tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post115553075975698789..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: "World Trade Center" Oliver Stone's Apolitical Movie?Frank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1157547497395417992006-09-06T07:58:00.000-05:002006-09-06T07:58:00.000-05:00shows the hypocrisy of the far right. before WTC, ...shows the hypocrisy of the far right. before WTC, Stone was a 'typical America-hating, Hollywood leftist.' Now he's a great patriot.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08797243971179303040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155703045080726552006-08-15T23:37:00.000-05:002006-08-15T23:37:00.000-05:00This critical attack on Stone's film as being "pol...This critical attack on Stone's film as being "politically dishonest" is a hard sell. To back up this criticism, this is the reason given:<BR/><BR/> "The viewer, it is made clear, will know only what McLoughlin and Jimeno knew that day. Why is that an advantage? What is the point of art in that case? This was the premise of United 93, and it failed in that instance, too."<BR/><BR/>But the viewer does know more because it is etched in their minds from five years of 9/11 information overload. It's as if the viewers of these two films have been residing on a different planet and have no idea what the facts were preceding these series of events. Please give the viewing public some credit as I am quite sure most were glued to their TV sets and absorbing news reports and analyses by experts ad nauseum.<BR/>To now state that because no attempt at any kind of political discourse was inserted by Stone and thereby calling it "dishonest" is in itself dishonest. Keep the political spin balance between Fox and CNN but leave the movie industry somewhat above the fray. It is entertainement is'nt it?romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15988548647887978919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155662880870807172006-08-15T12:28:00.000-05:002006-08-15T12:28:00.000-05:00Stone can do what he wants.The discussion is open,...Stone can do what he wants.<BR/><BR/>The discussion is open, of Stone and his time in history.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155658176980442242006-08-15T11:09:00.000-05:002006-08-15T11:09:00.000-05:00That article is bollocks, its art, Stone can do wh...That article is bollocks, its art, Stone can do what he wants, what did they want? Some movie that you need a tin foil hat to sit through? There's a time for conspiracy theory and a time for capturing the humanity of it all.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155633689228856002006-08-15T04:21:00.000-05:002006-08-15T04:21:00.000-05:00I disagree with beetroot and Pagan; the movie was ...<I>I disagree with beetroot and Pagan; the movie was not apolitical. Reread the article. Sonia recognized Stone made a right turn.</I><BR/><BR/>I never said the film was apolitical as I have not seen the film; neither am I going to trust that review. <BR/><BR/>What I was saying was 'thanks Oliver if you did not do a political movie'...you and the rest of Hollywood do not do good war movies and your politics is often just silly liberal nonsense. <BR/><BR/>Roman mentions the film Reds: didn't see the movie as I read the terrible reviews before hand. <BR/><BR/>Hollywood should stick to doing what it does best - fluff.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155630090472592292006-08-15T03:21:00.000-05:002006-08-15T03:21:00.000-05:00Sonia:That is what Stone was like before the movie...Sonia:That is what Stone was like before the movie. He believed the 9-11 tragedy, was a reaction to injustice, particularly the Middle East.<BR/><BR/>I never liked his politics. I never cared to see the human side of Nixon or Kissinger. There wasn't much conspiracy to JFK's killer.<BR/><BR/>I did like Natural Born Killers.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with beetroot and Pagan; the movie was not apolitical. Reread the article. Sonia recognized Stone made a right turn.<BR/><BR/>It certainly is not the last 9-11 movie. Maybe Mel Gibson will make one.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155623400829516042006-08-15T01:30:00.000-05:002006-08-15T01:30:00.000-05:00, I never saw Alexander either, but I do know one ...<I>, I never saw Alexander either, but I do know one of the major reasons it was criticized was because Alexander was protrayed as a homosexual</I><BR/><BR/>Stone's Alexander was criticized for being boring, not for being gay. He wasn't very gay in the film - raping Rosario Dawson doesn't count as gay in my book... <BR/><BR/>Ren,<BR/><BR/>I don't think your quote refers to 'World Trade Center' (the movie)... And I am sure bell hooks hated the movie. The only revolt there is a right-wing one...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155612768510279762006-08-14T22:32:00.000-05:002006-08-14T22:32:00.000-05:00This is from Hitchens in The Atlantic Online about...This is from Hitchens in The Atlantic Online about Oliver Stone: " thus sat on a stage with Oliver Stone, who spoke with feeling about something he termed "the revolt of September 11," and with bell hooks, who informed a well-filled auditorium of the Lincoln Center that those who had experienced Spike Lee's movie about the bombing of a Birmingham, Alabama, church in 1963 would understand that "state terrorism" was nothing new in America. <BR/><BR/>These were not off-the-cuff observations. I challenged Stone to reconsider his view of the immolation of the World Trade Center as a "revolt." He ignored me. Later he added that this rebellion would soon be joined by the anti-globalization forces of the Seattle protesters. When he was asked by a member of the audience to comment on the applause for the September 11 massacres in Arab streets and camps, he responded that the French Revolution, too, had been greeted by popular enthusiasm."Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155600320946813432006-08-14T19:05:00.000-05:002006-08-14T19:05:00.000-05:00Remember Warren Beatty's "Reds" back in 1981. It g...Remember Warren Beatty's "Reds" back in 1981. It got three academy awards and nominated for a whole bunch more. The general public is able to discern propaganda from biographical story telling that is both entertaining and interesting. The story of John Reed like the 9/11 movie, have deep human interest components. Hollywood knows what people want. This is more about making money than promoting political views. <BR/>As I recall, no one was complaining about political indoctrination at the time. Although the net and blogging were more just between academic eggheads with computer lab connections back then.romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15988548647887978919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155583144399860132006-08-14T14:19:00.000-05:002006-08-14T14:19:00.000-05:00Have not seen the film so there is not much I can ...Have not seen the film so there is not much I can say about it. <BR/><BR/>But why do people want it to be a political film? Do they want some Michael Moore type effort? Or some kind of John Wayne horror? (Do you remember that crap he made about Vietnam?) <BR/><BR/>It’s still a very difficult topic for film makers in the US. It took most of the US media over a year to get up off its knees about 9/11. <BR/><BR/>It took Hollywood a long long time to make a decent film about Vietnam. <BR/><BR/>In general Hollywood makes dreadful war movies and political films. <BR/><BR/>So let’s rejoice that Stone didn’t go blundering into this one.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155576295542626512006-08-14T12:24:00.000-05:002006-08-14T12:24:00.000-05:00Renegade, I think you missed the whole point of St...Renegade, I think you missed the whole point of Stones movie. It wasn't meant to be a political movie, or a rehash of old conspiracy theories, or even so much a call to patriotism. I haven't seen the film yet, but going on what I've heard and read, it seems to be concerned with gauging the impact of 9/11 on a human level.<BR/><BR/>In other words, he doesn't concern himself here with the causes, real or imagined, of the event, but with it's effects on us as a people, and as individuals. <BR/><BR/>The heroes of the film are probably meant to be symbolic to an extent. I am guessing that they make it out at the end, or maybe they die, or whatever. But whatever happens is probably largely symbolic as well. <BR/><BR/>I would imagine that the two characters, while they are buried beneath the rubble, aren't discussing international politics, or Islamic fundamentalism, or anything like that. They are probabl wondering if they will survive, if they will ever see their families again, and what will happen to them if they die.<BR/><BR/>If they somehow survive I am thinking this might possibly have been meant as symbolic of Americans surviving a major catastrophe and pulling themselves togrther, etc.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I never saw Alexander either, but I do know one of the major reasons it was criticized was because Alexander was protrayed as a homosexual. A good portion ofthe movie also seems to have been revolved around his relationship with his mother, whom he suppossedly hated. So here again, he seems to have been more focused on the inner workings of the man himself, not on the larger events his life revolved around. The same seems to be the case with the 9/11 movie.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155572562589063162006-08-14T11:22:00.000-05:002006-08-14T11:22:00.000-05:00Redwine is correct, all historical accounts are su...Redwine is correct, all historical accounts are subject to interpretation and depend on ones filters. Go, but use your power of critical analysis.<BR/><BR/>Beakerkin, I don't doubt you are right about relative skill levels, I am no fan of any of those democrats. I couldnt support any of the people you mentioned due to ideological differences I have with them, and of which there are very few between R's and D's.troutskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020298501632120830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155570185781899202006-08-14T10:43:00.000-05:002006-08-14T10:43:00.000-05:00Betmo, with this reasoning one should never watch ...Betmo, with this reasoning one should never watch any film on history or politics - or on gardening or cooking, because those can be political as often as the eyes of the beholder wish so... Stone is far from being my favorite director: but 9-11 - int this one - is a pretext, not a tool. We did not enjoy particularly the WW's, and I doubt Jews would have enjoyed so much the Holocaust, or the beheaded French nobility the Revolution: that does not make movies like Train de vie or Danton "tools". Oh yes, 9-11 is very close: and if the Stone movie stinks of propaganda the public does have the right to punish the author and boycot the film. (That is not happening to my knowledge.) I have seen several propaganda movies on 9-11, and haven't seen so many protesting against those movies of poor quality and taste (about fireworkers, bad terrorists etc). Is this because Stone is famous? Or did he exploit the nature of violence and serial killing in Natural Born Killers for instance?Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155570129983006062006-08-14T10:42:00.000-05:002006-08-14T10:42:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155568657454383292006-08-14T10:17:00.000-05:002006-08-14T10:17:00.000-05:00as an upstate new yorker who had family in the cit...as an upstate new yorker who had family in the city during 9/11, i wish that people would stop exploiting it. if anyone thinks that this movie and any of the others isn't about exploitation for profits- then they are crazy. this has nothing to do with painting a picture- we got that during the event from live news coverage. this is about using the folks who died period. shame on oliver stone and shame on the gop for continuing to try and use 9/11 as a tool.billiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206096509976316141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155562912256837282006-08-14T08:41:00.000-05:002006-08-14T08:41:00.000-05:00To make the obvious joke about JFK, is Stone going...To make the obvious joke about <I>JFK</I>, is Stone going to have a "one plane" theory, that one plane swerved so it could impact twice?David Broderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519934479228292062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155557966089558732006-08-14T07:19:00.000-05:002006-08-14T07:19:00.000-05:00World Trade actually is a very political film. A v...World Trade actually is a very political film. A very right-wing, pro-religious, political film. Nothing wrong with that, but a bit surprising coming from Oliver Stone...<BR/><BR/>Apparently, he left the left (along with Hitch and many others)...<BR/><BR/>Another traitor for you to hiss about...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155552864279345352006-08-14T05:54:00.000-05:002006-08-14T05:54:00.000-05:00Ren, regarding our visitors am glad ceasefire may ...Ren, regarding our visitors am glad ceasefire may have been reached. Let peace reign on this blog.<BR/><BR/>Turning back to the spirit of this post and at the risk of sounding like a prophet of doom, I foresee intense frustration, on a scale much more intense than witnessed ever before by humankind, anywhere on the planet.<BR/><BR/>How far in the face of tyranny, can anyone get in promoting freedom (a fundamental principle) without loosing all freedoms?! How can it be done without loosing all freedoms? That in itself looks like a crumbling pillar and an end to me. <BR/><BR/>If I consider what beakerkin said: <B><I>"...Even in those scenarios it is impossible to prepare for every possibility..." </I></B><BR/><BR/>Then this war just cannot be defended, unless it is possible to think of all the possibilities any attack may take, something that cannot be done. It could be deemed unrealistic to think otherwise.?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01992276117548193938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155536891254613732006-08-14T01:28:00.000-05:002006-08-14T01:28:00.000-05:00TroutskyUnlike you I lived through the Guliani adm...Troutsky<BR/><BR/>Unlike you I lived through the Guliani administration and 9-11. I was there on 9-11 and in 93 as well. The mayor did an excellent job on 9-11 and any second guessing of an unpredictable event as opposed to a hurricane in NO is unreasonable.<BR/><BR/>There are reasonable events that cities can prepare for blizzards, hurricanes and earthquakes. Even in those scenerios it is impossible to prepare for every possibility. At best this is sour gapes and at worst crass stupidity.<BR/><BR/>As far as freedom fries that is okay just give me store brand ketchup. FYI I own stock in Heinz<BR/>but I stopped buying the stuff long ago.<BR/><BR/>Troutsky I do hope we get to see President Guiliani or Bloomburg.<BR/>Either one is far more skilled the John " Gomer" Kerry. Hillary " Lewinky" Clinton or Al " Photo Op" Gore.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155534301329488042006-08-14T00:45:00.000-05:002006-08-14T00:45:00.000-05:00NY people like beakerkin are so obviously affected...NY people like beakerkin are so obviously affected, they have so internalized the event, they make particularly lousy analysts.The MAYOR CANNOT BE CRITICIZED, LONG LIVE RUDY.Freedom fries and all that other garbled mumbo.Stone will make lots of money and thats the art he has perfected.Guiliani will get money from guys like beak.troutskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020298501632120830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1155532517356078482006-08-14T00:15:00.000-05:002006-08-14T00:15:00.000-05:00Lets see we are going to second guess Rudy Guilian...Lets see we are going to second guess Rudy Guiliani for an event that nobody could have concieved. As someone who was there on 9-11 you are off your rocker. Were you this critical of the Mayor of New Orleans. Should NYC prepare for Space Aliens, Tidal Waves and shortages of KFC? One can not prepare for every scenerio. Any attempt to criticize the Mayor is <BR/>sour grapes. Even the dolt in France praise Guilani. The mayor calmed NYC and the nation. Even far left nuts like radio host Lynne Samuels who called the Mayor Ghouliani praised his performance on 9-11.<BR/><BR/>At another point I will go into the treasonous behavior of the far left while the buildings were still<BR/>burning. In short on that Saturday<BR/>the far left held a Nuremburg styled anti semitic " peace protest" and blamed the Jooooos for 9-11. I was at that rally and saw the whole thing.<BR/><BR/>More to the point Stone has made a film where 9-11 is the backdrop. This is similar to numerous films that have used Pearl Harbor as a backdrop. From Here to Eternity was set in the time of Pearl Harbor but not a Pearl Harbor film.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.com