tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post8969857676422834364..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Israel’s Massacre in Gaza: A Balance-Sheet of the StruggleFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-58536884486928899642009-02-04T20:08:00.000-06:002009-02-04T20:08:00.000-06:00Hossam el-Hamalawy: Thank you for visiting.In Tel ...Hossam el-Hamalawy: Thank you for visiting.<BR/><BR/>In Tel Aviv 10,000 Israelis protested its government's policies in Gaza. In addition there has been some antiwar activity, right at the Israeli border.<BR/><BR/>I was surprised, I agreed with what Tony Cliff said in that article.<BR/><BR/>I have disagreements with Cliff about the anti-imperialist bourgeoisie.<BR/><BR/>Regards.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-5013636901148303492009-02-04T18:34:00.000-06:002009-02-04T18:34:00.000-06:00"One must also not forget the working class of Isr..."One must also not forget the working class of Israel itself. The workers and poor of Israel gain nothing from Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. Instead, their civil liberties are eroded in the name of security, and the massive military budget leads to huge cuts in public spending and widespread poverty. "<BR/>They have a lot to gain actually. It's a regressive class, and cannot be won over to the Palestinian revolution, coz no matter how much the Israeli worker is "oppressed", he/she shares the same interest as their elite in the physical exclusion of the Palestinians.. <BR/>http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1998/05/israel.htmHossam el-Hamalawyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423830284734360965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-57968070367725267212009-02-02T19:46:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:46:00.000-06:00Pagan: My point is that to create a small nation i...Pagan: My point is that to create a small nation in 2009 is creating pocket change. I'm not talking as much about established small countries as Sweden. I'm talking about a Kosovo or Palestine.<BR/><BR/>Gert: I was comparing 1905 Russia to 1917 Russia.<BR/><BR/>I'm not talking about abolishing religion in Iran. I'm saying the next big uprising, won't be sabotaged by Islamism.<BR/><BR/>I'm aware of contradictory aspects.<BR/><BR/>The good thing in Iran, is the internal opposition, isn't asking the US to intervene.<BR/><BR/>I feel safe calling Hamas reactionary. Read their charter.<BR/><BR/>Ducky: Not only is Mubarek tough to dislodge, some opposition leaders are no bargain either.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-42673523972664779252009-02-02T15:45:00.000-06:002009-02-02T15:45:00.000-06:00Socialism in Egypt?First they have to get rid of o...Socialism in Egypt?<BR/><BR/>First they have to get rid of our stooge Mubarek. He gets everything he wants from us in return for cooperating with Israel. Tough to dislodge.Ducky's herehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14608115001116619877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-39306927634421130682009-02-02T10:19:00.000-06:002009-02-02T10:19:00.000-06:00Ren:"Russia was religious at the start of the 1905...<B>Ren:</B><BR/><BR/><I>"Russia was religious at the start of the 1905 Revolution. That changed quickly."</I><BR/><BR/>I hope you're not arguing here that today's Russia is mainly atheist because that's not true IMHO. The only revolution that springs to my mind as being a counter-theocratic was the French Revolution. But today France may have the strongest separation of Church and State, it also has complete freedom to worship and the usual majority quota (85 - 90 %) of people that consider themselves believers (mainly Catholic).<BR/>-------<BR/>You call Hamas 'reactionary' but in this context that's nothing more than a normative term with very little actual meaning: the kind of repression they are being accused of is hardly a reactionary prerogative: the Bolsheviks were hardly angels. Show me a revolutionary movement that hasn't resorted to repression at some point. And not involving Hamas at the political level was a mistake even our mental midget Tone the Bliar is beginning to see...<BR/>-------<BR/>As regards "This time the mullahs will be swept away", maybe but I doubt that the deeply religious nature of Iran will change any time soon. You only need to look at a city like Isfahan to see how deeply rooted Islam is in Iran's collective psyche.<BR/><BR/>Also, for a 'reactionary country', Iran has an astonishingly high level of education, with what I believe to be the highest number of university degrees among women in the entire world. Perhaps Islam's once legendary thirst for knowledge and scientific advancement has survived intact in that country, despite the Shi'ites following a version of Islam that leads directly to theocracy and an Islamic clergy? Or perhaps these very same reactionaries revived that part of Islam?<BR/><BR/>I think the Left continues to make a historical mistake by confounding secularism with 'anti-religionism' (for want of a better term). Religion isn't going to go away, no matter how much enlightenment you throw at it. Better to simply co-exist with it is what I say.Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-24705583841376622712009-02-02T09:40:00.000-06:002009-02-02T09:40:00.000-06:00Hey Ren, I think the "world economy" is what is be...Hey Ren, I think the "world economy" is what is best describe as "pocket change", or it might well be before its over. I do admit though I can see a scenario where the mullahs are swept from power. I don't know whether or not it will be socialists that do it, but that's very possible. Egypt I'm not so sure about. By the way, small nations don't necessarily have to not be prosperous, nor do their citizens necessarily always have to get by as cheap labor for another country's workforce.<BR/><BR/>Even if it started out that way for a while, it doesn't mean it would be that way from now on. At least it would beat depending on UN welfare and Arab despots and "charities".SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-50835635260043164192009-02-02T01:07:00.000-06:002009-02-02T01:07:00.000-06:00Gert: It won't be solved by the political players ...Gert: It won't be solved by the political players of Zionism, Fatah or Hamas. <BR/><BR/>My group believes the key to the Middle East, is socialism in Iran and Egypt. Those countries are so important, that Israel and Palestine are a sideshow.<BR/><BR/>Russia was religious at the start of the 1905 Revolution. That changed quickly. Iran is Russia 1905. This time the mullahs will be swept away.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you about the two state solution, or atleast as its been presented.<BR/><BR/>The right to self determination isn't absolute. It means not oppressing a minority.<BR/><BR/>National liberation in an age where we have a world economy, is a joke. Small countries like what is proposed as Palestine, is pocket change in the world horizen.<BR/><BR/>DDjango: I agree. Hamas isd utterly reactionary.<BR/><BR/>K. I'm coming.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-86911262116909399312009-02-01T16:16:00.000-06:002009-02-01T16:16:00.000-06:00Hi, Ren. Drop by Citizen K. today and pick up your...Hi, Ren. <BR/><BR/>Drop by Citizen K. today and pick up your Premio Dardos award.K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-88146890072617817652009-02-01T16:01:00.000-06:002009-02-01T16:01:00.000-06:00As much as I despise the "disproportionate respons...As much as I despise the "disproportionate response" by the Israelis, I can summon little support for Hamas.<BR/><BR/>I was, in fact, enraged by a recent report that Hamas was crowing that its organization was intact and casualties among its leadership were light. No apologies or grief for the tragic losses among its own people. Disgusting opportunists and adventurists, if you ask me.<BR/><BR/>This folly will stop (maybe) only if and when the West withdraws its support for Israel, stops shipping weapons and money to half the factions in the region, and is prepared to assist in developing and then enforcing a united Palestinian state.<BR/><BR/>I doubt whether the people of this region, regardless of their religion, really want to continue killing each other. I also don't see the development of alliances built on political ideologies.ddjangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02466304895340888414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-81380755002978987252009-02-01T14:13:00.000-06:002009-02-01T14:13:00.000-06:00Pagan:"I'm just sentimental that way."How magnanim...Pagan:<BR/><BR/><I>"I'm just sentimental that way."</I><BR/><BR/>How magnanimous that for the sentiments of an otherwise non-descript higher mammal like you, the rights of an entire People, once (and not long ago) indigenous to most of what is now Israel, must be sacrificed. How can you sit in front of your tooter and with a straight face demand that the Palestinians nominate honest brokers to negotiate in good faith?<BR/><BR/>A democratic and secular one state of Israel and Palestine would still be a homeland for Jews too. With Judeophobia such an opinion has nothing to do. Perhaps you're a Judeo<I>phile?</I> That would be the sort of hooliganism I've learnt to expect from mouse brains like you...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-45749516639296462202009-02-01T13:59:00.000-06:002009-02-01T13:59:00.000-06:00As regards a Socialist solution, I think it's far ...As regards a Socialist solution, I think it's far less likely to happen than a worldwide grassroots movement, capable of pressurising governments in many places in the world. Like businessmen follow the money, politicians follow the votes. The emerging grassroots movement we're seeing is steadily gaining ground: I know for a fact that some British politicians are starting to listen and will already be hedging their bets with regards to whether supporting such a people's movement could electorally speaking be a good move or not.<BR/><BR/>The climate is also good for irrigating such seedling movements: the world over people are having enough of the old paradigms on peace, security, Israel and economics. Davos looks like many to some Dinosaurs waiting for the asteroid to hit. The US is slowly embarking on a very wide U-turn in many areas.<BR/><BR/>Gaza has been called by some 'Israel's <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_Massacre" REL="nofollow">Sharpeville'</A>.<BR/><BR/>But I know the usual suspects on this forum who will dismiss it all as fantasy: they're the ones that watched the world go by whenever a grassroots liberation movement changed a part of the world. These same people believe that the Rights common folk now enjoy (at least in large parts of the world) always were and always are, presumably given by G-d... But it ain't so...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-28015792421790016072009-02-01T13:37:00.000-06:002009-02-01T13:37:00.000-06:00Without any mass mobilisation, and/or without a po...Without any mass mobilisation, and/or without a powerful backer (US or EU) to apply seriously painful pressure on Israel, even a unity Fatah/Hamas government is in no position at all to negotiate more than a fiefdom for the Palestinians. This will of course not be acceptable to most Palestinians and the trouble would inevitable continue.<BR/><BR/>Those who (like good ole' Pagan) can't see that the power differential simply demotivates Israel from making any 'concessions', are blind to the dynamics of this conflict for the last 40 years.<BR/><BR/>Pagan expects Hamas like model school children to sit in class, well behaved and praised for taking it all in. Their reward for good behaviour, a few crumbs (bantustans), should please them, OR ELSE!!! <I>Or else?</I> Or else Israel can claim once again they 'have no partner' and can continue to build settlements.<BR/><BR/>With Netanscescu soon to be on the throne (expectations are such) we'll have to see if Israel's own intransigence can still be Hasbara sold as 'we're the victims' and 'they only want to shoot, not talk' (a la Peres), especially since as world opinion of Israel is at an all time low and the drip-drip effect of bad publicity continues to do damage.<BR/><BR/>They can put another x,000 of Palestinians through the meat grinder of Israel's 'self-defence' and try and squeeze Hamas dry like a lemon, it won't change anything: without power the Palestinians will continue to remain peas in the soup and Israel will not 'concede' anything of value, not even with the most 'civilised' (read: hammered into submission) of Palestinian 'negotiating partners'.<BR/><BR/>In many respects for Hamas and the Palestinians, in the absence of strong US pressure, perhaps International boycotts or blockades, perhaps even the least likely - military intervention on behalf of the Palestinians, a status quo is the best thing for them: without serious negotiating power any agreement may very well be like 'from the frying pan into the fire', leaving them with a permanently 'negotiated' third Naqba.<BR/><BR/>At least the status quo offers the hope of future world support or a future reaction to fully accomplished Apartheid.Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-28278676675046829772009-01-31T18:18:00.000-06:002009-01-31T18:18:00.000-06:00There is no threat to Israel, see Stradfor.com.There is no threat to Israel, see Stradfor.com.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-40674587598607086172009-01-31T01:16:00.000-06:002009-01-31T01:16:00.000-06:00Now come on, Ren, I ain't the one that said nature...Now come on, Ren, I ain't the one that said nature abhors a vacuum and applied that to Hamas's failures. The writer of the article was the one that implied something else coming up in its place, who says that something else has to be a resurgence of Fatah, why can't it be something new?<BR/><BR/>I also never said anything about Israel being eternal, you're confusing me with somebody else. <BR/><BR/>They are however a state, and I personally hope they stay a state, and I hope they stay a Jewish state, or at least predominantly Jewish. I'm just sentimental that way.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-21885659164215576042009-01-31T00:56:00.000-06:002009-01-31T00:56:00.000-06:00Tere: See this. That is closer to my views.JDHURF...Tere: See <A HREF="http://www.marxist.com/what-is-really-behind-food-crisis.htm" REL="nofollow">this</A>. That is closer to my views.<BR/><BR/>JDHURF: In the real world, it's negotiations between reactionary parties, who can't put together a plan to satisfy anyone. You are calling for support for the road map. The Palestinian state will be like walled, culturally isolated prison. Hamas and Fatah will allow no dissent. Just jolting Egypt, can change the game.<BR/><BR/>Pagan: Hamas and Fatah are the players. They would settle for a fiefdom. Israel isn't negotiating in good faith, and probably never will.<BR/><BR/>No state is eternal. Wars and revolutions don't respect borders. Israel is only 61 years old.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-40226513142477156822009-01-30T16:53:00.000-06:002009-01-30T16:53:00.000-06:00I agree with you 100% that socialism in Egypt woul...I agree with you 100% that socialism in Egypt would completely alter the Israel-Palestine conflict, but short of that - which is really some fantastic, distant hope - something must be done immediately and the two-state settlement is a great first step in the long, gradual process of building socialist Jewish-Arab cooperation in the region.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-821902352166333182009-01-30T16:39:00.000-06:002009-01-30T16:39:00.000-06:00With what Israel spends on weapons is settled the ...With what Israel spends on weapons is settled the problem of hunger in the world.Los blogs are publishing the Manifesto of Solidarity, you would you?Unahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259832598217276587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-20461069997680408032009-01-30T08:37:00.000-06:002009-01-30T08:37:00.000-06:00Here's one I like-"Nature abhors a vacuum: if Hama...Here's one I like-<BR/><BR/>"Nature abhors a vacuum: if Hamas discredits itself in the eyes of the Palestinian masses, something will take its place, and that something might be far more dangerous to Israel."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, or, how about the possibility that something might actually be a good-faith negotiating partner, someone with reasonable expectations and demands, and with the integrity to adhere to whatever concessions it makes, unlike Hamas, and who might actually work for the long term good of the Palestinian people in mind instead of their own corrupt aims, unlike Fatah.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-45582522042011775162009-01-30T07:58:00.000-06:002009-01-30T07:58:00.000-06:00The US has been pressuring Israel since the days o...The US has been pressuring Israel since the days of the Clinton Administration. Nothing has changed, and nothing is going to change. It all comes down to what I said before, the only cure for this failing Israel willingly ceding control of ALL of Jerusalem to either a Palestinian state or Jordan, is to separate the Israelis and Palestinians, keep them away from each others borders.<BR/><BR/>There will never be a post-Jewish Israel, which is really the aim behind all this. Never gonna happen. There are too many people who are determined there will never be a post-Jewish Israel, which of course would not be named Israel but probably Palestine.<BR/><BR/>I am just one among many of those people. If we have our way there will always be a Jewish state of the Jews, for the Jews, and by the Jews only. The sooner all the little Judophobes of the world wrap their heads around that reality, the sooner there can be some semblance of peace. Until then, let the body count keep piling up.<BR/><BR/>As Billy Graham always says, "war never killed anyone".SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-51527137885395429652009-01-30T01:10:00.000-06:002009-01-30T01:10:00.000-06:00Pagan: The section titles are debatable. The cont...Pagan: The section titles are debatable. The content is correct. It doesn't at all say Hamas was the victor. Israel is going to pressured by the US to make concessions.<BR/><BR/>Roman: Hamas's charter also says the Bolshevik and French Revolution, were led by Zionists. I think Hamas believes in a two state solution. They will ruthlessly rule a Palestinian state, that will supply cheap labor to israel. Their tactics reflect believing in a two state solution. I think the two state solution is like Ireland in the 1920s.<BR/><BR/>JDHURF: Socialism in Egypt would quicken the process.<BR/><BR/>Socialism in Egypt and Iran, would be the key to all of the Middle East.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-9639883691189535962009-01-29T18:50:00.000-06:002009-01-29T18:50:00.000-06:00I agree that the long-term goal should be the revo...I agree that the long-term goal should be the revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist state and that the third camp of the workers must be organized, politicized and work for a socialist alternative that in the distant future finally realizes early binational, socialist Zionism (Jewish-Arab cooperation). However, these are clearly long-term goals that I don’t intend to see realized in my lifetime.<BR/>This long-term goal is not an all or nothing campaign, it must be approached, worked for and realized through gradual, incremental steps, the first of which must be a peaceful two-state settlement and only then from there can further goals be striven for.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-22204961977512379642009-01-29T16:37:00.000-06:002009-01-29T16:37:00.000-06:00The only solution therefore is the abolition of ca...<EM> The only solution therefore is the abolition of capitalism. For this, the revolutionary collaboration of the Israeli and Palestinian masses is required.</EM><BR/><BR/>Yeah..right! Like that's ever going to happen!<BR/><BR/>How about a REALISTIC approach to solving this impasse. A step by step approach of examining each side's expectations and setting up negotiating teams and actually negotiating. <BR/>Step #1 Hamas must change the wording in their charter.. you know.. the part about destroying the nation of Israel.romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15988548647887978919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-63625893940614520672009-01-29T16:28:00.000-06:002009-01-29T16:28:00.000-06:00Walter needs somebody to bring him up to speed on ...Walter needs somebody to bring him up to speed on what a Pyrrhic victory is. That's where you claim victory despite suffering such severe losses there is a reasonable question as to whether it was worth the effort. Walter seems to have forgotten that Hamas won this battle-well according to them-so seeing as how they sustained far more damage than the Israelis, they should be the ones tagged with the Pyrrhic victory label.<BR/><BR/>As for the Israeli working class, nothing will erode your civil liberties quite like a rocket on your rooftop.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.com