tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post3913126685674631725..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Obama, Afghanistan and General McChrystalFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-30731834385431967052010-06-30T23:32:49.003-05:002010-06-30T23:32:49.003-05:00A wealthy developed capitalist country being socia...A wealthy developed capitalist country being socialist, is different than Russia 1917.<br /><br />When class struggle is at an impasse, the government becomes Bonapartist. It is often the conservative phase of a revolution. Napoleon didn't overthrow capitalism, nor Stalin overthrow the nationalized economy.<br /><br />Trotsky and later my tendency, created what we call "proletarian Bonapartism. Marx analyzed it for capitalism, and Trotsky alluded to Stalin being Bonapartist.<br /><br />THe main feature of Bonapartism, is because it's above class struggle, when attacked on the left it goes right and reverse.<br /><br />Bonapartism is usually associated with peasantry.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-69116614190220442332010-06-30T12:30:33.679-05:002010-06-30T12:30:33.679-05:00Or maybe they wouldn't. Maybe some would, whil...Or maybe they wouldn't. Maybe some would, while I suspect most would just watch carefully and see what the long-term results would be. My suspicion is some of them might adopt some parts of it and discard the rest, trying to improve on that first successful model by removing its observable flaws. <br /><br />And then there are going to be some that won't adopt it at all, unless of course its forced on them, no matter how well it appears to work.<br /><br />But whatever the case, let's see that "one healthy socialism" some place first, and see how long it lasts, and whether it can without devolving into Stalinism or "Bonapartism" (whatever the hell that is), and then we'll know for sure. Until then, its just talk and theory. Which, there's nothing wrong with talk and theory, but you just can't put unlimited faith in it until you have something tangible to go by.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-23509383315652442822010-06-30T11:43:46.765-05:002010-06-30T11:43:46.765-05:00There isn't a basis for a healthy socialism. ...There isn't a basis for a healthy socialism. The program of the 1978 government was nationalization, literacy and getting rid of bride price.<br /><br />The Chinese Revolution based itself on the ideas and program of Stalin. It was one party, Bonapartist and based on peasantry. What is interesting is that every Third World anti-colonial revolution that followed, copied that model. If there was one near healthy socialism, all would follow.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-57982074844051089132010-06-30T06:04:33.055-05:002010-06-30T06:04:33.055-05:00Then in that case Ren there's no basis for soc...Then in that case Ren there's no basis for socialism either. Glad you've finally come around to my way of thinking. I'm not proposing a "democracy" under the current definition of the term. You just more or less admitted what I've been saying all along, they need some kind of system that fits with their own particular culture. My idea provides that. <br /><br />You can go on all you want about how great everything would be if Egypt, Iran, and Pakistan were to join in some grand socialist federation, but you know and I know that is not going to happen, certainly not in our lifetimes, and probably not ever. You might as well wait for Jeebus to come back from out of the clouds and there will be peace on earth good will towards men. <br /><br />And, like I said, the crap the US and its allies are trying to pull now isn't going to work either. It's just money, personnel, and resources down the crapper.<br /><br />My plan, while its not perfect, gives them a chance to have peace, security, stability, and prosperity, their way, while respecting their ancient cultures and traditions, which to a large extent actually predates Islam. This is an ancient culture. This helps them and at the same time respects them and then gets the hell out of their way.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-54541211430252185812010-06-29T22:35:26.406-05:002010-06-29T22:35:26.406-05:00I've been reading about the 1978. The Soviets...I've been reading about the 1978. The Soviets role is misunderstood. They were less than pleased having a radical government on their border. The secular people would have been stronger if the Soviets stayed out. Nationalization was in their program.<br /><br />There is no basis for democracy in Afghanistan, if only 10% of the population is working class. Peasantry = Bonapartism.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-84164649445539496122010-06-29T11:33:57.936-05:002010-06-29T11:33:57.936-05:00Yeah, but when Ren talks about socialism, he isn&#...Yeah, but when Ren talks about socialism, he isn't talking about the TVA.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-6717181363267224872010-06-29T09:23:35.348-05:002010-06-29T09:23:35.348-05:00Come on-- socialism has worked all over the place,...Come on-- socialism has worked all over the place, including the United States. What about the Tennessee Valley Authority? You might as well say that capitalism has never worked wherever it's been tried because of boom-and-bust cycles unsupported by a safety net, or because of the ever-widening disparity of income. Show me a perfect political economy and I'll show you a fantasy novel.K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-82464449876213415132010-06-29T06:43:14.418-05:002010-06-29T06:43:14.418-05:00Nationalism isn't what I would prefer to see h...Nationalism isn't what I would prefer to see happen, but it might be unavoidable. The main thing is helping them build peace, stability, and prosperity. I want to point out I've been advocating my plan since well before I knew anything about this mineral wealth. That little bit of recent information just makes it more likely my plan would succeed, where nothing else currently being tried or proposed ever will. <br /><br />I also want to stress that I never claimed the US should control their mineral wealth, or have exclusive rights to it. Naturally, I hope we benefit from it, but its their minerals, they should and do have the right to sell it to whomever they will. <br /><br />In the meantime, "socialism is the answer" isn't a plan, it's a slogan based on a plan that has never worked anywhere its ever been tried. It's not any better-nor, to be fair, any worse-than the right's "we need to kill the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan and build democracy and capitalism". <br /><br />Both are simplistic and makes wild assumptions based on preconceived prejudices that just don't apply here. <br /><br />What about the opium farmers? Does the left have a different strategy than the rights frankly fucking ignorant, "lets burn down the opium fields wherever we find them"?<br /><br />If not, what are they supposed to grow in place of it, Belgian Endive?SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-30981288595492652010-06-29T01:38:55.404-05:002010-06-29T01:38:55.404-05:00Normally, I'd say nationalizing is a no braine...Normally, I'd say nationalizing is a no brainer, otherwise they'd get stolen blind. In this case, though, it's just a matter of who will do the stealing.K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-50148345521925116982010-06-29T01:08:27.372-05:002010-06-29T01:08:27.372-05:00I think all points have been made. Going on will ...I think all points have been made. Going on will only get circular.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-8846720101049270102010-06-29T01:06:52.613-05:002010-06-29T01:06:52.613-05:00Pagan: No country can thrive in isolation.
If t...Pagan: No country can thrive in isolation. <br /><br />If the resources are nationalized, they can subsidized development. That will require planning that is beyond feudal warlords.<br /><br />Without nationalization they'll end up the Congo or Sudan. I could picture the US supporting one warlord, and China another.<br /><br />Pakistan is a player too.<br /><br />An Afghanistan used to be an adjective for a mess.<br /><br />K: The Afghans need to nationalize the minerals.<br /><br />In Venezuela the nationalized oil company gave $75 billion for social services.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-62208412148010834282010-06-28T08:02:35.777-05:002010-06-28T08:02:35.777-05:00K-
"Plus, who needs a trillion dollars worth...K-<br /><br />"Plus, who needs a trillion dollars worth of lithium more than the American people?"<br /><br />The Afghans do, or put more concisely, they need the revenue from it. They have to get it from somebody.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-58246373498566151432010-06-28T07:40:28.008-05:002010-06-28T07:40:28.008-05:00Plus, who needs a trillion dollars worth of lithiu...Plus, who needs a trillion dollars worth of lithium more than the American people?K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-25224194959004550122010-06-28T06:23:50.164-05:002010-06-28T06:23:50.164-05:00Ren-
I almost agree with you in some regards. I&#...Ren-<br /><br />I almost agree with you in some regards. I'm all for the Afghans being in charge of their resources. I don't advocate the US controlling that. But think of it this way. In order for the Afghans to benefit from their resources, they have to sell them to someone, right? <br /><br />Granted, they should probably keep their gold as the foundation of their economy and currency, you can make that case. But one trillion dollars worth of lithium would be worthless to them if they didn't sell some of it, whatever part they don't need for their own use, which would probably be the vast majority of it. The same with the cobalt, iron, and copper. <br /><br />There's a character who comments on my blog, that when I first brought this up he made the remark, to paraphrase, "oh I see you're wanting to control their lithium". Then he went into this rant about me and others wanting to go six thousand miles killing people for oil and "things that aren't ours". But that's not what I'm saying at all. <br /><br />I understand you want to see socialism develop, but that's not really the point. Whatever kind of society they ultimately develop, their resources are going to be a foundation for development. Right now they are something like the fifth poorest country in the world. With the proper development, they can be among the wealthiest countries in Asia, maybe among the top fifty in the world or better.<br /><br />They can't do that by sitting on all those resources, most of which they would have limited use in and of themselves. If we don't help them develop it, someone else will, probably China, maybe Pakistan, maybe even India or Russia. Whoever does-and as sure as night follows day, someone eventually will-would probably be far more prone to exploit them than the US. Granted, without proper oversight, we would too, but it doesn't have to be that way.<br /><br />The Chinese wouldn't care a fig about propping up the Taliban if it meant access, and the Pakistanis would probably automatically turn to them without a second thought. I'd rather trust the tribal chieftains, the traditional rulers of the country, over the Taliban.<br /><br />They are already a semi-feudal country, of sorts. Expecting them to transform at warp speed into a modern democratic society, whether socialist or capitalist, is naive. The reality on the ground is not conducive to such a transformation, at least not in any of our lifetimes.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-40242484304563611302010-06-27T21:08:54.905-05:002010-06-27T21:08:54.905-05:00I'm going to one of these days post about what...I'm going to one of these days post about what imperialism means. Hardly anyone left or right understands. It's mistaken for colonialism.<br /><br />Pagan: I don't see benign imperialists. For the Afghans US and Chinese imperialism would be the same. In Africa China will invest in social programs, but still exploit the workers. They need to nationalize the resources, or they'll end up being the Congo.<br /><br />I don't see going back to pre-feudal formations as a step forward.<br /><br />Both sides profit from the drug trade.<br /><br />K: Obama admits the US has to redeploy from Afghanistan. I use that word because it's more accurate than withdraw. The plan is to make a deal with the Taliban, and leave Pakistan as a caretaker nation.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-43837117386479196162010-06-27T12:18:28.269-05:002010-06-27T12:18:28.269-05:00Actually, what I'm proposing is more along the...Actually, what I'm proposing is more along the lines of how their system really works anyway. The only innovation, aside from building up a legislative framework to make their system more functional while not really changing it, is in encouraging a constitutional guarantee of certain basic human rights. No, it won't be easy, and they would have to agree to it. I'm not advocating forcing it on them, so much as offering it up to them as a solution and hoping they would be able to see the overall benefits. <br /><br />Bear in mind the Taliban resurgence was made possible through the tribal chieftains and warlords, who would probably have preferred to not have to support them. But the Taliban paid them the proper respect due their traditional status in Afghan society, where we have tried to work around them, over them, under them, but seldom with them or through them, and only grudgingly at that. We drove them to the Taliban, it seems. <br /><br />Afghanistan was never a pioneer in the arena of human rights, especially not women's rights, but they were never as oppressive as things devolved under the Taliban. The Taliban is not typical Afghan society or culture, they are a recent phenomenon.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-12997253045693992582010-06-27T10:58:43.739-05:002010-06-27T10:58:43.739-05:00Does Afghanistan have a Cato or Cicero, a Caesar, ...Does Afghanistan have a Cato or Cicero, a Caesar, a Horace? An advanced republic tradition?<br /><br />In one, we're illuminating the larger issue: A couple non-Afghanis debating, albeit in a spirited and reasoned manner, what is best for Afghanistan. Not that we shouldn't have opinions, but you catch the drift.<br /><br />I have my doubts that the average person over there would welcome American intervention into their way life -- no matter how well intended -- any more than I'd like it if a delegation of Afghanis tried to influence the American system, no matter how dysfunctional it had become (and it's pretty dysfunctional).K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-57295784840199634152010-06-26T19:04:30.557-05:002010-06-26T19:04:30.557-05:00I'll reply tonight or tomorrow.I'll reply tonight or tomorrow.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-60967053624683422972010-06-26T18:45:37.562-05:002010-06-26T18:45:37.562-05:00Oh it would be rough going at first, I don't d...Oh it would be rough going at first, I don't doubt that, but I don't see anything else that's going to have any realistic chance of success. It's actually closer to the way they've been anyway, with the exception of constitutional guaranteed rights, which would be the main and maybe only sticking points. Like I said, tribal based democracy was basically the way the Roman Republic was run, before the days of Augustus and the Empire. There were some differences in how tribal rights were assigned and how the votes were apportioned, and in exactly what made up a tribe. I don't think it was so much based on ethnicity like in Afghanistan, which is made up of a lot of different ethnic groups, the largest being the Pashtun.<br /><br />They would get the lions share of seats, so again, its a matter of guaranteed rights to the other tribes. After that, there would have to be some consideration to individual rights and protections.<br /><br />The key is will our influence help smooth things over. If we helped them develop their economy and infrastructure, maybe. With our help, one of the poorest nations of the world can experience a real boom, but we have to establish secure conditions and stability in order to encourage investment. <br /><br />They are sitting on somewhere between one to three trillion dollars, maybe more, of iron, cobalt, copper, and LITHIUM, which would be an essential source of car batteries in electric cars, and also maybe wind turbines and solar panels at some point. If we go about it the right way, we can have something there that would be mutually beneficial to us and to the Afghans. There is nothing wrong with our benefiting from such an arrangement, so long as we make sure the Afghans benefit and prosper, especially if in the meantime we help them build a civil society with the rule of law, rights, security, and prosperity. <br /><br />And then of course there's the opium potential I mentioned. And though I don't know this for a fact, I suspect they might be able to make a mint growing tobacco. <br /><br />If we don't help them develop, somebody else will, probably the Chinese. Obviously I would prefer to see us benefit from all that potential than China, and the Afghans could really build up a world class country with that kind of resources. I'm not so sure the Chinese, or anybody else, would care a fig about how well the Afghans prospered through the use of their own resources.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-32072108774962964592010-06-26T15:11:22.872-05:002010-06-26T15:11:22.872-05:00Sounds like a lot of moving parts to me.
What do...Sounds like a lot of moving parts to me. <br /><br />What do we know about how tribes currently settle differences? <br /><br />To what extent does Afghanistan have a democratic tradition? <br /><br />Has this been done before with any success? <br /><br />How will the tribes respond to even a moderating role by outsiders telling them what to do? Afghanistan is famously insular.<br /><br />What if the interest and commitment isn't there? <br /><br />What about the Taliban, which will oppose tooth-and-nail anything that doesn't leave them in control? <br /><br />If this tribal democracy got established, is NATO willing to guarantee its security on a tribe by tribe, village by village basis? That seems like an awfully tough assignment, a commitment that would be met with skepticism.<br /><br />It's a reasonable idea; I just feel that Western intervention is automatically fraught with difficulties that may be insurmountable.K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-51750204869870076672010-06-26T08:03:43.503-05:002010-06-26T08:03:43.503-05:00Its kind of like the Roman Republic, where votes w...Its kind of like the Roman Republic, where votes were cast according to tribes. The bigger the tribe the more votes the tribe got. So in that respect its sort of like we determine how many representatives our states have in the House according to state population. In this case, the tribal warlords, not the individual voters, would determine who those representatives are who will represent tribal interests, again more like how state legislatures used to choose Senators before the Seventeenth Amendment.<br /><br />Tribal warlords have veto power over everything anyway in a very real sense, so this is just a recognition of reality. This is also why Karzai is accused of corruption. He's not so much corrupt as he is practical. He could not have won without cutting a deal with tribal warlords to deliver the votes. He would have lost otherwise, because not enough people are going to vote against the interests of the warlords to put him over the top if they don't want him there. <br /><br />The major innovation here would be a constitutional guarantee of basic human rights, but here again, its probably not going to look like it does here.<br /><br />For example, the minute you insert some clause guaranteeing freedom of religion and separation of religion from the state, you're going to have people gathering en mass screaming "they are against our religion, they are making war on Islam", yada yada yada.<br /><br />So there's just all these different obstacles you have to work around, and hope things eventually evolve over time. They evolved here from what they were, with regards to slavery, women's suffrage, other things. So it's really naive to think we can fast forward things other places at warp speed. <br /><br />This will sound rough, but its sort of like going into a neighborhood dive filled with smoke and sawdust on the floor with a jukebox blaring country music and people falling down drunk all over the place and fighting, walking up to the bar and saying "I'll have a bottle of your finest Chianti'". <br /><br />I don't mean that to sound like I think everybody in Afghanistan is at that level, but that is kind of the level of their political development in terms of democratic ideals, regarding obstacles in terms of human rights, be that women's rights, education of girls, gay rights, etc. All those things have to be finessed to a greater degree.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-68059984866185784982010-06-25T23:48:23.935-05:002010-06-25T23:48:23.935-05:00The best thing we can do for them and us is to lea...The best thing we can do for them and us is to leave them alone. You can't instill democratic practices by running a summer camp, not when the Taliban will cut someone's nose off just for thinking about showing up to a meeting with Americans. <br /><br />What does a "tribal democracy" look like? Seems like a contradiction in terms to me.K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10222703055177237209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-4170640295651686522010-06-25T22:42:59.834-05:002010-06-25T22:42:59.834-05:00Ren-
"The Taliban has unlimited troops and $...Ren-<br /><br />"The Taliban has unlimited troops and $$ from the drug trade. In the end there will be a deal with the Taliban."<br /><br />That's why we should co-opt the opium trade. If you're really going to win hearts and minds, there's no better place to start than with the opium farmers. Who says the only thing you can make out of opium is heroin. You can do innumerable things with it, and who knows what might come about through research? <br /><br />Even if you pay top dollar for the stuff and turn around and burn it, its still money well spent compared to what's going on now. What's going on now is a hybrid of insane and retarded, and that's going nowhere.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-64635973935881035912010-06-25T22:10:06.897-05:002010-06-25T22:10:06.897-05:00Sonia: The problems with Karzai, are more than ima...Sonia: The problems with Karzai, are more than image; corruption, drug ties and closeness to the Taliban and Iran.<br /><br />Roman: You're way off base. First there are consequences associated with such an act. The end result of the US plan, is for the US to have a major deployment, and believe it or not Pakistan to be caretaker nation.<br /><br />Pagan: The Taliban has unlimited troops and $$ from the drug trade. In the end there will be a deal with the Taliban.<br /><br />Ducky: Like Hitchens who supports whoever will win.<br /><br />K: The US won every battle in Vietnam, and lost the war. They were willing to outlast the US.<br /><br />Pawlenty is in the 2012 mix as well.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-56450400280242701562010-06-25T21:41:53.121-05:002010-06-25T21:41:53.121-05:00Why does everyone who votes for Obama become a &qu...Why does everyone who votes for Obama become a "liberal Democrat" (yeah, like Paul Volker LMAO). Maybe McChrystal just didn't care to vote for someone whose brains are fried and put a pole dancer on the ticket.<br /><br /> My take is that he has always been dismissive of civilian authority and even encouraged that dismissiveness.<br /><br /> He had to go. Now we can get on about bringing "freedom" to a country where our greatest achievement to date is helping 10% of the adult population become heroin addicts.Ducky's herehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14608115001116619877noreply@blogger.com