tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post54302404561350152..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: The 2009 Election Results: Reflecting the State of the Class Struggle in South AfricaFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-78984712177326991242009-11-09T10:11:06.705-06:002009-11-09T10:11:06.705-06:00Dear all, some facts:
1. South Africa has the bigg...Dear all, some facts:<br />1. South Africa has the biggest poverty/wealth gap in the world.<br />2. This was achieved through a sellout between the petite bourgeois nationalist black leadership of the ANC and predominantly white mining capital. The pact between them is called the Mining Charter.<br />3. The majority of desperately poor people are black. The minority wealthy ruling class is now non-racial although still predominantly white.<br />4. Poverty spawns crime. <br />5. The majority of poor people (the working class and the lumpen proletariat) happen to be black. Thus it is only logical in a society structured on private property and reflecting a definite racial hue, the majority of criminals against property will be black and poor.<br />6. Most of the most heinous criminals of Apartheid are living the high life having structured black economic empowerment deals with the Black petite bourgeois leaders of he ANC. Non of these fascist Nazis have ever been brought to book for their crimes.<br />7. I live in South Africa, not behind a wall of a gated community with private mercenary security but in a very non-racial former white working class suburb.<br />8. Unfortunately crime in South Africa is very violent, reflecting the desperation of those who commit it, and crime is a reflection of the failed leadership of the liberation movement in dealing with the key questions that confront the society as a consequence of more than 300 years of colonial abuse and exploitation.David van Wykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02207441647575490348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-39384268187116843212009-05-25T08:51:33.721-05:002009-05-25T08:51:33.721-05:00All very predictable excuses offered up by the pse...All very predictable excuses offered up by the pseudo science of the Marxist "criminologists / sociologists" set but in reality, complete crap.<br /><br />It may have applied to some degree in the US which is why I didn't mention the US, but in the European countries I have mentioned and Australia it is total crap. Denmark, Norway and Sweden didn't have "ghettos" until very recently, and they are not areas of actual poverty but voluntary enclaves of ethnicity. The Nordic bloc never imported foreign workers to make up a deficit, all of their immigration has come from purely "humanitarian" motivation and they have been well looked after.<br /><br />In the UK as well, not only do non-whites have laws that discriminate in their favour for employment along with race quotas everyone has equal access to social security, and so in the worst case, the poorest non-white is as poor as the poorest white.<br /><br />Your excuses do not hold water.<br /><br />And since when was rape and gang rape a crime of "poverty?"The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-39631358189782800742009-05-19T08:41:00.000-05:002009-05-19T08:41:00.000-05:00It's a descriptive variable, Sentinel. Now we know...It's a descriptive variable, Sentinel. Now we know you are "afraid of the dark", if you get my drift but why not revise the stats with poverty as the controlling variable and see what you get?Ducky's herehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14608115001116619877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-67509211468357911042009-05-01T11:39:00.000-05:002009-05-01T11:39:00.000-05:00You are right; this is getting kind of circular so...You are right; this is getting kind of circular so thanks Renegade Eye, I think I will make have more final thought.<br /><br />Considering that the current demographics place SA at over 90% non-white, it would seem quite obvious that the overwhelming victims of crime- those who bear the brunt of this onslaught of terror- are non-white. They are the real losers here. <br /> <br />Given that it is hard to see how you can equate people highlighting the issue to some kind of hidden ‘racist’ agenda. <br /><br />From a purely clinical perspective, as ‘Pagan Temple’ pointed out, with what is known now, it would be very interesting to see just how many people of all races in SA would want a return to the pre-ANC days, akin, I guess to the plight of Iraq: There may have been anti-freedom despots in power but at least if people eschewed politics they had relative security and personal freedom. ‘Sometimes freedom is just freedom to starve.’<br /><br />Who, knows. But either ways there will be no return to apartheid, and, for the record, nor do I think there should be. But I still do think crime is the number issue facing SA.<br /><br />So I vehemently disagree with you’re contention that yourself and Daniel are somehow in special category of people that you set up for yourself above another category of people that you have also set up – that only you’re group has a honest voice and a legitimate concern.<br /><br />I also vehemently disagree that in raising the issue of rising crime means that some kind of code is being invoked. In fact it is an extraordinary contention. It means effectively means that anyone outside the left should not be taken at their word, that their expressed opinions on subjects like crime are worthless.<br /><br />It also raises a few other interesting questions, the main one being that if you truly believe that for anyone outside the left to raise the issue of crime is actually invoking code for an attack on non-whites then that would preclude the fact that you presume crime to be a largely or a disproportionately non-white problem.<br /><br />That must lie at the root of you’re thinking.<br /><br />And if this is really the case then do people of any political persuasion not have the genuine right to be concerned about it and raise the issue? <br /><br />The fact is that ‘western’ government do their best to conceal the demographics of crime, but it does slip through on occasion and that the worst types of crime in the ‘western’ countries ARE both largely and disproportionately committed by non-whites. <br /><br />I will give just a few examples:<br /><br />In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist the victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.<br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html<br /><br />http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html<br /><br />http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml<br /><br /><br />In Denmark non-whites committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-white, whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…<br /><br />http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html<br /><br />http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html<br /><br />http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece<br /><br />http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab<br /><br />http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/<br /><br />http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html<br /><br /><br />I could go on and on, and include the US too, but I think the point is made that there is a serious issue with crime and yes, race too, that needs to be addressed.<br /><br />I really cannot see how raising the subject can make anyone ‘racist’ by any definition of the word, as long as only facts are dealt with.<br /><br />But I can see how invoking that word ‘racist’ – the very epitome of a neo-witch accusation – can make people very afraid to raise the issue and their legitimate concerns over it, for once that powerful contemporary accusation is levelled the accused is usually tarred for life. Which is pretty much the point, I suspect.<br /><br />As Orwell said: ‘In times of tyranny, telling the truth is an act of rebellion’The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-36267984795223990382009-05-01T11:18:00.000-05:002009-05-01T11:18:00.000-05:00Yes, and who would have nostalgia for such things ...Yes, and who would have nostalgia for such things as Dixie and the Confederacy. A racist, clearly.<br /><br />You're so full of SH*T, it's dribbling out your mouth.<br /><br />Grow the f*ck up!<br /><br />How's this for "code talking:"<br /><br />UP THE BRITISH!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-82432756579940377062009-05-01T10:34:00.000-05:002009-05-01T10:34:00.000-05:00Renegade:
You are right, this is my final thought...Renegade:<br /><br />You are right, this is my final thought, as a circular debate is pointless, no minds will be changed, nothing won or lost.<br /><br />It's funny, reading 'Mein Kampf' I discovered that Hitler had no time for economics and poverty as factors in the state of a nation, he demoted such things to fourth place behind the nation in questions morals, their racial purity and military ability, the economic situation and level of poverty came for him behind all those.<br /><br />Whereas for most of us here, we see economic factors as the initial push behind the fall of dominos, which in South Africa's case is crime and corruption BUT I must stress, there is so much more to that fine nation and I fear in the West we have got to open our minds to the many other factors and elements it contains.<br /><br />Either that or visit and volunteer time there, get to know the people, lose the fear so to speak.<br /><br />Indeed, I hope to do some work in Pollsmoor prison there next year.<br /><br />And I agree whole-heartedly that the reference to white fears, is code for nostalgia for apartheid. Who would have nostalgia for such horror? A racist clearly.<br /><br />As for the BNP Ren, you should see the joke that is their policies, it amounts to complete economic isolation, an end to aid, a building up of the military, complete self-reliance and sending everyone not British back 'home' (maybe that might include me as a German lapsed Jew?). They would be a greater joke if so many people didn't buy into their racist madness in the UK, something I am deeply ashamed of.<br /><br />Pagan:<br /><br />Much of what you say makes sense, the crime in South Africa comes from where all crime stems from, poverty, nothing to lose and hopelessness.<br /><br />Please do remember that most crime is black on black, the self-genocide I referred to, not a great phrase but it does have a ring of truth to it.<br /><br />The other crimes are not racially motivated, I know that may seem surprising but the handover to power and the truth and reconcilliation process was a noble effort to stop revenge attacks and this has been the case.<br /><br />It is just that many of the 'haves' in South Africa are white (having said that, the haves I know over there are actually mixed race or coloured as the South African's term is) so if you are a have-not wanting to steal, mostly your own community can only handle so much theft and crime before it is bare, thus you turn to the source of income, the haves.<br /><br />"The miracle is there are any whites left alive at all."<br /><br />A tough statement. It is not a miracle, it is the joy of humanity, even with the level of poverty and unemployment, not all turn to crime, some turn to means of scraping a living together, of decency, that is the inherent goodness in humanity Pagan. I have worked with these people over there, it prompts the entrepeneur in them, in some it takes them to greater heights to feed the family, in others they resort to crime, many, actually, do nothing at all.<br /><br />If you became very, very poor Pagan, your moral character would fight with the urge to survive, you may not turn to crime; this battle goes on every day in poor nations, not all are swamped with crime that reflects the high level of poverty. It is not an excuse but a reason.<br /><br />Perhaps it is a miracle but a very human one and one that offers South Africa it's glimmer of hope.<br /><br />And on that, my final word as promised.<br /><br />Take care all and if you ever get a chance to visit South Africa, jump at it.<br /><br />Peace.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-63314654915729438952009-04-30T23:35:00.000-05:002009-04-30T23:35:00.000-05:00Sentinel: There is a thread from the Moasley Movem...Sentinel: There is a thread from the Moasley Movement, to the National Front to the BNP. The BNP made a <B>strategic</B> move, to change its language. It even picked some Jewish supporters.<br /><br />Just like the opposition to Chavez in Venezuela, crime is brought up. I've even talked to Venezuelan officials about that problem. When I talk about crime, I'm talking about reforms to curb crime. When the Venezuelan opposition talks about crime, it's to destabilize the government.<br /><br />Crime is a real issue in South Africa. When Daniel or I, talk about crime in South Africa, it's different than the BNP that uses it as code. It means a racialist definition and codewords.<br /><br />I'm expecting my next Middle East post will be a fight. I don't support Zionism, but I don't believe there is a strong "Jewish lobby" either.<br /><br />FJ: Happy Mayday.<br /><br />I didn't support Mugabe's expropriation of white farmers.<br /><br /><I>Could it be that back then the criminals just didn't get much encouragement from a vocal group of deranged apologists willing to "justify" their criminal behavior in the name of "correcting the historical injustices of colonialism" and a renewed commitment to "social justice"?</I>The ANC gains nothing with a high crime rate. They have even under Mbeki increased their budget to fight crime.<br /><br />The reference to white fears, is code for nostalgia for apartheid.<br /><br />Daniel: I'm sure you are aware of what the BNP means when it talks about crime in UK. <br /><br />Crime is code for race and destabilizing the ANC. Even if it's a real problem.<br /><br />Pagan: Overall you are correct. I read in a UK paper, interviews of various white people about crime in South Africa. The views were mixed. Some said they thought London was more dangerous.<br /><br />I think people can add a final thought. Carrying on this post, can only get circular.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-8668420280389336142009-04-30T19:58:00.000-05:002009-04-30T19:58:00.000-05:00o/t - Ren,
I'm likely to be rather too busy celeb...o/t - Ren,<br /><br />I'm likely to be rather too busy celebrating on the 1st of May tomorrow, so I'll perform my annual celebratory dance today. Have a wonderful May Day.<br /><br /><I>"Song for St. Tamminy s Day.<br />"The Old Song."<br /><br />Of Andrew, of Patrick, of David, & George,<br />What mighty achievements we hear!<br />While no one relates great Tammany's feats,<br />Although more heroic by far, my brave boys,<br />Although more heroic by far.<br /><br />These heroes fought only as fancy inspired,<br />As by their own stories we find;<br />Whilst Tammany, he fought only to free,<br />From cruel oppression mankind, my brave boys,<br />From cruel oppression mankind.<br /><br />"When our country was young and our numbers were few<br />To our fathers his friendship was shown,<br />(For he e'er would oppose whom he took for his foes),<br />And made our misfortunes his own, my brave boys,<br />And he made our misfortunes his own.<br />"At length growing old and quite worn out with years,<br />As history doth truly proclaim,<br />His wigwam was fired, he nobly expired,<br />And flew to the skies in a flame, my brave boys,<br />And flew to the skies in a flame.</I>Kawania che Keekeru!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-63934168717081196662009-04-30T18:16:00.000-05:002009-04-30T18:16:00.000-05:00I think a lot of the crime is a natural outgrowth ...I think a lot of the crime is a natural outgrowth of the sudden release of people's previously contained frustrations. It's like putting a pot of beans on to boil in a pressure cooker. If you leave it on for too high for too long, it will explode. Or, if you take the lid off too quickly, it will spew up all over you. I think that's exactly what's going on here, and that is why I can readily believe a lot of the stories about the targeting of white farmers based on race. It's not acceptable or certainly not admirable, but it is certainly understandable. The perpetrators (the ones who are actually acting out of a sense of grievance, not the ones who are just making excuses to pillage and plunder, which would also be a considerable number) are not seeing these as fellow South Africans who just happen to also be white. They are seeing them as the remnants of a class of people that once exploited them and lorded it over them in a cruel fashion. I would be surprised if there weren't some reprisals. It was actually to be expected.<br /><br />Add to all this the fact that there is still a great deal of poverty amongst South African blacks, while many of the white victims are yet seen as prosperous holders of a great portion of the nations wealth, and you have gasoline flung onto the fire as from a hydrant. <br /><br />The miracle is there are any whites left alive at all.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-18825519525332434492009-04-30T17:53:00.000-05:002009-04-30T17:53:00.000-05:00There have been innumerable poor countries during ...There have been innumerable poor countries during the course of world history filled with poverty and tremendous wealth disparities between the various races and social classes. The USA in the 30's comes to mind. Why wasn't crime such a huge problem for Americans then? <br /><br />Could it be that back then the criminals just didn't get much encouragement from a vocal group of deranged apologists willing to "justify" their criminal behavior in the name of "correcting the historical injustices of colonialism" and a renewed commitment to "social justice"?<br /><br />The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The paving company is "the Socialist International".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-16607897147929523012009-04-30T13:40:00.000-05:002009-04-30T13:40:00.000-05:00Daniel, as much as I am loathe to respond to you a...Daniel, as much as I am loathe to respond to you and you're argumentum ad hominem, you insist on adding further facile barbs that should not remain unchallenged.<br /><br />Make no mistake Daniel, you are a fascist who is incapable of any reasoned and linear commentary.<br /><br />You're comments are spewed out with as much dysfunction as your confused and disjointed thinking.<br /><br />FJ is spot on, the only thing you have to say is 'racist' - like some kind of PC tourettes syndrome - to any comment you do not agree with or like. You're entire approach is based upon incessant labels and defamation, not substance and evidence.<br /><br />Just a couple of points prove this:<br /><br />On Larry you say "A ha! Larry knows of your bigotry! You have past form it seems?" at first, and then when the true nature of that "past" is detailed you then say "I have no interest in your past with Larry."<br /><br />Well clearly you was!!! You brought it up!!! But you was ONLY interested when it was to MY detriment. Like I have said you have no integrity.<br /><br />You also waffle on about my 'racist' blog - even though you was unable to counter one contention - and say that is "frequented by far-right" bloggers who "hold racist views" / "BNP supporters" . You can only be referring to 'Britain Awake' who has posted ONLY TWO comments in over 200 POSTS in OVER TWO AND A HALF YEARS of blogging!!! Like I said, you are a liar too.<br /><br />And the only thing for debate in this thread is my comment on this thread - the rest is of complete irrelevance. You and you alone have dragged it so far off topic and into such nasty tones.<br /><br />You ask why I am "obesssed" with the torture of white farmers after you have spent the entire thread trying to ignore or downplay the torture aspect (and even the murder element) - and I have already answered WHY it is SO significant:<br /><br />"No, not only is the figure genuine but the other fact that you keep ignoring is the horrendous torture that accompanies most of these murders too. That is the main reason it has been described a genocide: Because these sustained and targeted attacks are clearly far from just about land."<br /><br />You then go on to dispute the veracity of the reports of these murders and the overriding torture element of them, yet again providing no proof or even rationale as to why these reports would be faked (or could be if you like at the actual reports, footage and photographs) whilst I have provided ample evidence that they have occurred. Again, you have no substance, just baseless bold statements.<br /><br />You say that they are not racially motivated when the overwhelming majority of white farmers in media responses think they are, as does the WORLDS FOREMOST EXPERT on genocide, as does most of the media - hence the very reporting of the fact that they are WHITE farmers. <br /><br />You say that you have spent time in SA and on farms and have friends who are white farmers but none of that has any ring of truth to it, given you're extreme ignorance. You are simply not to be believed.<br /><br />I have been around this globe independently many times Daniel, and I have served in some of the worst places on earth, including Bosnia and Rwanda, and I really do not need the blowhard likes of you telling me that I need to read a book to know about violence, killing, torture, crime or genocide.<br /><br />You are a dishonest time thief with no substance and no contribution to rational debate and you have managed to drag this debate and thread into a personal slinging match.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-23490904855137275942009-04-30T13:28:00.000-05:002009-04-30T13:28:00.000-05:00Danny, please refer to my comment dated 29 April, ...Danny, please refer to my comment dated 29 April, 2009 @ 15:54 above. Thankyou.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-89730918561465956032009-04-30T12:10:00.000-05:002009-04-30T12:10:00.000-05:00Also Sentinal, you confuse links to stories as pro...Also Sentinal, you confuse links to stories as providing facts, you'll have to read Midlands by Jonny Steinburg to understand that the figure you talk of is not based soley on murders but deaths by other causes, the figures come from and are manipulated by a group of far-right leaning farmers looking to generate a certain heat from the plight of farmers in South Africa. <br /><br />I also wonder how the "police, the courts and the press could have got so wrong is amazing." when these are the same institutions you say or so corrupt. Clearly they provided good work here but not on bits you disagree with.<br /><br />You robsession with the torture of the victims is also odd, are you as obsessed by the torture of the far larger number of victims of crimes based on sexuality?<br /><br />The number of gay and lesbian victims of corrective crimes, who are also tortured and killed, numbers well over the 10,00 mark since 94. Are they of value to you also?<br /><br />Also, to be clear, all human life is of equal value, I am not as hung up on skin colour as you are it seems.<br /><br />I also need to point out to you that the attacks based on the white farmers are based on race.<br /><br />They are based first and first most on poverty, then they are based on the idea that the land belongs to those that commit the terrible acts in the first place.<br /><br />Funnily enough, what I learnt from my time on the farms was that the local community want and need a successful farm, the attacks are either carried out by city dwellers looking for easy, isolated targets and money and goods are taken, or the attacks are by those who believe that the land is theres in the first place but rarely do they come from the farming community itself.<br /><br />You should read more Sentinal and perhaps go visit, I have a friend out there who could do with a hand come harvest and the fences all ways need mending.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-70991627185802734082009-04-30T11:59:00.000-05:002009-04-30T11:59:00.000-05:00I've just realised how far this has gone off topic...I've just realised how far this has gone off topic.<br /><br />Sentinal, you claimed the two top issues in South Africa are crime and the deaths of white farmers, this is not the case, because both of these issues, as many of us said some time back before it all got lost, is poverty.<br /><br />Reading back, my racist alarm went off because in a thread about South Africa, you choose to highlight the plight of the white farmers, who make up a sliver of the population (of equal value by the way), you also bang on about the crime as if that is a defining factor of the nation itself and then you suggest that there will be a genocide once Nelson Mandala dies.<br /><br />Then I went to your blog and found more racist tripe. Putting the two and the two together, it was clear you hold racist views regarding.<br /><br />This has been further proven by your additional comments, my mention of the volume of black deaths due to crime and poverty, you dismiss as black on black (which seems odd considering most people in South Africa are black) and not genocide, when one could argue that black South Africans are committing an act of atrocity on themselves.<br /><br />But I get the feeling that you care little for humans with non-white skin and you value them less.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-69206563899073437592009-04-30T11:49:00.000-05:002009-04-30T11:49:00.000-05:00Sentinal:
It is not ironic, as I said to FJ, ther...Sentinal:<br /><br />It is not ironic, as I said to FJ, there is a big difference between the word Nazi and the word racist, surely you can see that?<br /><br />And I see you have no intention of outing yourself as a racist, even though your views, esp. on your own blog are racist and are frequented and supported by far-right bloggers who hold racist views, I see you have a fan of the BNP over at yours.<br /><br />I am not shouting down, you seem to eager to play victim here, which is a classic tactic used by racists.<br /><br />Please don't take this thread any further off topic than it already has. I have no interest in your past with Larry.<br /><br />I also have no interest in much of the rest of your comment, which seems from speed reading to be a mix of personal attack and hyperbole.<br /><br />To cut to the quick, please answer the questions posed you, which you have not at all in the previous comment left.<br /><br />Pagan:<br /><br />The prisons in South Africa are full. Punishment does not work when poverty runs so wild that crime is an option to all.<br /><br />As for people in South Africa wishing things could go back the way they could, perhaps, but that is natural, such change takes time, patience and hard graft.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-67365419710617291942009-04-30T11:38:00.000-05:002009-04-30T11:38:00.000-05:00South Africa is no different than most other place...South Africa is no different than most other places in many regards. You have to crack down on not just violent crime, but all crime, but it should be within the framework of insuring a just and cohesive society. Otherwise it will amount to little more than just mass roundups of people on the streets with many serving long stretches of jail time without ever being charged with a crime or even being able to see an attorney. In the meantime, the crime statistics might stay relatively stable, but they will still be inordinately high.<br /><br />Also, there must be some investment and building of infrastructure, encouragement of business investment and job creation, and some kind of minimal educational system and requirements. Some kind of housing and medical programs would also be a plus as long as it is done right, with a minimum of red tape bureaucracy and an eye to guarding against furthering the spread of corruption. This leads to what is probably the main problem. I have an idea corruption is probably rampant in South Africa, which means there is not liable to be any meaningful change any time soon. <br /><br />And that's too bad, because a simplistic approach that focuses on one problem is really missing the boat. The problems here are just too profound for that.<br /><br />But, infrastructure and job creation will help to "spread the wealth around", to use an overused and sometimes abused term, without redistributing it artificially based on some ill-advised social priority. <br /><br />Once the economy grows, this will help alleviate the crime problem, but only if there is a corresponding push to prosecute and punish crime. Without this, all that happens is there is more money floating around for the ne'er-do-wells to target their attentions on, and it would definitely be a brake on further economic growth, which would stay fairly flat after leveling off at some juncture.<br /><br />By the way, racialism is racism with a smiley face, sort of like that little yellow smiley face with the Hitler mustache the folk-duo Prussian Blue used to wear. They believe in separation of races, but not oppression of peoples based on race or ethnicity. Many claim they are doing no more than promoting pride in the white race amongst whites, just as some black activists, for example, might promote black pride amongst blacks. Of course many of them are racialists as well. Racists too.<br /><br />In South Africa I think its gone well beyond that and into the realm of concerns for personal survival. Even if it is exaggerated to an extent, I am sure the concerns are nevertheless valid ones. It goes beyond worries over survival though. An entire way of life is on the line for these people, a way of life that was by the way not all bad.<br /><br />Sometimes I have to wonder how many South Africans secretly wish things could go back to the way they were. I bet the numbers would be surprising.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-54168732918568880792009-04-30T10:43:00.000-05:002009-04-30T10:43:00.000-05:00Well, Daniel, it is mighty ironic that you find th...Well, Daniel, it is mighty ironic that you find the label Nazi 'deeply offensive' but have absloulty no problem casually throwing around you're own equal footed labels.<br /><br />But in any case you are more a 'fascist' then a Nazi - you think you can shout people down and dehumanise them with hysterical labels and incite others to censor them.<br /><br />(Incidentally, my collision with Larry was actually two years ago and reached just as bizarre fascistic depths over the expression of a differing opinion. <br /><br />In fact when I dared to say that AIPAC were pushing for a US led attack on Iran and linked key officials involved to AIPAC, Larry completely ignored the evidence, and instead decided to repeatedly claim that I had been incestuously sexually abused (to explain my opinion, presumably) and then went on, for no apparent reason to say that he 'turns and spits on my f****ing white race' whilst calling me a racist. Extraordinary by any standard - but I hold no hard feelings, I expect extreme behaviour from extremists.)<br /><br />Daniel, it is in fact you and only you that has decided to factor race into every facet of this debate. I mentioned the plight of the white farmers as it is a huge issue and the worlds foremost expert describes as a genocide.<br /><br />And as for the posts on my blog, you have not been able to counter one fact.<br /><br />You are most certainly a liar Daniel, and again it is fascinating that you find any slight against you outrageous but feel you have the god given right to dole them out at leisure to anyone you fancy.<br /><br />First you claim the attacks on white farmers are no more then land theft. Then you claim that you are an SA expert and that you have spoken to friends who are white farmers and 'they are fine.' Then you are presented with the real picture of over 3,100 murders. Then you claim the figure of murdered white farmers is a distortion, but offer no evidence of this whatsoever, despite the fact that I have provided ample evidence that it is a fact. <br /><br />And then in true alice-in-wonderland fashion you go on to say the figure includes natural deaths too!! Though quite how the police, the courts and the press could have got so wrong is amazing. Perhaps you have missed you're calling as an ME-by-proxy.<br /><br />No, not only is the figure genuine but the other fact that you keep ignoring is the horrendous torture that accompanies most of these murders too. That is the main reason it has been described a genocide: Because these sustained and targeted attacks are clearly far from just about land.<br /><br />Then as a cheap distraction and some sort of moral high-ground attempt you bleat on about how many blacks are murdered and ask if they're lives are not worth as much as the white farmers, when quite clearly you couldn't give a rats arse about the white farmers plight - because they are white.<br /><br />I can tell you that the absolutely overwhelming majority of blacks murdered are murdered by blacks - there is no other element to it then petty crime. No racial targeting, no hidden agenda, no genocide.<br /><br />As I have said, you're integrity is appalling, and you're substance is nill.<br /><br />And as for the issue of crime being a racial one, it is in fact you that implicitly claimed that it was the majority in SA who committed crimes - the majority being black - and also that the apartheid regime had managed to contain crime much more effectively:<br /><br /><br />"Crime was always going to rise with the handover to the ANC, because the poors had been repressed under a violent and despotic regime" <br /><br /><br />Clearly you also have problems with the contrived concepts of 'racism' and 'racialist' - a 'racist' dislikes people from outside his own gene pool without qualification whereas a 'racialist' (a new term for you) believes in the varying attributes of a race and favours one over the other.<br /><br />I am neither. I recognise that race is a reality and that people have varying attributes but, like FJ, I do not choose one set of attributes over another. I question the synchronise compatibility.<br /><br />That freedom of speech 'stuff' is just as valid as the rest of my comments because you had this to say in response to my first comment:<br /><br /><br />"I would watch out for your blog being used as a forum for racist views"<br /><br /><br />Clearly you were implying, inciting and making inference that these 'racist' - aka, as different from you're - views should be suppressed.<br /><br />Finally, it is again very revealing that you feel able to demand that I should I answer you're questions when you completely ignore mine, but I think it was obvious to everyone reading this thread that my answer to Q1 is to combat crime as a priority: This will bring in mass tourism. Business investment. Employment. Social cohesion.<br /><br />And I have already answered Q2.<br /><br />The only thing I agree with you on is that this thread is about SA. I am not in the least interested in playing silly, childish name calling games with you.<br /><br />I have an opinion, and that was presented with reason and evidence.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-7702612395687182692009-04-30T10:21:00.000-05:002009-04-30T10:21:00.000-05:00It is not immaterial, it is context FJ, relevent c...It is not immaterial, it is context FJ, relevent context, just as your quotes are. And the content of his comment was enough to deduce that he holds prejudiced views, which was proven by a thorough reading of his blog.<br /><br />I have not seen any anti-white racism in the comments here and what Ren said was clearly not racist.<br /><br />Again, what you have just left as a comment has no bearing on this thread and the personal nature of it means that, once again, you threaten to destroy the comment form here with tit-for-tat comments about who said what and so forth.<br /><br />I have answered it as best I can, but we will have to agree to disagree on the nature of racism, this is not what this thread is about, so this is my final comment on the issue. <br /><br />I will only comment here on this thread based on the thread topic itself.<br /><br />The truth is FJ, your vendetta against me is personal and blinding you to the issue at hand. I have come to see though that by ignoring you (whilst off topic), it is perhaps for the best.<br /><br />The argument goes in circles because it is personal, not factual, you dislike me and take every opportunity to make that clear but I will not feed the troll any longer. <br /><br />As I said above:<br /><br />"I will not debate with you on issues other than South Africa and it would be best if you did the same."Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-14425074688017002912009-04-30T10:12:00.000-05:002009-04-30T10:12:00.000-05:00What Sentinel writes on his blog is immaterial to ...What Sentinel writes on his blog is immaterial to this discussion or the points he has made HERE. IF you were in any way sincere in your hatred of racist comments made at THIS thread, you would be attacking YOURSELF and REN for what was said above about "whites" and that I've pointed out... BUT NO, YOU DON'T because you and I BOTH know Ren is not a racist. I do not believe you to be a racist. So why do you treat Sentinel any differently? Because Sentinel isn't part of your little "in" group who only speak "affirmatively" of matters "socialist" and "minority?"<br /><br />And I find it curious that you pretend to understand "my judgement" better than I am capable of determining for myself. What's "cloudy" to you is NOT a reflection of MY judgement.<br /><br />And while your first comment on Sentinel's post was for the most part, topical, your second was a complete shoot the messenger diversion. Sentinel brought up "white fears" (which are not entirely unfounded), and you immediately brand him a "vile racist," run to his blog to confirm, and begin the diversion of this thread around the subject of your favorite pet peeve in order to force him to defend himself and personal views on race rather then address the issues at hand and points you've made.<br /><br />All you do thereby is prevent a reasoned discussion, and I ask you to stop doing it. You waste everyones time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-59925930326897187542009-04-30T08:57:00.000-05:002009-04-30T08:57:00.000-05:00No FJ, your personal issues with me are clouding y...No FJ, your personal issues with me are clouding your judgement and I would ask you, politely, to drop them and to approach this thread with some sense of clarity and dignity that it deserves.<br /><br />I have not diverted the thread, I have unpicked the racism in Sentinal's views on South Africa. It is not baseless, unless you share Sentinal's views which you do not it seems.<br /><br />I will not debate with you on issues other than South Africa and it would be best if you did the same.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-90700541357900190492009-04-30T08:52:00.000-05:002009-04-30T08:52:00.000-05:00As I've said FJ, this isn't about mine, yours or S...<I>As I've said FJ, this isn't about mine, yours or Sentinal's views on race but I am glad to see that you have provided a clear and straight answer on the matter.</I>Yet you ONCE AGAIN managed to DIVERT the subject of this entire thread to baseless charges of racism against someone simply trying to contribute to the discussion of South Africa. THANKS FOR NOTHING. Now leave and STOP wasting EVERYONE'S time with your idiotic pet peeve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-54791027124396464132009-04-30T08:28:00.000-05:002009-04-30T08:28:00.000-05:00As I've said FJ, this isn't about mine, yours or S...As I've said FJ, this isn't about mine, yours or Sentinal's views on race but I am glad to see that you have provided a clear and straight answer on the matter.<br /><br />I've not called you a racist, I called Sentinal a racist, based on the writings at his blog and to a lesser degree, the writings in this comment post.<br /><br />May I also point out that Nazi and racist on not on the same level so to speak, nazi is a politcal ideology which you know full well I am not a subscriber too and nothing I write here makes me a Nazi. <br /><br />However, racism is far more common than being a Nazi is, and racism is not a political ideology but a common problem with all humans.<br /><br />Furthermore, Sentinal has provided rich evidence both on his blog and here that he is a racist, a tone that has been picked up by Ren and Larry also.<br /><br />Thus, it isn't tit for tat and also, tit for tat is not a way to act, behave or live. <br /><br />You using Nazi was name calling based on no eivdence, to try and prove a point, Sentinal being a racist is clear in the tone fo his blog and the tone of his comment. There is a big difference.<br /><br />Your evidence was not evidence FJ, it is you interpreting something Ren said and then saying it is evidence. It is your interpretation, which you then attack Ren with, knowing full well he does not hold those views but time is wasted and hot air blown out fighting them. <br /><br />You have done the same with me but have called me a Nazi instead, when you know full well I do not subscribe to the views on the Nazi party.<br /><br />Funny, I'm a marxist, socialist, lefty liberal when it suits you and know, to make a flawed point, I am a Nazi.<br /><br />You, like Sentianl, take elements and then push your own agenda and fears on it. The way you talk it is as if everyone is against you, no doubt here, you are in the minority but your fear is mis-placed.<br /><br />And once again, this has nothing to do with the thread at all.<br /><br />A waste of time.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-7602963767786912442009-04-30T08:15:00.000-05:002009-04-30T08:15:00.000-05:00FJ, do you think that one race is better than anot...<I>FJ, do you think that one race is better than another? A yes or no answer please. Actually, why do I care, this isn't about you or Sentinal's views on race it is about South Africa.<br /><br />I'm gald you admit I'm not preventing him from speaking but I am not preventing anyone from weighing his arguments, people can do as they see fit, as many here have done and feel, roughly, the same as me. I have no control over what they think, they have weighed up his arguments and found them wanting. <br /><br />Stop name calling and using terms such as Nazi, it is deeply offensive.</I>No, I don't think one race is BETTER than another. <br /><br />I'm a a "classical liberal" ala Isaiah Berlin who believes that many values are incommensurable and this leads to the "tragic nature of choice", but also that even nature makes "tragic choices" that cause/ favor certain genetically based environmental adaptations. <br /><br />But back to the point, I find it curious that you find it 'deeply offensive' for me to call you a Nazi, but you do NOT find it similarly offensive for you to call me a racist? Why's that? Tit-4-tat imho. <br /><br />Does me calling you a Nazi make you think that perhaps I'm trying to "shift" or divert the argument and attempt to shoot the messenger at the same time? Because THAT is what you calling ME a racist does. And then NOBODY weighs the original argument, it's been shifted onto a STUPID long-settled and annoying posturing CRAP ARGUMENT. Got it?<br /><br /><I>Where have people in this thread demonized and attacked the socially successful?</I>Ren, "FJ: The revolution was stymied by the Stalinist two stage revolution theory. Instead of finishing the revolution, the leadership of the ANC did a Truth and Reconcilliation Commission. Bottom line is that the white people have the wealth still. Apartheid is an inefficient capitalism."<br /><br />White people have wealth still.<br /><br />Oh, the INJUSTICE of it! It must be "DEMON CAPITALISM".<br /><br />You guys sound like the "abolutionists" of the twenties. All you need now is hatchet and a large bass drum...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-56305406166458299492009-04-30T07:50:00.000-05:002009-04-30T07:50:00.000-05:00FJ:
Ren never said those things, you take somethi...FJ:<br /><br />Ren never said those things, you take something he says and then twist it, making him defend something he never said.<br /><br />You know that Ren is a reaosnable person, he would want no one growing corrupt and exploiting the people, no matter what their skin colour.<br /><br />And I have no idea where your closing rant comes from, it drops out of thin air and has no bearing on the discussion of South Africa.<br /><br />Where have people in this thread demonized and attacked the socially successful?Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-78361183546688886962009-04-30T07:45:00.000-05:002009-04-30T07:45:00.000-05:00FJ:
Please stop doing this FJ, don't spoil this t...FJ:<br /><br />Please stop doing this FJ, don't spoil this thread, that's the whole reason I'm not involving myself in the other ones, the point has been made, job done, game over, finished. <br /><br />Stop spoiling for a fight all the time. And I think you'll find that you're the one having and obsessed with the last word. But as I haven't seen those threads I presume you haven't had the last word? Right?<br /><br />I'm not going to fill this comment section with wasted comments arguing this point with you, just as I haven't in the other threads. This is my final word it.<br /><br />And now, slightly back onto topic...<br /><br />FJ, do you think that one race is better than another? A yes or no answer please. Actually, why do I care, this isn't about you or Sentinal's views on race it is about South Africa.<br /><br />I'm gald you admit I'm not preventing him from speaking but I am not preventing anyone from weighing his arguments, people can do as they see fit, as many here have done and feel, roughly, the same as me. I have no control over what they think, they have weighed up his arguments and found them wanting. <br /><br />Stop name calling and using terms such as Nazi, it is deeply offensive.<br /><br />As for being smart enough to detect racism on your own, this I doubt very much, based only on your contributions to this blog in the comments. I believe, sometime back, you denied it existing and that it was no longer a problem in the US.<br /><br />And at last, we get onto something related to the blog post in question. Which is all I will deal with from now on.<br /><br />I never said crime was not a problem, I have never said the treatment of white farmers was not a problem, I have never said that South Africa doesn't suffer from corruption and I have never said that saying these things makes you a racist. Ever.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.com