tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post114958822792769749..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Haditha is the result of your battlefield ethicsFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1150344054614072012006-06-14T23:00:00.000-05:002006-06-14T23:00:00.000-05:00I am so late to take a part in commenting about Ha...I am so late to take a part in commenting about Haditha that propably no one will ever see it. However, I just got to do it, because I just visited a site called Mike's America and it brought me on a verge of a depression. I am so glad that there still are Americans like you whom haven't totally lost their humanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1150027957593126552006-06-11T07:12:00.000-05:002006-06-11T07:12:00.000-05:00Haditha, assuming it's true, is not a result of sp...Haditha, assuming it's true, is not a result of specific battlefield ethics of particular soldiers or even of a branch of the military. It's a result of a broader mentality whereby Iraqis are essentially disposible. This mentality drove the Iraq aggression in the first place ("We going to 'liberate' them whether they like it or not. And then stay as long as WE, not they, feel like.") <BR/><BR/>What Iraqis want is completely incidental to the policy. That's the mentality: the wants, hopes, desires and ultimately lives of Iraqis are incidental.<BR/><BR/>I mean how else to explain that when one American soldier dies, our nation weeps. But when dozens of Iraqi civilians dies, we shrug. I'm sorry, but if I have to choose between pulling for the GI with the massive weaponry and protection or the woman/child who is unarmed, the latter will get my sympathy every time. I'm a human being first, American second. Too many of my countrymen have that backward.<BR/><BR/>I've said for years that when you put people in an unreasonable situation, there's a good chance they will act in unreasonable ways. It's human nature. The great failing of Americans is to believe all of our soldiers are completely exempt from human nature.<BR/><BR/>That is why you should only put soldiers in unreasonable situations unless it's absolutely necessary, not simply because some dictator says our president's mama wears combat bootms.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08797243971179303040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1150027770427655572006-06-11T07:09:00.000-05:002006-06-11T07:09:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08797243971179303040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149879266385714022006-06-09T13:54:00.000-05:002006-06-09T13:54:00.000-05:00I agree wholeheartedly that this is not "collatera...I agree wholeheartedly that this is not "collateral damage." These are babies being murdered. It seems we learned nothing from My Lai.Jaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10012407144589065853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149874420122839002006-06-09T12:33:00.000-05:002006-06-09T12:33:00.000-05:00I will call to you when the shredded spiritsOn thi...I will call to you when the shredded spirits<BR/>On this day’s light gaze back at slaughter<BR/>And thunder their liquid wheels to the moon.<BR/>And I will ask you to kill yet again and again.<BR/>I will call to you from the arid cusp of charity,<BR/>And when the slaughtered fortitude cries out,<BR/>Howls to the moon sipping of the sun’s blood,<BR/>You shall collect tokens on the streets of Haditha.<BR/>SILENCE!<BR/>Do not speak weary soldier!<BR/>Your ears are not yours!<BR/>Your mouth no more!<BR/>Your eyes are not your eyes!<BR/>Your feet are not your feet<BR/>They each belong to me!<BR/>Traded for your sweat and tears,<BR/>Bartered for your flesh and bone,<BR/>Given me by men of bold vision!<BR/>SILENCE!<BR/>I will call to you when the tattered spirits<BR/>Upon the diminishing light stare back at murder<BR/>And thunder their liquid wheels to the moon.Mark Prime (tpm/Confession Zero)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04683863540465969835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149871014532317082006-06-09T11:36:00.000-05:002006-06-09T11:36:00.000-05:00How can you have a political program - without arm...How can you have a political program - without arms - calling for the removal of the occupation when the political system itself grows out of the occupation.<BR/><BR/>That seems impossible to me.John Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515280071887632569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149870945365320202006-06-09T11:35:00.000-05:002006-06-09T11:35:00.000-05:00Beatroot,I support the Iraqi Mujihadeen bombing an...Beatroot,<BR/><BR/>I support the Iraqi <I>Mujihadeen</I> bombing and killing Uncle Sam's little StormTroopers as well as the collaborator Iraqis working with them.<BR/><BR/>As they did in Vietnam, Uncle Sam uses PsyOp 'terrorists' (Zarqawi) to create a picture of the resistance so that they don't gain the full-throated support of those living here in Disneylandia.<BR/><BR/>Don't believe the Pentagon hype about the resistance. Their mission, objective, and tactics have been clear an open since they began the guerrilla war. <BR/><BR/>Read the Resistance Reports.John Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515280071887632569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149869632336006552006-06-09T11:13:00.000-05:002006-06-09T11:13:00.000-05:00"I would support secular non-sectarian Iraqis who ..."I would support secular non-sectarian Iraqis who have a political program to get the occupiers out" - good point. <BR/><BR/>The problem is that since the Balkan war, these wars have been fought against civilians. Bosnia was not less horrible, but with less coverage. Just reading that new mass graves were discovered near Kamenica. <BR/><BR/>But the issue is that the victims are mostly or exclusively civilians: and this is not a US strategy. Such is the world nowadays, it seems.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149854890800437372006-06-09T07:08:00.000-05:002006-06-09T07:08:00.000-05:00Troutsky,Long after the US military has jumped des...Troutsky,<BR/><BR/><I>Long after the US military has jumped desperatly on the last helicopter leaving Baghdad</I><BR/><BR/>Is this an allusion to Vietnam ? The same Vietnam that now welcomes all capitalist investment, including American one ?<BR/><BR/>I agree brute military force isn't the most effective way to spread American domination. There are other, more effective methods...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149831776284065872006-06-09T00:42:00.000-05:002006-06-09T00:42:00.000-05:00Thanks for the link Ren. I have been looking for a...Thanks for the link Ren. I have been looking for a group in Iraq to support that is anti-imperialist and anti-Islamist.Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230080850680753260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149821426049591582006-06-08T21:50:00.000-05:002006-06-08T21:50:00.000-05:00Maryam's comrades in Iraq, are secular, socialist ...Maryam's comrades in Iraq, are secular, socialist and "Third Camp", opposing both imperialism and Islamism. See: <A HREF="http://www.socialismnow.org/index1.html" REL="nofollow">Left Worker-Communist Party of Iraq, The</A>.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149816983317358312006-06-08T20:36:00.000-05:002006-06-08T20:36:00.000-05:00I totally agree. In every war, its the innocents w...I totally agree. In every war, its the innocents who suffer the most.SugarBitz n MilkyBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05838793955182640387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149797026898890092006-06-08T15:03:00.000-05:002006-06-08T15:03:00.000-05:00But Troutsky - what part of the insurgency would y...But Troutsky - what part of the insurgency would you support? <BR/><BR/>Sunni nationalists (who are bombing shias)? Ex baathists who are bombing shias? Or maybe al-qaeda? Shia Islamic malitia?<BR/><BR/>That's the long and short of the armed struggle. Ordinary Iraqis want nothing to do with these people. <BR/><BR/>So why support the armed srtuggle if a victory for the armed stugglers is not in the Iraqis' interest? <BR/><BR/>I would support secular non-sectarian Iraqis who <I>have a political program to get the occupiers out</I>.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149796233302133952006-06-08T14:50:00.000-05:002006-06-08T14:50:00.000-05:00Perhaps justice will be served. It appears the mar...Perhaps justice will be served. It appears the marines' involved gave a false story about the deaths being largely accidental and the result of shrapnel from a bomb/grenade.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly enough, some footage/photos were uncovered that proves that many of the <B>shootings</B> were at a close range, some even in people's homes. Needless to say, I think we can rule out the 'accident' option.<BR/><BR/>Truly though, I'm surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened more often. When I heard about this I immediately thought of that scene from <I>Platoon</I> in the village. When soldiers are on the field too long you start to get more incidents like this.<BR/><BR/>If anything, this is a testiment that we need to pull out now.<BR/><BR/>Great entry, Renegade Eye. If you're at all interested, I recently wrote about the same thing in my blog, 'The Red Mantis'. It would be cool to have you stop in and comment sometime.<BR/><BR/>-DaveMC Fanonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04966360672502646830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149771734020596132006-06-08T08:02:00.000-05:002006-06-08T08:02:00.000-05:00The question of how and why we on the left might w...The question of how and why we on the left might want to support a "resistance" is so complex that it would require a much larger space than a comments column.Thrust into an abyss where non-violent resistance is no longer feasable there are no good options but carefully selecting the "least worst" is crucial.Long after the US military has jumped desperatly on the last helicopter leaving Baghdad, our generation will grapple with the blowback from this insane "experiment"of neo-liberal militarism.Im sure there are some forms of Iraqi resistance we should support and others we must reject.It is not monolithic.troutskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020298501632120830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149763693451220222006-06-08T05:48:00.000-05:002006-06-08T05:48:00.000-05:00A senior officer who served in Iraq worries "the c...A senior officer who served in Iraq worries "the combination of Haditha and Abu Ghraib will be the My Lai of this generation"<BR/><BR/>The pictures in time of next week are horrific and include bodies of the dead including a small child, and that of blood on the floor at one of the houses, blood-splattered walls inside a family home.<BR/><BR/>This is being compared with the 1968 "My Lai" massacre in which US soldiers murdered more than 500 Vietnamese.?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01992276117548193938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149762121659679102006-06-08T05:22:00.000-05:002006-06-08T05:22:00.000-05:00M Brown: how do you feel comfortable supporting th...M Brown: how do you feel comfortable supporting the Iraqi 'resistance'? This isn't your old fashioned national liberation struggle, you know. This is a mish-mash of all sorts of groups, most with 'political' message at all. <BR/><BR/>Much as I hate the war, the 'resistance' has become dominated by jihadists. Would you be pleased if they won? I wouldn't.<BR/><BR/>That's the problem for us anti-war people. Who to support?beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149761530228417412006-06-08T05:12:00.000-05:002006-06-08T05:12:00.000-05:00This may interest you.I regularly do a stop the wa...This may interest you.<BR/><BR/>I regularly do a stop the war stall on Hounslow High Street. Several weeks ago we were approached by a US soldier who was between tours in Iraq. He was extremely confrontational, but also argumentative in the sense that he was interested in our point of view. We covered everything in our arguments, but after half an hour he wasn't convinced and threw our table over, before running off.<BR/><BR/>Two weeks later he came back and we argued some more. What we had said before had been ringing around his head. He didn't agree with us fully, but was ready to listen a bit more. Some soldiers come from a background that sits very easily with the positisions they expect to find themselves in. He was one of them. His base motivation for being in the Army was the belief that America was acting as an umbrella of protecton for the western world. <BR/><BR/>You can imagine how popular culture and right wing media have firmed this point of view up in his head over the years.<BR/><BR/>The point is that he had been to Iraq and felt uneasy about it. He had probably had freinds killed, and didn't like the fact that people were questioning it. That is why he threw our table over. <BR/><BR/>When he came back he appologised. He had an erge to throw the table over again the second time, but left before he did. We are not phsychiatrists, but we managed to turn his point of view around significantly within the space of about an hours conversation over two meetings.<BR/><BR/>This only happened because of certain factors.<BR/>1./ The military families speaking out against the war.<BR/>2./ The proven moral bankruptcy of the war, brought about by a campaign against it that included everyone who could march.<BR/>3./ Massive demoralisation of troops, who see the stop the war movement as generally supportive in the sense that they don't want the troops out there in the first place.<BR/><BR/>I support the Iraqi resistance, but I also fight for an atmosphere whereby troops feel that they can disobay orders with support from movements at home. This soldier only spoke to us because we weren't judgemental. You only got fragging in Vietnam after the anti war movement was indelibly linked to the veterans movement.Montmarcey Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18441968152478681206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149750777975510782006-06-08T02:12:00.000-05:002006-06-08T02:12:00.000-05:00it was a great piece.it was a great piece.Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230080850680753260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149742657980894792006-06-07T23:57:00.000-05:002006-06-07T23:57:00.000-05:00Roman: that this has been 'covered up' is not real...Roman: that this has been 'covered up' is not really in dispute. Naughty boys.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149694004856344762006-06-07T10:26:00.000-05:002006-06-07T10:26:00.000-05:00beatroot,Thank you for the lesson in irony but the...beatroot,<BR/>Thank you for the lesson in irony but the term "our boys" in my comment was meant only in its true and single sense and is a genuine term of endearment. <BR/>Your comment "it is a cover up" is preliminary. <BR/>Let me give you my version of speculation as to what might have happened.<BR/>Soldiers receive fire from a house from some distance. They in turn return fire with overwhelming force not really knowing who is in the house and knowing only that hostile fire was emanating from it. They secure the site and find the results upon entering the house.<BR/>It is tragic and is probably not unique during modern day warfare. What makes it unique in this case is that the insurgents/ hostiles in the house had absolutely no regard for the family that lived there.<BR/>Just like your description "our naughty boys" I remind you that the insurgents have their own "naughty boys" and are able to use events like these to further their aims.romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15988548647887978919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149663085210443292006-06-07T01:51:00.000-05:002006-06-07T01:51:00.000-05:00This is so strange. Today, I was watching the BBC ...This is so strange. Today, I was watching the BBC news, and started to feel really depressed about the idiotic mayhem in Iraq that was played in front of my eyes. Why, after all this time instead of getting numbed by the steady flow of these raw footages of blood and gore, exactly the opposite is happening? I guess, this is what Rummy calls being a bleeding heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149660536815531212006-06-07T01:08:00.000-05:002006-06-07T01:08:00.000-05:00Roman said: I suggest that until such time as all ...Roman said: <I>I suggest that until such time as all the facts have been examined that we give "our boys" some consideration in the form of "the benefit of doubt". </I><BR/><BR/>Problem is, Roman, that 'our naughty boys' (these inverted commas are ironic, by the way - I know Americans are not meant to 'get' irony. 'Our boys' is what they call them in the UK Sun tabloid newspaper) have been trying to cover the whole thing up...so getting evidence is very difficult. And the fact of the cover up - and it is a cover up - suggests they have been very naughty indeed...<BR/><BR/>Ren: I know what you mean about the content of the anti-war protests...the leading slogan was 'Not in my name' which is not a political demand at all but a cop out. <BR/><BR/>But demos don't by themselves do anything. It has to be part of a political movement with demands and clear arguments about principles...I don't see that in the anti-war movement at all.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149651647386945842006-06-06T22:40:00.000-05:002006-06-06T22:40:00.000-05:00How can anyone be shocked that our troops have com...How can anyone be shocked that our troops have committed these acts when our own President and Att General have zero respect for the Geneva Conventions, human rights, international laws, and Muslims? Bush and Abu Ghraib Gonzales don't believe that the Iraqis are worthy of such consideration, so do we honestly think that the policy in Iraq encourages otherwise from our military?<BR/><BR/>I am the daughter of a Marine who served two tours in Vietnam, and the friend of a Marine who got back in November from serving in Iraq.<BR/>Both said nearly identical statements about serving during guerrilla warfare: They went into the military b/c college was not a possibility, and they wanted to serve their country, BUT they didn't sign up to kill civilians, and they weren't trained to shoot women and children. They were trained to shoot at other troops and they didn't expect their govt to put them in that horrific situation for absolutely worthless reasons, but the govt did... twice. When you view the inhabitants of the nation you occupy as less than human, you yourself become less than human.Tinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08472987991553964064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149651206120665552006-06-06T22:33:00.000-05:002006-06-06T22:33:00.000-05:00I think the problem the mass mobilizations against...I think the problem the mass mobilizations against the war, was the leadership. Unlike the antiwar movement against Vietnam, where the demonstrations were organized around the concrete demand, "Bring the Troops Home Now." Demonstrations need a focus. The problem wasn't the form, but the content.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you, it's not the clash of civilizations nonsense, that should be supported by progressives.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you, in the abstract; about the more Coalition troops that die, the better it's for the rest of the world. It is a benefit for Venezuela, that the US is bogged down in Iraq. I don't think, we gain anything in organizing, calling for the death of US/UK troops.<BR/><BR/>With elections coming in the USA, the fake antiwar Dems, will be crawling all over.<BR/><BR/>The form of mass street demo is correct. We need to change the content.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.com