tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post114901743330680576..comments2023-11-05T03:12:10.925-06:00Comments on Renegade Eye: Manifesto of the Third Camp against US Militarism and Islamic TerrorismFrank Partisanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149570540433880362006-06-06T00:09:00.000-05:002006-06-06T00:09:00.000-05:00I could imagine working with NoI, in a single issu...I could imagine working with NoI, in a single issue coalition. I would even work with Democratic Party operatives in a situation like that.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149567631223156392006-06-05T23:20:00.000-05:002006-06-05T23:20:00.000-05:00Renegade,On your point about NoI being hostile to ...Renegade,<BR/><BR/>On your point about NoI being hostile to class organization, I agree to an extent. <BR/><BR/>So does United for Peace and Justice. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work with them. <BR/><BR/>The problems with NoI's lack of class consciousness is easily overcome by the reality on the ground. When they hold huge events like the Million More March, the bulk of participants are not themselves NoI but they generally are very much of the working class. <BR/><BR/>Workign with NoI doesn't mean agreeing with every one of their positions. It means recognizing that they have a different type of support - working class Black people - than most Socialist organizations do. And the class dynamics of Black people living on Uncle Sam's Plantation demand that we collaborate whenever possible. If that means working with the NoI to do so, so be it.<BR/><BR/>After all, their politics on questions like Venezuela, Darfur, Cuba, and Palestine are a lot better than UFPJ.John Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515280071887632569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149567264999515172006-06-05T23:14:00.000-05:002006-06-05T23:14:00.000-05:00CB, of course, has no problem with Uncle Sam layin...CB, of course, has no problem with Uncle Sam laying siege to Iraq - slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people including pregnant women and the handicapped.<BR/><BR/>Nor does he take much issue with Apartheid Israel's 200-or-so nukes always-already on standby so that any lunatic Zionist can vaporize the entire region.<BR/><BR/>He calls such trivialities like the threat to world survival posed by Apartheid Israel and Uncle Sam "supposed Western imperialism".<BR/><BR/>But when Iran - a democratic nation who doesn't occupy other people's land - wants to develop nuclear energy, the line is drawn.<BR/><BR/>I mean, one has to have limits. God, I love hypocrisy.John Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515280071887632569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149567098325822422006-06-05T23:11:00.000-05:002006-06-05T23:11:00.000-05:00CBI agree with you completely in dismissing this m...CB<BR/><BR/>I agree with you completely in dismissing this manifesto (however much you are denigrated by idealistic romantics of a cosy leftist Latin American dream (that never exissted)).<BR/><BR/>Nationalism and personal greed drive history as I discovered at the "sharp end".<BR/><BR/>PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149555652953007382006-06-05T20:00:00.000-05:002006-06-05T20:00:00.000-05:00Ren,You could be right!Ren,<BR/>You could be right!?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01992276117548193938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149555461384699422006-06-05T19:57:00.000-05:002006-06-05T19:57:00.000-05:00CB,What about telepathic communication? Perhaps so...CB,<BR/><BR/>What about telepathic communication? Perhaps something will present itself there. Nothing can progress unless somebody says something. Certainly an opporutnity will never present itslef without it. :)<BR/><BR/>Regards?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01992276117548193938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149553443972676802006-06-05T19:24:00.000-05:002006-06-05T19:24:00.000-05:00Just a Note: Blogrolling.com is down today, so my ...Just a Note: Blogrolling.com is down today, so my blog links disappeared.<BR/><BR/>Obukun: CB is almost to the right of Atilla the Hun, that is not a criticism, just a description.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149552496151855082006-06-05T19:08:00.000-05:002006-06-05T19:08:00.000-05:00Obokun,To rail against supposed Western Imperialis...Obokun,<BR/><BR/>To rail against supposed Western Imperialism and to call for the mullahs to stop pursuing nukes is vapid and pointless. You must accept the former without evidence and the latter is wishful thinking...hope is not a strategy.<BR/><BR/>I do support the young people of Iran who strive for a free and as Ren might suggest cleric-free voice. However, even the young Iranians support nuclear development, not from a sinister bias as the clerics hold, but out of a sense of nationalism.<BR/><BR/>It is not that I don't support a peaceful solution, it just hasn't presented itself. The rest is common (and yes simple-minded) worker's unite rhetoric. But thanks for asking!Craig Bardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02247430738711822531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149551699581543502006-06-05T18:54:00.000-05:002006-06-05T18:54:00.000-05:00CB,Is there really, absolutely no sense in any sin...CB,<BR/><BR/>Is there really, absolutely no sense in any single point of the 3rd camp manifesto to it???? Or are you just in a bad mood! <BR/><BR/>Some very valid points have arisen from this post but I am just curious to know why anything that aims to support humanitarian sentiments should attract generalised sweeping statements that sum it up as “Simple minded drippy rhetoric with no value” which is in itself of limited value. Was <A HREF="http://molarawood.blogspot.com/2006/06/che-guevara.html" REL="nofollow"> Che Guvaras’</A> pursuit of the empancipation of the poor based on “Simple minded drippy rhetoric with no value” <BR/><BR/>Maryam Namazie and others writing about humanitarian issues must be applauded.<BR/><BR/>If everyone is as pessimistic as this, there is definitely going to be no more of the likes of <A HREF="http://molarawood.blogspot.com/2006/06/che-guevara.html" REL="nofollow"> Che Guvara</A><BR/><BR/>If the proposed war on Iran goes ahead, the sentiments of right wing parties would be satisfied.?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01992276117548193938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149519778065980912006-06-05T10:02:00.000-05:002006-06-05T10:02:00.000-05:00Simple minded drippy rhetoric with no value. Othe...Simple minded drippy rhetoric with no value. Other than that, it wasn't bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149464339318793382006-06-04T18:38:00.000-05:002006-06-04T18:38:00.000-05:00ReneI'm again seeking to comment on your blog and ...Rene<BR/><BR/>I'm again seeking to comment on your blog and say something positive.<BR/><BR/>But the sheer student like idealism of this manifesto is breathtaking.<BR/><BR/>It defies the ways countries "think" which is national self interest. See my blog post on this.<BR/><BR/> In Iran, as in the Philippines, people power is a tool of powerful factions including the Church/Islam and the military.<BR/><BR/>I have to agree with the Roman and (even) Sonia in backing pragmatism and the an awareness of the threat to the West from terrorism over an idealistic view of some type of Westernised democracy in Iran.<BR/><BR/>PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149462998228683282006-06-04T18:16:00.000-05:002006-06-04T18:16:00.000-05:00Hamas was supported financially by Israel, as foil...Hamas was supported financially by Israel, as foil against early leftist Fatah. Fatah is still secular.<BR/><BR/>If US/UK invaded Iran, the signers of the manifesto, would very critically support Iran. No question what is more important. Islamists still have to defeated in the long run.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149462596581599182006-06-04T18:09:00.000-05:002006-06-04T18:09:00.000-05:00The Nation of Islam is hostile to organizing along...The Nation of Islam is hostile to organizing along a class basis. They are not active like they used to be. Believe me they are anticommunist.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149459704502281702006-06-04T17:21:00.000-05:002006-06-04T17:21:00.000-05:00Maps,Spot on in your analysis. I totally agree.Re...Maps,<BR/><BR/>Spot on in your analysis. I totally agree.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Renegade,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you about the NoI and Malcolm. However, in the immediate aftermath of Katrina only they were able to bring Black people together. They did so as the driving force behind the Million More Movement and in spite of a campaign of vilification and demonization by Zionists.<BR/><BR/>And Farrakhan's rhetoric - while not perfect - demonstrates an internationalist consciousness and an interest in bringing oppressed people together in Unity. While not without problems, they can be worked out in the course of struggle. For now, however, he's an ally.John Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515280071887632569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149449004489280672006-06-04T14:23:00.000-05:002006-06-04T14:23:00.000-05:00Even if Nation of Islam, is just a reactionary res...Even if Nation of Islam, is just a reactionary response to imperialism, they were the murderers of Malcolm X, along with government agents, so couldn't be ignored. The Black Panthers had gun fights with Ron Karenga's supporters.<BR/><BR/>Iran has two significant problems, attack from without from imperialism, and reaction within from Islamism. Even if Islamism is a reaction to the secular government overthrown by US/UK in 1953, it still is an enemy to be dealt with by Iranian revolutionaries.<BR/><BR/>I signed the manifesto, although I disagree with point six. I wrote to Maryam, asking her to explain it better.<BR/><BR/>Roman: Reading is not United Statesian, as Canadians say. Sorting out tendencies in Iraq is not easy. Now that secularism has been set back Sharia courts are back. People are assasinated for wearing short pants.<BR/><BR/>Islamophobic no, secular yes.<BR/><BR/>I think Iran aspires to be the first Islamic superpower. That is why it wants nukes. Reading look closer at what it says about nukes. It doesn't support US or Israel having nukes, or their efforts against Iran.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149443411720326832006-06-04T12:50:00.000-05:002006-06-04T12:50:00.000-05:00maps,The rally chant you quoted; "Down with Saddam...maps,<BR/>The rally chant you quoted; "Down with Saddam, victory to Iraq, death to the Americans"<BR/>You comment that the chanters did not see any contradiction but do you? Are you an American?<BR/>The reason I ask is that most bloggers would like to know what the actual writer/blogger thinks and not just a nuetral and sanitized event report. Can you please enlighten us?romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15988548647887978919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149442653163243392006-06-04T12:37:00.000-05:002006-06-04T12:37:00.000-05:00That was a reference to the Manifesto, not the pre...That was a reference to the Manifesto, not the previous poster's leaflet, BTW. Ahem.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149442600972072322006-06-04T12:36:00.000-05:002006-06-04T12:36:00.000-05:00I'd like to know what's left wing about it? It's a...I'd like to know what's left wing about it? It's all very well, but it's a program that any liberal could write - or endorse.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149442461255044032006-06-04T12:34:00.000-05:002006-06-04T12:34:00.000-05:00Unfortunately this is a call for capitalist govern...Unfortunately this is a call for capitalist governments, including the imperialist governments of the First World, to wage economic war on Iran, a poor semi-colonial country which has already suffered too much from imperialism. <BR/><BR/>It is also an Islamophobic document, because it presents Islamic fundamentalism as an equal evil to imperialism, when in fact Islamism is only a reactionary response to imperialism. <BR/><BR/>As an analogy, imagine if a group of US liberals put out a statement condemning the Ku Klux Klan and the Nation of Islam equally. While the second organisation does hold reactionary views, it is clearly the movement of an oppressed people looking to defend itself. The same can be said for Islamist movements like Hamas. A certain subtlety is necessary here.<BR/><BR/>There is no comparison from Iran to South Africa or Israel, which were/are both effectively armed bases of imperialism, US beach heads in the hotsile settings of the Arab world and then-revolutionary southern Africa respectively.<BR/><BR/>There is no chance that the US and its allies like Israel will ever dispose of their nuclear weapons unless their societies are fundamentally reorganised by social revolutions. Such a prospect is obviously not on the horizon, so in practice the demand for nuke disarmament only effects vulnerable enemies of the US like Iran and North Korea. Iran has already offered to stop its nuclear programme if Israel disarms and the US promises not to attack it; the US blocked Iran's offer from being debated at the UN. Iran has every right now to pursue a nuke weapons programme in self-defence. <BR/><BR/>Leftists should support the struggles of Iranian workers and oppressed groups against the mullahs' government, but also support the right of the Iranians to defend themselves from US aggression. Shortly after the invasion of Iraq I attended a rally of exiled Iraqis which featured the chant 'Down with Saddam, victory to Iraq, death to the Americans'. The exiles wanted to get rid of Saddam, but also wanted to beat the US. They didn't see any contradiction between those two goals. Nor did the great Marxist thinkers. Writing in the 30s, Trotsky said that in the event of a hypothetical war between democratic imperialist England and fascist Brazil, he would back fascist Brazil, without giving political support to the government of that country. <BR/><BR/>For a leaflet I wrote defending Iran's right to nukes, see:<BR/>http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/41874/index.phpmapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18209906216745532870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149430580578563472006-06-04T09:16:00.000-05:002006-06-04T09:16:00.000-05:00"saying no to political Islam" may be a counter-pr..."saying no to political Islam" may be a counter-productive ban on a very wide ranging category.Islamism manifests itself in many forms, and may include a true working class conciousness.<BR/><BR/>It also seems to me we must realistically analyze this "international community" from which the Islamic Republic must be "expelled". Is this a political category or a form of advanced capitalism, a part of the hegemonic structure designed to maintain control and order.troutskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020298501632120830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149427660897708442006-06-04T08:27:00.000-05:002006-06-04T08:27:00.000-05:00Love your blog..I might have to actually think..fo...Love your blog..I might have to actually think..for a change...might take me more than a couple of minutes to read..Nohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929187212992920070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149413696611260102006-06-04T04:34:00.000-05:002006-06-04T04:34:00.000-05:00That is right, and if my memory doesn't fail me, A...That is right, and if my memory doesn't fail me, Argentina was mentioned as an alternative. <BR/><BR/>As for embargos and isolation, they never work. In Iran's case I doubt they would precipitate a regime change - they result in an impoverished population.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149363482448555532006-06-03T14:38:00.000-05:002006-06-03T14:38:00.000-05:00Google Zionism + Uganda.Google Zionism + Uganda.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149361910174208252006-06-03T14:11:00.000-05:002006-06-03T14:11:00.000-05:00Ren,Good point about keeping focused. Historically...Ren,<BR/><BR/>Good point about keeping focused. <BR/><BR/><I>Historically Zionists thought of Uganda, as the ideal location, for a Jewish state</I><BR/><BR/>Are you kidding ? I think it's a joke. Besides, why bothering Ugandans instead of Palestinians ? <BR/><BR/><I>I don't like point six of the manifesto</I> <BR/><BR/>Good...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11704331.post-1149361522695388952006-06-03T14:05:00.000-05:002006-06-03T14:05:00.000-05:00I wrote a note to Maryam explaining the discussion...I wrote a note to Maryam explaining the discussion.Frank Partisanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536211653082893030noreply@blogger.com