tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post2511967735045573252..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Iran: The 18th Brumaire of Mahmoud AhmadinejadFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-68433703698568650872009-06-18T15:46:17.140-05:002009-06-18T15:46:17.140-05:00I want to end this thread here. On to the next.
...I want to end this thread here. On to the next.<br /><br />FJ: It is not implausible at all, that the CIA would support the mullahs against possibly socialism. The Russians and their agents the Iranian Communist Party supported the Shah. They didn't lead opposition.<br /><br />The CIA and moderates brought to power, the mullahs.<br /><br />Gert: I don't vilify Galloway, but don't agree with his approach. He is anti-imperialist, in a way that is not constructive. <br /><br />He is hostile to Trotskyism.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-45336961193186201782009-06-18T09:07:14.620-05:002009-06-18T09:07:14.620-05:00Ren:
"True that some things don't stick ...Ren:<br /><br /><i>"True that some things don't stick against Gallaway. He is a hack. In practice he is pro-Stalinist and pro-Bonapartist dictators."</i>---<br /><br />What makes me laugh about that relatively small part of the European Left (the Eustonites) that still support Israel is that they claim Galloway is a scab who supports dictators. But who is 'moderate' and who is 'extremist' in the region is defined entirely by the US and only by means of the criterion: pro-Israel = 'moderate' (Egypt, Jordan), anti-Israel = 'extremist, rogue' (Iran, Syria). Yet none of these four are well-functioning democracies and neither is Israel! So we get the Eustonites singing the praises of a despot like Mubarak, all the while scolding Galloway for accepting that Iran is an emerging democracy, which clearly it is.<br /><br />A festival of fools, really...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-58375324239758391952009-06-18T07:57:28.551-05:002009-06-18T07:57:28.551-05:00I concede that Charlie Wilson (D) funded the Islam...I concede that Charlie Wilson (D) funded the Islamic mullahs in Afghanistan against the USSR against the wishes of the CIA at the time (who didn't want to get involved). Any enemy of the USSR in a strategy of "containment" becomes your friend. <br /><br />I admit that the CIA funded these mullahs through the ISI in Pakistan. But these were largely "local/regional" mullahs, and not Internationalist/ fundamentalists with aspirations of restoring a global Muslim caliphate (ala bin Laden).<br /><br />I admit that Nassar was leaning towards the USSR and some CIA money may have ended up in the Brotherhood's hands. But the Brotherhood has never been directly funded and/or run by the CIA. Again, the Brotherhood has "extra-territorial ambitions" of restoring/erecting a global Mulsim Caliphate.<br /><br />America funded the Shah in '53 as a regional counter/containment to the USSR as well. And when it became clear that he was about to fall, they funded and supported the democratic secular MODERATES in Iran's government AGAINST the mullahs in Qom. They did NOT support the "Stalinists" or "mullahs" as YOU claim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-9165267711781203182009-06-18T02:01:32.660-05:002009-06-18T02:01:32.660-05:00FJ: The CIA played a role in the Islamization of t...FJ: The CIA played a role in the Islamization of the ISI in Pakistan, it armed the fundamentalists in Afghanistan, and paid for Islamism everywhere.<br /><br />The US supported the Muslim Brotherhood as a force against Nasser, while Israel funded Hamas against Fatah.<br /><br />It's logical that the CIA would support mullahs against potentially in 1979, could have been a socialist movement. The people in the streets built soviets, without communist leadership.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-9483050858304993562009-06-17T22:29:49.463-05:002009-06-17T22:29:49.463-05:00Bob: It is physically impossible to count votes in...Bob: It is physically impossible to count votes in a country like Iran, as fast as they were counted, considering outlining areas.<br /><br />Sentinel: I've agreed with you two days in a row.<br /><br />Gert: I believe someone as John Bolton would pray for Ahmadinejad to win.<br /><br />True that some things don't stick against Gallaway. He is a hack. In practice he is pro-Stalinist and pro-Bonapartist dictators.<br /><br />I do know polls varied in Iran.<br /><br />The CIA realized the Shah was toast. They brought into power the mullahs, with the help of Stalinists. The original movement in the streets were spontaneous like the ones now.<br /><br />Jams: The Iranian rulers are split. Hard to say what's next. Will cosmetic changes on top stop the movement?<br /><br />June 26th is an international day of protest.<br /><br />FJ: Again the CIA knew the Shah was done. They brought the mullahs into power, with the Stalinists and some from the Shah's government. They were scared of people in the streets.<br /><br />You forget about "Peaceful Co-Existence" and the Stalinist idea of socialism in one country. The one country wasn't Ethiopia or Somalia. These states were friendly to the Soviets, and with Bonapartist, nationalist governments. Socialism is not their motivation. They just want power. The Russians never allowed socialist revolution. They were about "national liberation."<br /><br />The communists in Iran were killed by the mullahs.<br /><br />South Yemen was a workerist-Bonapartist government, with extreme Stalinists at the head.<br /><br />Again Stalinism is the counterrevolution.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-63677904211359801242009-06-17T17:09:32.325-05:002009-06-17T17:09:32.325-05:00Back to matters on Iran tomorrow's Day of mour...Back to matters on Iran tomorrow's Day of mourning protests may well be the defining moment. This could be the day when the authorities try to hit the protestors even harder than they have already<br /><br />If there asre other readers wholive close to London, then there are daily protests outside the Iranian Embassy in London . The main protests are from 6-8pm. Knee allowing I will try to get therejams o donnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17315325008175184363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-10452940467027656412009-06-17T15:41:24.020-05:002009-06-17T15:41:24.020-05:00Jams:
The full quote you're looking for is:
...Jams:<br /><br />The full quote you're looking for is:<br /><br /><i>If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life. If there was a Soviet Union today, we would not be having this conversation about plunging into a new war in the Middle East, and the US would not be rampaging around the globe.</i><br /><br />Many around the world felt some time after the collapse of the USSR that the previous bipolar mutual deterrence between the two superpowers wasn't such a bad thing (for world peace) and that <i>in that specific sense</i> the end of the Cold War wasn't positive for the world's peace divident. Some will still feel vindicated today: would the war in Iraq really have happened had the USSR been around and had opposed it? That's a legitimate question, IMHO.<br /><br />Despite the US's support for Israel being largely a Cold War by-product, that support only hardened after the collapse of the SU.<br /><br />On Tiananmen Galloway is indeed ridiculously wrong.Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-60503404810790965692009-06-17T14:21:36.717-05:002009-06-17T14:21:36.717-05:00This is the Same Galloway who said "I think t...This is the Same Galloway who said "I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life"<br /><br />The man who denies that there was a massacre at Tianamen Square?<br /><br />His comment on the protestors in Iran were little more than a sneer.<br /><br />Anyway, I digress the situation in Iran is not fizzling out, The protests are not just localised in Tehran. <br /><br />The protestors are not just Mousavi supporters, not anymore.. Ihe situation has gone rather beyond that. For many of those on the streets, including friends of mine, this is about real change in Iran.<br /><br />The result is not certain. Sadly the only thing that is inevitable is that there will be a lot more blood spilled before it is overjams o donnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17315325008175184363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-67176297038392046472009-06-17T13:17:21.204-05:002009-06-17T13:17:21.204-05:00Jams:
"Given his track record I would not be...Jams:<br /><br /><i>"Given his track record I would not believe Galloway [...]"</i><br /><br />You see Jams, that's how smear campaigns work, starting of course with New Labour's massive own smear campaign against Galloway for his (entirely correct) stance on the Iraq war. Ever since, the man's been fair game for all kind of allegations, none of which really stuck (apart from the inevitable accompanying mud, of course).<br /><br />On the 'fizzling' of the counter-demos he is in all likelihood wrong but if you read some of his smearers you'd believe Galloway's an Ahmadinejad stooge: but he doesn't even support the man (quite the contrary). Galloway is a hate figure for the pro-Zionist 'centrist Left' and everything that's to the Right of it. The fact that he organised a successful convoy of aid to the stricken Gazans further fuels this hatred (but never call a Zionist racist, or else...)<br /><br />Ren:<br /><br />The CIA supported the Mullahs??? The coup against Mossadeq in 1953, sure, but the revolution???Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-48736386378152521142009-06-17T12:26:24.831-05:002009-06-17T12:26:24.831-05:00Galloway has described the protesotrs as a liberal...Galloway has described the protesotrs as a liberal elite and said that the protests will fizzle out. Err. I wonder how he will square the reality of the situation in next week's Daily Record column.<br /><br />Given his track record I would not believe Galloway if he said the sky was bluejams o donnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17315325008175184363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-25662913300062680362009-06-17T11:57:54.821-05:002009-06-17T11:57:54.821-05:00Ren,
You also said that the CIA helped put the mu...Ren,<br /><br />You also said that the CIA helped put the mullahs in power....<br /><br /><br />BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!<br /><br />No one was more shocked than the CIA. Ask their ex-station chief in Tehran, <a href="http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,95404,00.html" rel="nofollow">Tom Ahern</a>, one of the THREE U.S. intelligence operatives in Iran during the revolution and eventual guest of the Ayatollahs for 444 days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-21306867387823758812009-06-17T11:44:42.619-05:002009-06-17T11:44:42.619-05:00If you want others, I'd be more than happy to ...If you want others, I'd be more than happy to walk through Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia, etc... and any other ex-Soviet client state in Africa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-74460046049058263622009-06-17T11:39:19.544-05:002009-06-17T11:39:19.544-05:00What? How can you say something like that, and not...<i>What? How can you say something like that, and not give an example?</i><br />Okay, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Yemen" rel="nofollow">South Yemen</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-48645320069938329152009-06-17T11:33:44.564-05:002009-06-17T11:33:44.564-05:00I'm inclined to believe the vote was rigged bu...I'm inclined to believe the vote was rigged but there are many non-Ahmadinejad supporters who claim it might not have been: Mondoweiss has a credible source, Galloway doesn't buy it, Fisk only partially.<br /><br />And I wouldn't foster too many illusions about the 'reformist' Moussavi either.<br /><br />No, forget squabbling over the (s)elections for a minute and let's just hope the protests lead to greater internal freedoms and loss of power of the theocracy.<br /><br />For the Zios though it must have been an astonishing spectacle: if anything the landslide victory of Ahmadinejad would have answered all their prayers of being able to keep Iran on the frontburner and Palestine on the backburner. And then some Iranians go and steal the stolen election! Tee-hee...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-73934496746921091562009-06-17T06:02:51.087-05:002009-06-17T06:02:51.087-05:00In all honesty, no one has seen any actual evidenc...In all honesty, no one has seen any actual evidence as yet that I am aware of; but on the balance of probability it seems extremely unlikely that Armadinejad polled two thirds of the votes - especially in Mousavi home regions - and that such a vast poll could be realistically processed in an hour to declare him the victor.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-6089387216393528572009-06-17T03:53:32.500-05:002009-06-17T03:53:32.500-05:00Ren, you are probably right about the dishonesty o...Ren, you are probably right about the dishonesty of the original count, sadly, there is no evidence to support that. At least none that I have seen reported.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10812133595782131796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-16414942288477813962009-06-17T01:44:18.973-05:002009-06-17T01:44:18.973-05:00Bob: It is impossible for the count to have been h...Bob: It is impossible for the count to have been honest, simply because the results came too quick. The administration in Iran, has to have a recount. It is scared.<br /><br />Daniel H-G: The post said the revolutionary movement in Iran, is in its infancy. It compared the situation to Russia 1905. In 1979 the masses established soviet type structures. They were discouraged by the Stalinists.<br /><br />The UK press has been better than the US.<br /><br />Pagan: I like Sullivan. He is in a quagmire, being an antiwar Republican. He is great on certain issues. <br /><br />FJ: I said the Stalinists helped put the mullahs in power.<br /><br /><i>Face it, Ren, since '89 when the wall fell... every formerly "communist" movement in the Middle East has FOLDED and transitioned into an Islamic movement. Why? Because the USSR went broke and the only source of weapons and cash for "revolutionary causes" were from local Islamic fundamentalist families like the bin Ladens or poppie growing warlords in Afghanistan.</i><br /><br />What? How can you say something like that, and not give an example?<br /><br />Sentinel: <i>Its a pity that none of them demonstrate this hard when Iran is stoning people to death or hanging children</i><br /><br />Good point.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-12449625385798505012009-06-16T17:14:22.083-05:002009-06-16T17:14:22.083-05:00And now "I'm-a-dinner-jacket" suppor...And now "I'm-a-dinner-jacket" supporters are out in force! What a tangled web.<br /><br />Its a pity that none of them demonstrate this hard when Iran is stoning people to death or hanging children.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-75231288217091700042009-06-16T12:17:03.235-05:002009-06-16T12:17:03.235-05:00btw - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad makes a terrible choice ...btw - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad makes a terrible choice for "savior/Napoleon" of the Iranian revolution. He lacks the requisite Shi'a "bloodline" that a Moqtada al Sadr offers. And to the Shi'a tradition, bloodline is everything.... which explains Khameini's REAL weakness.<br /><br />Give Moqi a religious degree and he'd have Iran and Iraq re-united into a Shi'a caliphate faster than you could say "Jackie Robinson."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-30356030704028972462009-06-16T12:07:17.773-05:002009-06-16T12:07:17.773-05:00FJ: Look up my post by Ted Grant about Iran. It wa...<i>FJ: Look up my post by Ted Grant about Iran. It was written in 1979 just before the revolution. The mullahs were brought to power by some of the Shah's aides who believed his days were up, the CIA and the Stalinists, who supported the Shah. The action in streets, started with no party leadership.</i><br /><br />Indeed, but the only backing the Revolutionaries got, as cited by the self-same article was from the local Communists in Iran's universities, despite Ted's non sequitur stating that the USSR "stayed out of it".<br /><br />Communists in the streets backing revolutionaries in Iran and the USSR sitting on the sidelines disinterested? Now THAT makes no sense at all.<br /><br />You guys helped put the mullahs in power, and then you lost control of the students AND Khomeini.<br /><br />Face it, Ren, since '89 when the wall fell... every formerly "communist" movement in the Middle East has FOLDED and transitioned into an Islamic movement. Why? Because the USSR went broke and the only source of weapons and cash for "revolutionary causes" were from local Islamic fundamentalist families like the bin Ladens or poppie growing warlords in Afghanistan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-56392341285903202482009-06-16T10:50:43.300-05:002009-06-16T10:50:43.300-05:00Andrew Sullivan is doing yeoman's work coverin...Andrew Sullivan is doing yeoman's work covering this issue on his Atlantic blog, the Daily Dish. Sorry, don't have the link handy but it shouldn't be hard to find.SecondComingOfBasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336586430250490679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-39622990144771940972009-06-16T09:49:34.767-05:002009-06-16T09:49:34.767-05:00The Guardian have a live feed here and latest news...The Guardian have a live feed <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/16/iran-uprising" rel="nofollow">here</a> and latest news suggest that the Iranian govenment have cracked down on foreign press<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8103269.stm" rel="nofollow"> here.</a><br /><br />Things are not looking good at all.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-89077861957606105592009-06-16T09:23:19.084-05:002009-06-16T09:23:19.084-05:00"I'm sure every spy agency is represented..."I'm sure every spy agency is represented"<br /><br />No doubt at all; but bear in mind too, that actual spying is only a small part of the 'intelligence communities' work, and probably the least sinister.<br /><br />I am not sure why some people think that this is some sort of communist revolution either; similar protests occurred in '99 and '03 and they also had nothing to do with any kind of Marxist motivation. This one is larger, I would suspect, because not only are the results so blatantly unbelievable, but many Iranians are scared that Ahmadinejad has taken his stand against the US and Israel too far that there is a very real danger that war, invasion and possibly even nuclear attack could follow if Ahmadinejad stays in place.<br /><br />And from a purely logical standpoint, would muslims not have irreconcilable differences with communism in any case? With communism / socialism being atheist in nature and with disdain of the 'absolute morality' founded upon Religion?The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-62490641274561195132009-06-16T05:47:46.338-05:002009-06-16T05:47:46.338-05:00Ho hum LeftHenry, So Ahmadinejad is vocal on anti...Ho hum LeftHenry, So Ahmadinejad is vocal on anti imperialism. That Iran is a reppresive theocratic regime is utterly immaterial, I presume.<br /><br />Oh but then it does not matter what such leaders (and ther puppet masters) do to their own people just so long as they are "anti imperialist"jams o donnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17315325008175184363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-78263895256449763232009-06-16T05:19:14.069-05:002009-06-16T05:19:14.069-05:00A good post that ends badly with the now classic p...A good post that ends badly with the now classic punchline that Iran will become Marxist.<br /><br />I know that would have to be in their somewhere...Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.com