their chance, for pretty much the last 500 years. I love how you all wine so much the few times you're not in the seat of power. All you have to do is move next door to Colombia. I'm sure there are some pagans to brainwash in Uribe's paramilitary paradise. Just don't try to organize them.Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230080850680753260noreply@blogger.com